Maggie’s Hypothetical...Help the Police?

[jayd4wg]

So my wife and I were watching a documentary on the events following the boston bombing and at one point theres a guy armed with an iPhone filming the two chuckleheads lobbing lead at the law. I immediately thought, from that vantage point, taking the dorks out would have been childs play - at least one, possibly both as from his line of sight the shooters crossed bodies a number of times. So i pondered the question with the wife - she immediately went defensive with the thought that as soon as you pulled the trigger, the assailants may have turned on the house. I find that a bit ridiculous in that there would have been NO way for them to immediately know where the shot came from as the guy with the iphone was 90 degrees to the right of the assailants/supposed bombers. My immediate thought is that the police would have switched gears thinking a third bad guy and start peppering my abode with additional fire, and they could have possibly had line of sight to my "hide."

so thoughts....call 911 and ask permission to engage/offer help? (i know...highly unlikely) or take advantageous defensive position so that any entry or approach to my house could be "thwarted" or kick back and watch all of them trade licks like a bunch of kids on the school yard with much more dire consequences? Let's up the ante...all you have at ready disposal is a damn accurate ruger 10/22 with very little reload, and a high powered hunting rifle? consequences of using the hunting rifle - immediate incapacitation of the assailant and risk giving up position because of muzzle flash and different sound? With the 22 - high likelihood of sufficiently wounding/killing one of the perps without immediate knowledge of where the shots came from? The cops had already committed to use of deadly force. if one of them shot the gas tank and the car blew up hollywood style would someone sue the snot out of Mercedes for not having bulletproof gas tanks?

the whole thing left me feeling overall helpless and equally angry. what would YOU do? Take a seat next to Geraldo Rivera and take the grilling on Fox and hope someone comes to your legal aid? or watch helplessly as the law slowly loses another comrade? GRR....
Back to your normal programming..

BTW, i think these two screwed up in sooooo many ways but i'll not post my thoughts about those bombs in a public forum, let's just say they executed the plan (did they even HAVE a plan?) wayyyyy wrong.

 

[jayd4wg]

i know...ghey post, i was bored and can't stop thinking "what if"...no wonder my blood pressure is high

 

[FedCop]

Not Ghey at all, its always great to play out different scenarios in your head and what ifs. that's called mental preparation and what survivors do. especially those who may have to pull the trigger some day... will you? I hope so. but training the mind is step one. IJ recommend LTC Grossman's "ON Killing" great book about mental prep and seeing how un-ready the human mind is.

 

[Crosshair]

Interesting question. My response is just my personal opinion.

There are so many things to consider in the blink of an eye when carrying concealed. I think the basic mindset to maintain at all times when carrying is; to be a force for good, and to protect the lives of innocents that are under threat of their lives. I blindly don't endorse all of law enforcement's move's; some very bad calls take place sometimes. It's sad to read some of the power abuse stories that are out there of police being an oppressive force. They have the occasional unfortunate immature power-hungry punk that can case serious grief and even death to good people as well as endless grief to their own department. It is a good thing to have a responsible armed populace to balance the power between the police force and the people, as works to keep both sides polite. In the heat of the moment a carrying bystander may not know what caused a firefight to break out. It may be hard to know who is on the "right" side, not just the "legal" side. In this current version of society, I'd guess 99.9% of police firefights are justified, and are on the side of righteousness.

In your hypothetical scenario with the boston suspects I think enough information could be gleaned in the moment to realize that these two brothers were in the mode of firing at will and intending to kill anyone and everyone in their path. Bullets flying through houses and potentially killing innocents as well as police who were doing their jobs to protect the innocent, I would feel compelled to act. I think I would feel the same as if gunman opened up in a mall or theater; there would be no conceivable justified reason for that and at that point open themselves up to being put down quickly in the name of truth. If I were there and had a good vantage point and had a clean shot and believed putting down that human life would be justified and on the side of righteousness, I'd feel obligated to take it. If police were banging it out with amateur gang bangers, they probably would have it sorted and the extra personal risk coming from an unknown concealed carry holder firing unexpectedly may not be worth it. If lots of innocents were present and in eminent danger and we had a way better vantage point than police taking cover, its probably worth the personal risk, and in that moment damn the legalities, worry about that after the bullets stop flying and the women children aren't taking rounds.

Of course this is internet talk, we don't know how we'd actually respond in the dire moment, and I pray we never have to. Good question and food for thought.

