Hydrostatic shock question

[Dildobaggins]

If this is in the wrong place please let me know.

Was looking at Berger's website for 7mm and 30 cal bullets, both say something like, "The "hydrostatic shock causes most animals to drop immediately." Read a few articles and got some conflicting results. Some say it does not even exist. If it does, what would most likely create a hydrostatic shock? The faster the better? Or does it have to do with the mass of a bullet? Looking for wisdom on the subject.

Thanks

 

[SupressYourself]

I don't know if it's technically "hydrostatic" but look at the shock the ballistics gel takes here:

In one case it flies off the table. That's the "shock" that knocks animals over.

 

[fdkay]

hydrostatic shock CAN be a thing with rifle bullets.
Velocity is required.
It is NOT something you count on happening, basically, the temporary stretch cavity is so large and abrupt, it damages other organs, specifically stuff like the liver.

 

[308pirate]

hydrostatic shock CAN be a thing with rifle bullets.
Velocity is required.
It is NOT something you count on happening, basically, the temporary stretch cavity is so large and abrupt, it damages other organs, specifically stuff like the liver.

Exactly. And hydrostatic shock is definitely not a thing with handgun cartridges

 

[Baron23]

And hydrostatic shock is definitely not a thing with handgun cartridges

Now, my friend....you know a 100 times more than I do about handguns (well, I really don't shit about them) but going back to the mid-90s when living in south FL (job transfer and I got out of there as fast as I could) there was a skeet shoot at Markum Park west of Ft Lauderdale. The shoot was sponsored by Torus USA as...I think his name was Bob Morrisey...was President of that company at the time and shot out of Markum.

For high overall prize, he had a 454 Casull revolver (well, really a hand cannon if you need to stop an armored car in its tracks , I suppose).

Point being that he also had a looped vid showing in the club house of a slow mo' shot of him shooting a 500+ lbs boar in central America (Costa Rico seems familiar) somewhere with this thing.

And you could clearly see the shock wave of the impact ripple thru the animal and when it reached the other side a blast of mud came off. Pretty amazing vid to me at the time (well, maybe still).

I can't imagine that shock wave propagated thru the body without doing a lot of damage.

Now, I'm not so sure that this monster is really a handgun...I sort of think it should be mounted on a tracked vehicle (LOL), but this vid gave me a lasting memory.

Cheers

 

[fdkay]

Skin and organs are pretty flexible, it takes an enormous amount of energy to cause damage to surrounding tissue just by the mechanism of hydrostatic shock.
The temporary cavity stretches so far, it causes tears and shock.
The .454 might, indeed, be powerful enough to cause such damage.
Of course, if your "pistol" is an 11.5" AR, that too, at close range, can result in hydrostatic shock injuries.
I would think he was referring to classic handguns, in classic, self-defense calibers.

 

[Matches Malone]

I think there is enough autopsy evidence to suggest that hydrostatic shock exist. As suggested above, with auto loading service pistol calibers, since their ballistics tend to be horrible at best relative to rifles, the amount of peak pressure wave magnitude is dependent on ke and penetration.

So, in theory you want something contradicting, fast and heavy..haha

Hence why magnum rifle cartridges in the 200+ grain category use to be loved amongst elk hunters who would take longer shots….before the 6.5 creedmoor crowd started fagging up the hunting world.

 

[Dildobaggins]

My apologies. I way referring to rifles and medium or big game like deer. Going to be using a 300 SAUM this year with 150 grain pills going at about 3100 fps.

 

[fdkay]

 

[KYAggie]

I don't know if it's technically "hydrostatic" but look at the shock the ballistics gel takes here:

While that’s a very interesting video and while it shows “hydrostatic” shock very well, I disagree with their conclusions at the end. They should take their little 6.5 manbun match bullet, set those gel blocks up at the yardages people think they can shoot an animal at, and run their test. What happens a close range can not be extrapolated to what will happen when that bullet is going 1700 fps or less. The fact is hunting bullets are designed and tested to reliably expand over a certain velocity range; most down to around 1500-1800 fps depending on the bullet. Match bullets are not. Berger, I believe, has tested their “hunting“ bullets to some degree and they are relying on those bullets violently expanding which in theory should cause a quick death. The reason you read varying reports on them is because everyone’s mileage may and does vary. You won’t find many varied reports on Nosler Partition’s, Swift A-Frame’s, Swift Scirocc‘s, Nosler Accubonds and Accubond LR’s, not Nosler Balistic tips and Hornady SST’s and many other hunting bullets as long as they are used within their designed velocity expansion range. Often, when there is a negative report, it’s because of bullet misuse such as sticking a 150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip in a 300 RUM and trying to shoot a elk at 75 yards or trying to shoot an elk at 750 yards with a 30-06 with 180 grain Nosler Partitions. Neither will work very well in the stated instances; one will likely disintegrate while the other will not expand. Both are outside the designed parameters of the bullet.

Years ago in Handloading magazine they had an extensive report testing a wide range of bullets over measured velocities until they failed to expand. The included poster with the recovered bullets was very interesting. The match bullets they tested were very unreliable as far as expansion went and it was unpredictable at what velocity they would fail to expand as it was completely random.

