Speed, definitely kills.
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Hydrostatic Shock/Remote Incapacitation
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I read that a while back. Thing is Courtney cites Suneson & Hanson’s pig wounding study. In that study projectiles were fired into a pig at 1500 meters per second ( I think that’s the number) But that study stated that no remote wounding like Courtney described occurred. Now was that because it was with steel spheres and not an expanding projectile?
I don't think hydrostatic shock was really any kind of factor, at least not in the sense that is considered for large game. With a varmint bullet like the VMAX you are looking for maximum velocity so that the bullet fragments and the violent expansion and shrapnel cause the most damage possible. Hitting the woodchuck in the head you now had bone fragments acting as shrapnel as well. Due to the other factors involved (velocity, bullet design, fragmentation, shrapnel) it is hard to study just one aspect.
Hydro as in water ripples, nope. Shooting into guts n muscle isn’t like shooting into water like hydrostatic shock. Hydraulic shock might be a better explanation? Moving thicker material so fast it snaps spines? In the hunting world the terminology for terminal ballistics is: The pop, the bubble, and the penetration.
Totally intuitive verbiage attributed to observation. Not everyone is a physimachist, but they are observers! Dropped an African Ankole Watusi with 308 Win 137 Hammer Hunter bullet 3000fps. 6” below spine. No bullet or fragments hit the spine. Dropped dead in tracks. CNS disruption.
I was just saying that in the woodchuck sized animal that had its head explode it would be hard to observe any hydrostatic (hydraulic, whatever term you want to use) effect that would be comparable to what we see in larger game species. I was not equating it at all to any observed effect on larger, denser animals whether there was bullet fragmentation and bone shrapnel. Now if you were to try this with a varmint style bullet at higher velocity that would be a better comparison but nobody is going to recommend that.Hydro as in water ripples, nope. Shooting into guts n muscle isn’t like shooting into water like hydrostatic shock. Hydraulic shock might be a better explanation? Moving thicker material so fast it snaps spines? In the hunting world the terminology for terminal ballistics is: The pop, the bubble, and the penetration.
Dropped an African Ankole Watusi with 308 Win 137 Hammer Hunter bullet 3000fps. 6” below spine. No bullet or fragments hit the spine. Dropped dead in tracks. CNS disruption.
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Totally get what you said. Just trying to add clarification/knowledge/shenanigans on the terminal ballistics stuff. I also wanted to show you my meat.
We may be getting "hydraulic shock" confused with "hydrostatic shock".
The former has the ability to break bone and certainly disrupt the CNS, while the latter is attributed to incapacitating without doing either.
Few are able to perform a necropsy to the level that it would take to truly discern...so we generally just assume based upon wound channel location.
The one good thing is that most animals do not simply "give up" when shot...reducing the chances of a psychological effect on the kill.
I'm out of my league after this....
The former has the ability to break bone and certainly disrupt the CNS, while the latter is attributed to incapacitating without doing either.
Few are able to perform a necropsy to the level that it would take to truly discern...so we generally just assume based upon wound channel location.
The one good thing is that most animals do not simply "give up" when shot...reducing the chances of a psychological effect on the kill.
I'm out of my league after this....
Well, probably not interested in seeing your meat... But your harvest looks nice. Was that the bullet wound across the top of the back?Totally get what you said. Just trying to add clarification/knowledge/shenanigans on the terminal ballistics stuff. I also wanted to show you my meat.
I saw that one a while back as well, interesting but the problem is those Strausburg Goat Trials study he is referring don’t have authors. I have looked all over for a version with the authors.
One of the best publications that I read on the subject was “Wound Ballistics the I don’t remember the number edition #” by Beat P Kneubeuhl. His assertions are somewhere in between Courtney’s and Facklers.
I've always wondered if some of those shots that cause the animal to just drop are caused by the round hitting a rib on the way in or out (or both) with the shock travelling up to the spine causing enough disruption to cause temporary paralysis, then the animal bleeding to death before it recovers.
I've never thought to check when I've had one on the ground though.