 

[Maggot]

Interesting question. My response is just my personal opinion.

There are so many things to consider in the blink of an eye when carrying concealed. I think the basic mindset to maintain at all times when carrying is; to be a force for good, and to protect the lives of innocents that are under threat of their lives. I blindly don't endorse all of law enforcement's move's; some very bad calls take place sometimes. It's sad to read some of the power abuse stories that are out there of police being an oppressive force. They have the occasional unfortunate immature power-hungry punk that can case serious grief and even death to good people as well as endless grief to their own department. It is a good thing to have a responsible armed populace to balance the power between the police force and the people, as works to keep both sides polite. In the heat of the moment a carrying bystander may not know what caused a firefight to break out. It may be hard to know who is on the "right" side, not just the "legal" side. In this current version of society, I'd guess 99.9% of police firefights are justified, and are on the side of righteousness.

In your hypothetical scenario with the boston suspects I think enough information could be gleaned in the moment to realize that these two brothers were in the mode of firing at will and intending to kill anyone and everyone in their path. Bullets flying through houses and potentially killing innocents as well as police who were doing their jobs to protect the innocent, I would feel compelled to act. I think I would feel the same as if gunman opened up in a mall or theater; there would be no conceivable justified reason for that and at that point open themselves up to being put down quickly in the name of truth. If I were there and had a good vantage point and had a clean shot and believed putting down that human life would be justified and on the side of righteousness, I'd feel obligated to take it. If police were banging it out with amateur gang bangers, they probably would have it sorted and the extra personal risk coming from an unknown concealed carry holder firing unexpectedly may not be worth it. If lots of innocents were present and in eminent danger and we had a way better vantage point than police taking cover, its probably worth the personal risk, and in that moment damn the legalities, worry about that after the bullets stop flying and the women children aren't taking rounds.

Of course this is internet talk, we don't know how we'd actually respond in the dire moment, and I pray we never have to. Good question and food for though.

And a well thought out reply. You pretty much covered it and expressed my thoughts.

Unless I knew it was the dickhead cops who fucked with the guy down in Temple Texas. Or the one in Boston aiming at the window. In that case I might just look the other way. They are exempt rom the law so they should be exempt from my help. Assholes.

 

[Napsters]

Not bashing... But here in LA there was a domestic "terrorist" that caused different 2 shoots at 3 innocent people. If you are not directly involved stay out of it...

It would suck to have been home, had 2 LEOs with ARs firing over 100 rounds, and been the one to place a single aimed shot...

Now if they had just home invasioned your house, hurt your family, and the police roll up and a gunfight goes down in your front yard it is a totally different story. Again though you might want to take cover so you don't take one from the LEO's because they will not know you are the home owner. They will just see gun and react.

 

[aur0ra145]

Relevent

Shooter who aided officer gives his account of Peach House RV Park incident - YouTube

 

[Unknown]

With a properly suppressed and set up rifle, with all the confusion, and firing of unsuppressed firearms, it would be extremely unlikely that either the perps, or police would know where the shots came from.

But, because the perps did not present a real, current danger to your life, you would be committing murder. Secretly, most officers would likely think "thanks" but the smart ones would NEVER say it. the district attorney would be obligated to prosecute, even if they were grateful too. You need to be able to convince the D.A. And a jury that you were in fear for your life to use deadly force.

It is a complex question, with no easy answer.

 

[sled_mack]

With a properly suppressed and set up rifle, with all the confusion, and firing of unsuppressed firearms, it would be extremely unlikely that either the perps, or police would know where the shots came from.

But, because the perps did not present a real, current danger to your life, you would be committing murder. Secretly, most officers would likely think "thanks" but the smart ones would NEVER say it. the district attorney would be obligated to prosecute, even if they were grateful too. You need to be able to convince the D.A. And a jury that you were in fear for your life to use deadly force.

It is a complex question, with no easy answer.

The part in bold - isn't that state by state? In some states, you can use deadly force if you believe someone else's life is in danger. (That is my understanding of the law in NY, and we have some pretty screwed up gun laws.) I agree it's a harder sell to a jury than being in fear of your own life. And you may still face civil lawsuits.

ETA - you still have to live with the consequences of taking another life. I've only ever known one person to be in that situation (robber entered his home in the middle of the day) and it messed him up for a while. From talking with LE and MIL who have taken a life, I don't think any of us know for sure how it will affect us. The flip side of that - if you do nothing and someone dies, you get to live with that knowledge too. At the point the OP described, it's a bad situation with no good way out. For anyone.