I know, hunting bullets may not be as accurate as match bullets and typically don’t have as high a BC. BUT, they all have plenty enough BC and accuracy to use within legitimate ethical hunting ranges. To me, if the animal is beyond 500 yards and it’s not a varmint, I need to keep HUNTING and get closer.

There are many wonderfully made hunting bullets in the 150 grain weight range. I recommend picking one of those and staying away from a match type bullet.

Ok, I’ll get off my soapbox.

 

[SupressYourself]

... They should take their little 6.5 manbun match bullet, set those gel blocks up at the yardages people think they can shoot an animal at, and run their test. What happens a close range can not be extrapolated to what will happen when that bullet is going 1700 fps or less....

They did. It's part 2:


Spoiler: They both did very well at 2200 FPS. Neither did well at 1800 FPS. Minimum impact velocity is somewhere between the two -- probably about 2000 FPS, which is right around 600 yards for most manbuns.

 

[hlee]

Most of the comparisons figures you read about (knock down power, being my personal favorite) are being touted for one of 2 reasons- and those reasons only. To drive magazine sales (clicks in 2022) or to drive rifle/cartridge sales...

 

[db2000]

The buzzing in the background video is brutal but he does a great job explaining the wound trauma from GSW.

 

[KYAggie]

I disagree with this statement though. First hand experience shows nosler ballistic tips at high velocity into a neck absolutely do not fail. With a shoulder shot maybe you are right, but neck or behind the shoulder will be absolutely wonderful. Probably create that hydrostatic shock the op is looking for.

I get it and you’re probably right as long as they get in. I like ballistic tips a lot, but tend to pick a different bullet on large game if the muzzle velocity is over 3200 FPS. I like the Accubonds even better especially with high muzzle velocities.

 

[KYAggie]

They did. It's part 2:

Excellent, I’m glad they did additional testing. Interesting results.

 

[tthomp302]

Excellent, I’m glad they did additional testing. Interesting results.

Look up Longrange hunting group on youtube. The guy does gel tests with varying velocities using match bullets. ELD-Ms and Berger Hybrids are really exceptional bullets. I'm not one to shove it down people's throats, but I do think it would behoove most people to research it a bit more.

 

[KYAggie]

Yeah, I started poking around looking for more videos after seeing Part 2. Those guys have done a lot neat testing. Of course none of it, from what I could tell, envolves simulating going through bone first. That would be the real test. I wish they would run the same test on Nosler ABLR’s vs the Partition. That would also be interesting. I can see why people choose the Berger and ELD-M for deer sized game, but I would still want something heavier built for elk and larger.

 

[Dildobaggins]

The buzzing in the background video is brutal but he does a great job explaining the wound trauma from GSW.

Started watching this last night and fell asleep while watching it. Man, oh man that was a f****d up night of sleep if I ever had one.

 

[tthomp302]

Yeah, I started poking around looking for more videos after seeing Part 2. Those guys have done a lot neat testing. Of course none of it, from what I could tell, envolves simulating going through bone first. That would be the real test. I wish they would run the same test on Nosler ABLR’s vs the Partition. That would also be interesting. I can see why people choose the Berger and ELD-M for deer sized game, but I would still want something heavier built for elk and larger.

Check this video out. It Shows Berger hybrids and their performance through an elk shoulder bone.


Great performance really.

 

[tthomp302]

Check this video out. It Shows Berger hybrids and their performance through an elk shoulder bone.


Great performance really.

I realize this one has the hide and not bone, but any of his tests that say whitetail, elk, or high shoulder, all show bullets being used through hide and bone.

 

[AKMarty]

In the context of hunting what is your goal? If the objective is meat, slow it down and use a heavier projectile. If you are killing pigs for the carrion to take care of, then fast and light works.

Shot a couple deer with a 375 H&H and was surprised by how little meat was damaged by the shock. The bullets expanded and removed a vital from function and they never went more than a step. My trusty 30-06 w lighter bullets seemed to waste a lot of meat. Bruising and bleeding surrounding the wound entrance and exit.

Any ER/trauma docs, medics, emt’s can talk about the trauma surrounding the actual wound.

 

[Dildobaggins]

In the context of hunting what is your goal? If the objective is meat, slow it down and use a heavier projectile. If you are killing pigs for the carrion to take care of, then fast and light works.

Shot a couple deer with a 375 H&H and was surprised by how little meat was damaged by the shock. The bullets expanded and removed a vital from function and they never went more than a step. My trusty 30-06 w lighter bullets seemed to waste a lot of meat. Bruising and bleeding surrounding the wound entrance and exit.

Any ER/trauma docs, medics, emt’s can talk about the trauma surrounding the actual wound.

Hunting would be the goal. Specifically white tail. I usually fill out all my tags, and my dogs eat a large portion of my meat. They usually get the front shoulders, neck, and sometimes some hind roasts. My wife is going to be using my 6mm creedmoor this year and I'm using a 300 SAUM, both of the projectiles I use in them, haul ass with the what I load, so maybe I'll slow em down a bit. But then again, not to sound like a douche, but if I see one of the large bucks roaming the property, I'm not concerned about losing some meat.

 

[hlee]

... if I see one of the large bucks roaming the property, I'm not concerned about losing some meat.

That's why god invented doe tags...