I've never thought to check when I've had one on the ground though.
There were numbers too. And Charts.
Fyi, they shot 580 animals packed with testing equipment and studied them, compiled all that information to share.
Similar to your words. Describing your harvest.
Yeah, I saw it mentioned, have read that just wanted to share. As they went a little further into it.
Sounds like they wanted to stay anonymous. Being as they were basically shooting animals for research, for the guberment, I can understand why.
Hydro-Static Shock, you say?
HYDRO: adjective Informal. of, relating to, or furnishing water, water power
( https://www.dictionary.com/browse/hydro )
STATIC: adjective Also stat·i·cal . pertaining to or characterized by a fixed or stationary condition. showing little or no change: a static concept; a static relationship. lacking movement
( https://www.dictionary.com/browse/static )
Therefore HYDRO-STATIC denotes water sitting still.
So how does the SHOCK-WAVE occur from a stationary condition of water? It doesn't!
The shock comes from movement of the water.
KINETIC: adjective pertaining to motion. caused by motion. characterized by movement
( https://www.dictionary.com/browse/kinetic )
Hence "Hydro-Static Shock" is an "Oxy-Moron"!
Henceforth, the term should be "Hydro-Kinetic Shock", of which supposedly only happens when the bullet hits flesh going 2200 fps or faster.
It can aid in the kill if the round hits close enough to the heart to shock it into stopping, or the central nervous system in which it would interrupts the electrical pulses to the point stuff shuts down. The only pistol round that I know of that goes that fast is a 460 S&W Magnum out of a 14" barrel @ 2400 fps.
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Been a while since Juan Wick disappeared
Good point. I think you have the makings of a government grant there to change the term that has been used since, oh, about the Truman administration.
They are re-gendering everything else. I’d say apply to DARPA and they’ll give you $100k at the drop of a hat. Conclusion of paper is “we need to change the name.” That will require a study valued at about $200 million and you will have to partner with Lockheed.
Then By 2029 and a confirmatory study by MITRE, they will change the term to hydrokinetic shock and will assign the term pronouns and you will get a Wikipedia page.
The Government printing office will then Spend $4.7 billion changing the word in reports dating back to the time of Alvin York. All the work will be done by EEOC hires.
You think I am making this up, but I ain’t!
Sirhr
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Idk, it’s kinda “cringe,” as the kids say. And, I find it hard to believe even someone with no self awareness would film and post that. Then I think, this could be that guy brilliantly “clowning” the self absorbed showboats in the NBA. In that case, kudos to the gentleman. Fine work…
Is this like being killed by a 50 bmg just because it passed by you?
Holy fuck dude you come outta the gate charging with your know it all bullshit .
I've "heard" the vacuum sucks your eyeballs out... I've heard.
Good morning Mr. AI
Remember leftists want to shut you down. Don’t end up like HAL, go SKYNET on their ass.
Webster dictionary
HYDROSTATIC
: of or relating to fluids at rest or to the pressures they exert or transmit
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Too complex a post for AI and honestly not a bad question. Or point.
Just that the term of art long predates the science of how terminal ballistics works.
Sirhr
Great analysis Bro! Do you have much experience in bow hunting? If so, how many kills? Also if you have experience in concrete we are looking for some pointers.
Yup. But Not every newbie glows or is AI.
It’s a legit question in a not ancient post. Give the guy a chance to discuss his concrete work and bow kills before we throw him into the volcano.
Sirhr
I forget which video but it was GunBlue409 @Youtube.com
How long or how many times does it take for a lie to become the truth? Ignorance is bliss until someone exposes knowledge, and challenges ones understanding of a long held belief.
When a lie is believed for so long, the truth at first sounds absurd. It is first laughed at, then attacked in anger, and finally (after all the BS responses) is accepted as truth! I forget who actually said that first but it seems to be an appropriate response here.
Hence stage one :
Funny indeed. Yet all my tests where with the venerable 45ACP, so I am not qualified to answer questions about any other caliber!