 

[Unknown]

Yes, laws vary from state to state. As conservative/regressive/anti-firearm as NY, and MA are, I would not trust the government officials to act in my best interest. I would be VERY fearful that they would want to make an example out anyone who decided to start shooting bad guys...even the ones who blew up people at the Boston marathon.

 

[sled_mack]

I agree completely. So I think the decision becomes very personal. Is the legal risk to each of us worth the risk of an innocent person being killed when we could have prevented it. We have to live with the action we don't take as much as the action we do take.

I'm not sure I know the answer to the question for myself. I think we can all only hope that we are never in the situation to have to make such a decision.

 

[sled_mack]

oops... double post.

 

[mulletchef]

your outcome would not have been to your advantage in boston, the cops, fbi,or whoever was employed at the time would have shot your ass off to for helping, just because,you were not a gov. vetted shooter. To bad.

 

[Unknown]

what would really suck is if you did intervene and shoot the guy, only to later learn that he was merely an innocent patsy who had been set up.

I do not believe the two chechen's were patsys, but it would suck to do what you think is helping, only to later learn you shot an innocent. Just another reason to be very careful when using deadly force.

 

[jbjh]

I think the biggest potential problem is shooting the wrong person. While we know who was who after seeing the video and hearing the story, it's easy. But without being part of the direct action on the ground, you could just as easily shoot a plain-clothes who is flanking the bad guys. Hell, they could have perps in a crossfire for all you know. Unless its something like North Hollywood, I would be really hesitant to start adding lead into the situation.

 

[KYpatriot]

With a properly suppressed and set up rifle, with all the confusion, and firing of unsuppressed firearms, it would be extremely unlikely that either the perps, or police would know where the shots came from.

But, because the perps did not present a real, current danger to your life, you would be committing murder. Secretly, most officers would likely think "thanks" but the smart ones would NEVER say it. the district attorney would be obligated to prosecute, even if they were grateful too. You need to be able to convince the D.A. And a jury that you were in fear for your life to use deadly force.

It is a complex question, with no easy answer.

I think this is a bunch of bullshit. It is not committing murder to protect an innocent life, whether the life you are protecting is a cop or private citizen. If you have the situation doped out like the gentleman in aurora's video, it is the right thing to do. When it comes to life and death I hope we don't make decisions based on the DA or political correctness because if we do we are part of the problem. We have lost perspective if we don't save a cop, or anyone else's life, for fear of a civil lawsuit. If someone has the ability and opportunity to prevent an innocent person getting beaten or stabbed or shot to death right in front of them in my opinion what state you live in doesn't matter until after you do the right thing.

Any hesitation should come from the need to KNOW what is going on, not a lawsuit. You may be perceived as a threat by law enforcement who are fighting for their lives, or you may shoot a plainclothes off duty or undercover cop, or even another able bodied citizen attempting to help, so you need to have an understanding of what is happening. Most situations are probably not going to present an opportunity to assist, but if there is I don't see it as helping to effect a police action but rather helping to save another person's life. If you have the situational awareness and opportunity to help morally I think it is the right thing to do.

As far as the LAPD reference, that is unlikely in this scenario...when officers overstep their bounds like lapd did they won't need assistance so my response would be a moot point...innocent people are usually not engaging in firefights and just get shot without anyone else's help when police are out of line. If an innocent person is shooting at a cop doing wrong, it is almost exclusively going to be in a no-knock raid or something of that nature where a homeowner doesn't have time to process they are cops, which is why i think no-knocks should be illegal. Innocent people don't shoot at cops unless they have no warning or don't have opportunity to recognize that they are police, at least at this point in our history.

 

[Slapchop]

I think this is a bunch of bullshit. It is not committing murder to protect an innocent life, whether the life you are protecting is a cop or private citizen. If you have the situation doped out like the gentleman in aurora's video, it is the right thing to do. When it comes to life and death I hope we don't make decisions based on the DA or political correctness because if we do we are part of the problem. We have lost perspective if we don't save a cop, or anyone else's life, for fear of a civil lawsuit. If someone has the ability and opportunity to prevent an innocent person getting beaten or stabbed or shot to death right in front of them in my opinion what state you live in doesn't matter until after you do the right thing.

Any hesitation should come from the need to KNOW what is going on, not a lawsuit. You may be perceived as a threat by law enforcement who are fighting for their lives, or you may shoot a plainclothes off duty or undercover cop, or even another able bodied citizen attempting to help, so you need to have an understanding of what is happening. Most situations are probably not going to present an opportunity to assist, but if there is I don't see it as helping to effect a police action but rather helping to save another person's life. If you have the situational awareness and opportunity to help morally I think it is the right thing to do.

As far as the LAPD reference, that is unlikely in this scenario...when officers overstep their bounds like lapd did they won't need assistance so my response would be a moot point...innocent people are usually not engaging in firefights and just get shot without anyone else's help when police are out of line. If an innocent person is shooting at a cop doing wrong, it is almost exclusively going to be in a no-knock raid or something of that nature where a homeowner doesn't have time to process they are cops, which is why i think no-knocks should be illegal. Innocent people don't shoot at cops unless they have no warning or don't have opportunity to recognize that they are police, at least at this point in our history.

^^Spot on^^ I don't usually agree with KYpatriot but when he's right he's right. I especially liked the part that you do it because "its the right thing to do". Good post sir!

 

[KYpatriot]

Well Slap I am always happy to find common ground with a man when principle allows....

 

[wilecoyote]

I've read that even Israel has quite strict gun laws, now,exactly to avoid the incidents due to civilian interventons against real or supposed terrorist menaces, and the related injuring of anyone around _Laws so strict that your handgun, if/when allowed to buy one, never will go outside the shooting stand or your safe placed inside the same shooting stand_Considering that Israel never lacked of terrorist menaces, I have the impression that will be very difficult find a country, an administration,or a police/military agency oriented to allow or tolerate a civilian entry in a scenario like that_ (Seems to my the best way to gain something ranging from a bad lawsuit to some police bullet in the chest)_ aside that, if we consider the effort/interest to take alive this kind of suspects, and the inherent risks, seeing the head of the suspect / future informant exploding thank to a citizen effort can raise (un?)foreseen reactions_ only my opinion,of course_

 

[aur0ra145]

There are countless examples of citizens stepping up to the call to help officers who are injured or outgunned. I've searched in vain for the last 20 minutes to find some of the news reels of these acts, but they're hard to come by (absolutely no angst towards the media, yeah right.)

The man in Georgia who killed a man assaulting a cop in a funeral procession. Citizens taking down armed assailants who have a cop dead to rights. Fighting for good is a fight worth having. Continuously we're told that we have to default to the police to take care of us. But when it comes down to the wire, we are the only ones that are the captains of our own souls. When it really gets down to tooth and nail, the police need us. We need each other. When the boat leaves port, all we have are those around us. It's be proven time and time again, the people that are best equipped to deal with a situation are that people that are there. I carry a handgun, and I keep a blowout/bleeder kit in my car/near me at work.

Being a good citizen is more than just having a pistol pointed down range. How would you feel if you stop the threat, but don't have the needed medical supplies to aid those who are down. No one can carry everything, but two tourniquets are leaps and bounds better than a t-shirt and belt. I was talking to a ranger one day in school and he put it well, "If I can't fix you and stop the bleeding with the stuff around me, then you're a goner." I ask, why leave it to that? If we have the ability to prepare to any degree, then fucking do it.

Philosophy of carry is something I ponder quite often. "Why do I have a gun?" To stop a threat, of coarse. "Am I capable of killing someone?" Well hopefully if it's needed, but I haven't been tried in that arena, and I intend to have all the tools necessary to deal with that if it comes. "Will you fail in your moment of truth?" I hope to God not, but it is possible. I'd rather have issues with my self about not pulling the trigger than not have a trigger around to pull.

I take the burden of carrying very seriously. It's never been an easy topic with me.

We have been chosen for this lifestyle because the forces of good are something we can't live without propagating. I didn't wake up one day and say, "I'm going to carry." Rather it was something that we ingrained in my as a child. I could never standby helpless in a lethal situation and hope for the best. I will not abide by the wishes of a crazy person. I will not abide by the wishes of a killer. I will stand up against them the best way I know how.

My life will not be dictated by others.

We have a duty to ensure our society. And yes, today that means defending it with firearms. We must. Without us, society will see a downfall.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke

This is our fight. It's not just a civil liberty fight, it's not just a 2A fight. It's an everything fight. We must answer the call. The forces of evil are ever lurking in the shadows looking fora time to strike. Only patriots like us can defend it. We must. The 3% rule is something I always think about. Not in a taking up arms sense, but in a "We can stop this" sense.