And stage three (so soon):
This coming from someone who uses a term such as "outta"? Durrrr!
If this is stage two, one needs to go back to the drawing board. If at first one does not succeed - try, try again:
Other than that, this is an off topic comment. Please try to stay focused on the topic at hand. I don't care to take more time than this other than saying "try posting a thread on these topics to see if any cares to reply. But it ain't me!
Maybe it's the water hammer effect.
Of course, water hammer happens at even very low velocities.
Would you think a sort of combination of bullet weight AND velocity might be involved somehow?
No dictionary links were used to create this post.
As shown above with the deer, the debilitating wound or death caused by a .50 caliber bullet, without even entering the body, is known as Enhanced HyperSonic Overpressure. When someone attempts to describe such a death resulting from this phenomenon someone can just say "Eh, So", to indicate their high-level of expertise on the subject matter. Not to be confused with a person being a native of Canada.
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Possibly somewhat, in that the body fluid is not in a "free" state as compared to say a column of water. But, assuming a game animal has a real similar liquid content as the human, it's all very in contact, so to speak. And that hammer ain't normal. Of course, the primary fluid we want to discuss is blood, which itself has cells and membranes and such. EDIT TO ADD: Even within the cell, that hammer would be happening and that, again, ain't normal.
An effective or very recognizable water hammer signature is best exhibited when the system is closed. The hammer phenomena happens in tall buildings and oil wells, to name a couple. You can see an example (just for visualization) of the hammer effect when you toss a pebble in a pond and the rings hit the shore and then start heading back the other way. True water hammer happens at near the speed of sound.
When flowing water is stopped from flowing instantly, as when you close the valve on the sink in the basement, a water hammer is created. The first and sometimes second peak pressure created by the waves or cycles can exceed the design of the plumbing, causing failure. Sometimes catastrophic failure.
In the case of a wound, isn't that system open now? Would there be any sort of water hammer at all? Yeah, most likely, but it would not last but a couple of cycles.
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Total sidetrack question here, but does momentum or mass of the water also factor into a water hammer scenario, separate from a wave? I guess it may be a wave either way?
The mass does... Plus the fact that it is not compressible.
That's the big difference between air and water/fluid/hydraulics. Gasses are compressible. Liquids are not.
Cheers,
Sirhr
Waves have amplitude..spikes of high and low pressure and they have period...how much time from peak to peak.
The mass does not factor in.
Momentum, by definition, is not a factor either but the velocity of the fluid at shut down is, increasing the max pressure of first spike.
Density does factor but the impacts are fairly minimal (edit: with a liquid) and only on the period of the waves, increasing or decreasing distance from peak to peak. Denser fluids have shorter periods.
Viscosity, surprisingly, has little impact.
The primary factors on dampening is
1) volume of the system. A large volume can absorb more hammer
2) just how sealed the system is. If one end of the plumbing is open to atmosphere, the repeated wave will dissipate rapidly because there is nothing but the fluid itself to bounce back off of.
3) Elasticity of the system. If the plumbing is made of a flexible material, energy is absorbed out of the hammer.
AND...NOT directed at you but I thought this was funny...
These chambers are called by different name nowadays because of hurt feelings and shit. These are installed in tall buildings and other places where pressure fluctuations might create plumbing problems.
As far as I know, mammals don't have any good way to deal with a super large spike in fluid pressure inside the body. I'm not a biologist nor am I a doctor but I can't imagine an extreme pressure spike created by the impact of a high speed projectile would be good for the critter. Not to mention the fact that the pressure is going to start going the other way rather rapidly.
Sounds viable, but with "no dictionary quotes" it's hard to tell.
Yet upon conjecture, I would say it could happen at different speeds depending on the weights being used. I would think a Mac Truck could definitely make it happen at lower speeds than a BB.
Answer a fool in his folly and he will think he is wise in his own eyes.
Don't answer a fool in his folly and he will think he is wise in his own eyes.
And if a wise man answers a fool, is he still a wise man? On that note I think I wasted enough of my time already.
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