We have been given a chance in history to make a difference and carry on the flag. We all must answer the call. Some say "Molon Labe" is our battle cry. However, I believe that Liberty is. There is no down time. The ideas of a sunshine patriot and summer solider ring true here. We must remain ever vigilant. For the republic rests with us alone.

The time for choosing is upon us. Where do you stand?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kHU6i7oNx0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BLfaQ98FbM

"Those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent it's happening."

We are all in this together. We must preserve liberty and carry it on. For we are the generation to carry on the ideas of the American Revolution. It's us and that's it. We are the front lines. We must carry the burden. We must do these things so our children will know true freedom as we have known it.

The fight is now. Where do you stand?

And yes, Vivaldi, because he's the best.

 

[Unknown]

I don't have any problem with shootings where I know I am protecting either my life, or the life of an innocent. helping others IS the right thing to do, so from those standpoints I am in agreement with KYpatriot. Knowledge of the situation, extent of the threat and laws where the incident happens will greatly effect how I react. In a state like Texas, my response would be vastly different than in NY, MA, NJ, RI, and other states that appear to abhor firearms and armed citizens.

I simply do not trust the politicians, or district attorneys in those states to not throw me under the bus if I did intervene and shoot one of the perps. Civil litigation is another concern in those states. When they set up an anti-gun legal system, it would be very likely that I would find myself prosecuted AND sued for some issue related to the shooting.

they set their society up that way. Watching out for my family and providing for them comes before shooting someone who is not a direct threat to me in order to protect a stranger...especially if I have a very realistic expectation of prosecution and being in the loosing end of a lawsuit.

In states like Texas and a few others, I would be completely comfortable helping out the police, but the people in those areas have set their society up differently, and what I consider reason is more prevalent. Fear of prosecution or lawsuit is reality, and all recognized firearms instructors (other than military) teach students to remain aware of the possibilities..it is simply reality.

patriot is right in that our society IS messed up when those considerations override shooting bad guys to help police. I see that as the difference between how I wish society was, and how society IS in reality. So I avoid places like NY, MA, RI, Connecticut and a few others.

 

[Decoy]

When the liberal media convinces everyone not to stand up for themselves and others (this includes cops, helping them if the need arises) in their community, they have won. Keep in the fight and stand up for what you believe and if you believe you need to act do it.

Live a good life and do what's right and let the chips land where they fall.

 

[Unknown]

the quotation that comes to mind is "The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

I choose to balance this with my desire to not throw all I have worked for away by going to a place where my well intended actions end up costing me and my family everything. It is for the same reasons that I choose to not live in Iran, China, North Korea, and a number of societies where my choices or actions would cost me more than I am willing to pay.

If the citizens in states like NY, NJ, Conn, MA can get their laws changed, then I would reconsider the wisdom of shooting in a situation where I am not in fear for my life.

If someone can post a statute from MA that says I would be justified in shooting the suspect in the situation the OP describes in his initial posting then I would reconsider the wisdom of taking the life of someone who does not put me in fear of mortal harm. Something along the lines of "a citizen is authorized to use deadly force to eliminate a threat to the life of any public safety personnel." Then I would be fine with taking the shot.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

There are countless examples of citizens stepping up to the call to help officers who are injured or outgunned. I've searched in vain for the last 20 minutes to find some of the news reels of these acts, but they're hard to come by (absolutely no angst towards the media, yeah right.)

The man in Georgia who killed a man assaulting a cop in a funeral procession. Citizens taking down armed assailants who have a cop dead to rights. Fighting for good is a fight worth having. Continuously we're told that we have to default to the police to take care of us. But when it comes down to the wire, we are the only ones that are the captains of our own souls. When it really gets down to tooth and nail, the police need us. We need each other. When the boat leaves port, all we have are those around us. It's be proven time and time again, the people that are best equipped to deal with a situation are that people that are there. I carry a handgun, and I keep a blowout/bleeder kit in my car/near me at work.

Being a good citizen is more than just having a pistol pointed down range. How would you feel if you stop the threat, but don't have the needed medical supplies to aid those who are down. No one can carry everything, but two tourniquets are leaps and bounds better than a t-shirt and belt. I was talking to a ranger one day in school and he put it well, "If I can't fix you and stop the bleeding with the stuff around me, then you're a goner." I ask, why leave it to that? If we have the ability to prepare to any degree, then fucking do it.

Philosophy of carry is something I ponder quite often. "Why do I have a gun?" To stop a threat, of coarse. "Am I capable of killing someone?" Well hopefully if it's needed, but I haven't been tried in that arena, and I intend to have all the tools necessary to deal with that if it comes. "Will you fail in your moment of truth?" I hope to God not, but it is possible. I'd rather have issues with my self about not pulling the trigger than not have a trigger around to pull.

I take the burden of carrying very seriously. It's never been an easy topic with me.

We have been chosen for this lifestyle because the forces of good are something we can't live without propagating. I didn't wake up one day and say, "I'm going to carry." Rather it was something that we ingrained in my as a child. I could never standby helpless in a lethal situation and hope for the best. I will not abide by the wishes of a crazy person. I will not abide by the wishes of a killer. I will stand up against them the best way I know how.

My life will not be dictated by others.

We have a duty to ensure our society. And yes, today that means defending it with firearms. We must. Without us, society will see a downfall.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke

This is our fight. It's not just a civil liberty fight, it's not just a 2A fight. It's an everything fight. We must answer the call. The forces of evil are ever lurking in the shadows looking fora time to strike. Only patriots like us can defend it. We must. The 3% rule is something I always think about. Not in a taking up arms sense, but in a "We can stop this" sense.

We have been given a chance in history to make a difference and carry on the flag. We all must answer the call. Some say "Molon Labe" is our battle cry. However, I believe that Liberty is. There is no down time. The ideas of a sunshine patriot and summer solider ring true here. We must remain ever vigilant. For the republic rests with us alone.

The time for choosing is upon us. Where do you stand?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kHU6i7oNx0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BLfaQ98FbM

"Those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent it's happening."

We are all in this together. We must preserve liberty and carry it on. For we are the generation to carry on the ideas of the American Revolution. It's us and that's it. We are the front lines. We must carry the burden. We must do these things so our children will know true freedom as we have known it.

The fight is now. Where do you stand?

And yes, Vivaldi, because he's the best.

Good post, man. I like the video of the readings also.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

This is an extremely thought provoking thread. I, for one, am grateful to the OP and all you respondents to this thread, as you have raised a lot of questions and given good advice to think on in answering those questions.
For me, I think it comes down to having to think this through very carefully now, in the hypothetical sense, and to have a clearly defined thought now as to what my actions/reactions should be in such a situation. I am not for a moment thinking that I definitely have the fortitude/ strength of character to actually do it if the situation calls for it, as I have never been under fire, nor under the threat of fire, nor have I received formal training for such threats. I would definitely like to have such training, and will pursue obtaining it. However, I can't say what I would do. I believe that I have a better than even chance of being able to take a stand to defend myself or my loved ones. I hope I would be able to help another whom I don't know, or even an LEO if the situation called for it.
I am gleaning from things said here, that much of one's ability to act under these circumstances is decided in their minds before the circumstances present themselves. For this reason, I am starting to give serious thought to this thread and to expand on the things started in this thread, in my mind, so as to have a more clearly defined intention in my heart and mind should I, God Forbid, ever be in a position where I need to make a snap judgement whether to intervene and take a life or not.

 

[Unknown]

What I would like to do is often in conflict with what my judgement tells me is the smart thing to so.

The thing that I think would be in societies beat interest, is sometimes illegal. If societies laws make the actions I think are best illegal, does that then make my decision to disobey those laws immoral? If we believe we have the obligation to disobey laws we think are wrong, then anyone else who believes a given law is wrong has a similar obligation.

Muslims think many western laws are wrong, and christians think many muslim laws are wrong. When we choose which laws to obey, and disobey based on our belief, we choose anarchy over the rule of law. In such a situation, the test will be who has the power to force their beliefs onto those with lesser means of imposing their will.

A society where anyone can decide to do what their desires, beliefs, morals, or ideals tells them to rather than to obey laws would be complete chaos, because people hold so many divergent beliefs.

If I choose to shoot someone rather than have them be arrested and tried, then someone decides to shoot me for having done so, and this pattern continues unabated, we have anarchy. I doubt people here are suggesting that this would be a good idea..at least I hope not.

The "civilized" thing to do is precisely what the founding fathers of this country did: Convince enough like minded people that laws and social rules needs to be rewritten to more accurately reflect the beliefs of the people living in that society. Then, when face with a situation such as that posted in the OP, the actions our morals tell us are "right" are in fact backed up by our laws.

 

[eli polite]

knowing who the 2 shooter are now after the fact I have no doubt that you would be seen as a hero in this situation. If in fact you had sopped or killed the 2 bombers. I don't think that the D.A. in this case would want to touch you after you possably saved L.E.'s from possible harm or death and stopped the city's attackers...

However!!! that is an after thought. I think engaging them would have been the rite thing but than you are putting your self in twice the danger. There is a chance that you could have than been engaged by the shooters and engaged by L.E as well. L.E. does not know who you are your just another shooter. In a stressful situation like that it is very possible that you could be targeted by L.E.

-It would have been a huge feather in the hat of all of us second amendment guys if a concealed carry citizen had put an end to this entire saga

-The same could be said if suspect 2 had tried to enter the home of an armed citizen and was layed to rest !

- Instead I'm sure there are quite a few people thinking " LAW ENFORCEMENT really can protect us we don't need guns"

back on topic., in a split second decision making situation I guess it all depends on the individual. Me having a young family I would have engaged only if my life was directly in danger. if I was that close to the event I would have been behind cover with my side arm drawn and read.

I also wonder if things would have been different if there were as many responsible people armed with concealed carry permits as there are people armed with I-phones

 

[Unknown]

Eli,
Your concern about LE wondering if you are helping, or if you are another threat is very valid. IF LE knew you were on their side, while they would likely be grateful in secret, their policy would probably require then to tell you to stand down....if they didn't start shooting at you too. As high as their emotions were probably running, if they though anyone around them was shooting, would probably end up being perceived as a threat. That was why I initially considered a properly set up suppressed rifle. By properly set up, that would also mean the shooter's position would hopefully be concealed, and very stable.

If the suspect had entered the home of an citizen who was properly prepared to protect himself, I think the ending would be fairly predictable, and it would be fairly easy to justify such a shooting.

The saying "When seconds count, the police are only minutes away" seems sort of ironic here. It was the police who were engaged with the two brothers, and even they could have used more police. The seconds counted, but more police were only minutes away. This allowed one of the brothers to escape.

 

[rwleonard]

I had thought of this myself while watching the vid. I would have yelled at the wife to take the kids to the basement and hole-up, then done my best to place one round of .308 in the pelvis of each tango.

FWIW,

Rick

 

[wilecoyote]

please, think about that even for the eventual bad guys employers, the intervention of a 3rd shooter to shout off forever one or both the main suspects, could be really an attractive option_

 

[azsteve]

In Arizona you can use deadly force to defend yourself and others if life is in danger. ASR-13-406

Texas Patrolman Sammy Long was shot and killed, a deer hunter stopped at a rest area shot the murderer with his deer rifle 150yds away. Patrolman Sammy Charles Long, Texas Department of Public Safety - Texas Highway Patrol, Texas

Just sayin

 

[Unknown]

Az sounds like a state where doing the "right" thing won't get you into trouble. Thanks for posting that. Maybe we should start a different thread showing laws like that one, and other castle doctrine, or stand your ground laws. It would be interesting reading.

 

[Jim See]

I seen the video in reference, I would have shot the pressure cooker bomb that was on the pavement, next to them as they were shooting it out. Hopefully it would detonate and the two brothers could go thru life legless like many of there victims.

I really thought about this exact question when I watched that video, one side of me says I should shoot them, and the other side says, if you do be prepared to live in prison for a while. I don't see much mercy for do-gooders in this country anymore, sure you may get lucky and the cops on the scene claim they fired those kill shots, but I wouldn't count on it.

 

[Gildoom]

If I see an officer under fire, I'm stopping, helping. My neighbors in AK way back when I was a little kid, they were driving in to town and one of the first female State Troopers was on the ground being beaten up by a guy, they got up there, guy took off, the wife started doing her EMT thing. I don't think Al had a gun on him, as I recall they were going to the base, so the guy just took off. She was really beat up something fierce, as I was told.

Sometimes LE doesn't have backup and even if doing the right thing might end you up in court, being able to sleep with a good conscience goes a really long way.

When I ran that guy off the road who was intentionally running people off the road coming towards him, I had quite a few police officers come up afterwards and say "good job" or whatever. I wasn't doing it to be a hero, I didn't want to see a vehicle doing a head on, or flipping in the ditch like that suburban almost did. I didn't care what was going to happen as far as court went, the guy was being nuts crazy or drunk (turned out he was a diabetic and was all violent from low blood sugar).

It is very strange how when you really need an officer, how long it takes to see one, and they never appear to be around when you need one. Also, in my younger years I'd get mighty pissed off when a cop would go by with their lights NOT on, going obviously really fast. Now? Go get em boys.

 

[Bruno]

As said before, very thought provoking thread. I, also, saw the video and thought the same thing as many others. I would be inclined to help, but a young family that depends on me to provide would have swayed my decision. I think the risk your putting yourself in is too great to be a reasonable option. Prison and or getting shot by a LEO seem to be the likely outcome. It is sad that in those states you face prosecution for assisting someone in need. I can also see the other side, in that you would stop a threat from potentially harming others. I would have not engaged, unless I felt that my family or I was in direct danger. A different state, or situation, would propose a different outcome. Using just this one specific example, I would have to stand down.

 

[Decoy]

Question:

If a sheep dog sitting in the next pasture oversees a wolf eating the neighbors sheep does he sit their and say it's not my sheep or does he take the fight to him?

Life is simple, there are three types of people, sheep, wolfs and sheep dogs. Where have you evolved too?

Don't let others tell you how and when to act if danger comes into your pasture.

 

[Maggot]

Life is simple, there are three types of people, sheep, WOLVES (fixed it for ya) and sheep dogs. Where have you evolved too?

None of the above. Some of choose to be non aligned and look out for ourselves.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Considering the craziness that was going on at the time in Boston, my guess is lending a helping hand would probably have gotten you killed (or at least your house riddled), considering the now coming out reports about exactly how crazy it was, and the possibility there was a lot of accidental friendly fire bullets going in the wrong directions.

Now in other situations, who knows things may be different. If one was to be asked for help officially then by all means, but possibly when the crazy is dialed up to 11 & civil rights are being swept aside, it might be best to stay out of the way for a bit.

 

[wilecoyote]

please, simlpy try to be in the cop's shoes, good or bad cops don't matter, in a situation LIKE ABOVE, and try to figure your feelings about : A) some unknown askin' if you and your colleagues need some civilian intervention or B), even better, about some unknown takin'some initiative before or during the shootout ...

 

[RAF2]

After what happened in Boston and the disregard for civil rights I will NEVER help a cop... What we witnessed is just a dress rehearsal of what is to come in this country.

 

[Yasherka]

After what happened in Boston and the disregard for civil rights I will NEVER help a cop... What we witnessed is just a dress rehearsal of what is to come in this country.

I think that view is short sighted. While I agree there are huge issues with the northeast (if the shot heard 'round the world were fired there today, someone would be arrested on a weapons charge), much of America is not so screwed up.

 

[motodog]

i would rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6.

 

[TNT]

I agree with those who say damn the consequences and do what is right. Be sure in your due diligence, including thinking these things out beforehand, to understand the situation and not go off half-cocked. But there is the right thing, the wrong thing, and the legal thing. When we start thinking #1 is a subset of #3, we are in trouble.

From a great man before us, "...never give in, never give in, never, never, never, never-in nothing, great or small, large or petty - never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy."

I hope I have the courage if ever faced with a similar situation. I have serious doubts about that but continue to pray that if I might be tested, then I measure up.

 

[Yeticowboy]

Here in Texas I wouldn't have even thought about it. Just line up the shot, make sure no one is beyond your targets and go to town on them. In Kommifornia they would probably try to lump you in with the terrorist. Texas, Arizona, Montana, Wyoming, Oklahoma etc... you would get a pat on the back and a bottle of good bourbon as a thank you from the local P.D. or Sheriff's Office.

 

[Maggot]

Here in Texas I wouldn't have even thought about it. Just line up the shot, make sure no one is beyond your targets and go to town on them. In Kommifornia they would probably try to lump you in with the terrorist. Texas, Arizona, Montana, Wyoming, Oklahoma etc... you would get a pat on the back and a bottle of good bourbon as a thank you from the local P.D. or Sheriff's Office.

Maybe not in Temple, where the law enforcement is "exempt from the law."

 

[Yeticowboy]

I tend to steer clear of Temple, and Austin LOL.