PRS Talk Hypothetical Question-Holds Only Stage.

[Just Chuck]

I’m new to PRS; one big ‘ol match under my belt.

I have a question about a stage where there is no elevation dialing - holds only. I’d like to know how experienced shooters would work it.

Let’s say targets at 235, 370, 470, 650, and 800 yards. Two shots each target.

Before the start, Is it feasible to dial in the hold for 470, that becomes 0 . Then hold -1.7 for 235yds, -.8 for 370yds, +1.6 for 650yds, and +3.2 for 800yds. ( these holds are based on StrelokPro for my 6.5cm).

This seems like a viable solution- maybe obvious to others. But again, I don’t have any experience to speak of. So, how would more experienced shooters do this stage?

 

[T-TurtleWang]

That would work. Or you could dial the near target and calculate the holds for the other targets off your near target dope.

 

[mahlv]

This is where I would have dope written on an armboard or dope card holder on the rifle. I'd probably just hold the respective yardage for each

 

[The4GunGuy]

That would work. Or you could dial the near target and calculate the holds for the other targets off your near target dope.

Either the "near target dial" -or- the ZERO method (my preferred method) which is where you simply dial your turret to zero (which is 100 yds) and then go from there. I like the zero method because you're then dealing with the absolute hold for each target no math in your head...so at 235, 370, 470, 650, and 800 yards:

235 Target 1 Hold .7 Up
370 Target 2 Hold 1.7 Up
470 Target 3 Hold 2.5 Up
650 Target 4 Hold 4.3 Up
850 Target 5 Hold 6.5 Up

Also, decide on HOW you're going to write out your DOPE card. Are you going to write out the next elevation FROM the one you're shooting or are you going to write the ACTUAL hold for each target. My preference is the actual hold for each target as you see it above, so I see it and hold it...no math!

Having a good scope and having that scope zeroed to your rifle and cartridge is very important also (well, and a good position, and not jerking the trigger, and, and, and...). Make sure you're comfortable with the zoom on your scope so you can find that right zoom that will either work for all shots or at least shot 1, 2 and 3 then adjust for shots 4 and 5. There are about 100 other things to consider, but hope this gives you an idea. Best advice and when you watch the really good shooters? KEEP IT SIMPLE!

 

[Just Chuck]

The reason I chose 470 as my 0, is the respective holds are less than making a 5.5 hold for 800yds - only 3.2 from the 470yd 0. Not sure if that really makes any difference. That’s why the question.

thanks for the input, just what I was looking for.

 

[b6graham]

The reason I chose 470 as my 0, is the respective holds are less than making a 5.5 hold for 800yds - only 3.2 from the 470yd 0. Not sure if that really makes any difference. That’s why the question.

thanks for the input, just what I was looking for.

It doesn't make a difference really.

Some people can't hold under so take that into consideration but thats based on your scope/reticle

You can prep before hand so at least dialing for the first target is smart. There's no on the fly math for elevation in any scenario

Next time try dialing for the first target and holding from there and see which works better for you

 

[6.5SH]

The "Target list" function in Strelok Pro makes it really easy to visualize something like this.

 

[Mordamer]

Some competitions have specified that the turrets must be on zero for the entirety of the stage on no hold stages. Your question seems to be focused on elevation. Windage is the real problem to worry about on hold only stages. If you have 2.2 mils of wind and 5.3 mils of elevation at 800 yards you'll be holding out in space regardless of your reticle.

These stages are so rarely encountered (about 1 stage in 50 in my experience) that I don't worry about them. Every time I have had to shoot a holdover only stage the targets weren't that far apart or were slightly larger than the other match targets. I never hold over while practicing or match shooting, but when I have to for one of these stages it seems easy and not that big of a deal.

 

[mojavejim]

If they let you dial off zero, I dial for the smallest target.

 

[Just Chuck]

Good input ! Thanks, all. I guess my take away is to KISS it and just hold from my 0 stop. Over thinking it just muddies it up. My scope is the NF NX8 4-32 mil and I have confidence (proven confidence) in this scope.

I do need to dig into Strelok Pro for the target list function - that's new to me.

PS. Just got the target list function - that's a big help!

 

[Sheldon N]

Yes, you can dial to mix and match hold overs and hold unders. It's easy to mess it up while on the clock though, holding over when you should have held under, etc.

You can also dial the nearest and hold over smaller amounts for the farther targets. That keeps you closer to the center of your field of view.

Usually I will dial to put my reticle on where I need the most aiming precision and most precise wind hold. Secondary consideration given to making the stage as simple as possible mentally to reduce the chance of screwups.

 

[Rob01]

Either will work as mentioned. When I write it on my arm band if I am holding under I put an arrow pointing down next to the hold and a hold over will have an arrow pointing up. Just a little insurance if you brain fart.

 

[CoryT]

We do a pretty extensive lecture in class on holds for rapid target engagements. There are a number of ways to do it, each with advantages and disadvantages.

Simple - Hold everything from the zero on the gun. If you have a 100y zero, you just hold up for everything. This is fast and easy, no real prep time needed, you just need to know the elevation for each target. The downside is the longer range targets require the most holdover, perhaps outside the limits of the reticle, or needing a lower magnification to get enough reticle in the field of view. The long targets also have the least margin for error, you'd really like that target closer to the center of the scope.

Dial long, hold under - Dialing the longest target on the gun gets that target on the reticle for a precise hold, everything else is a hold under, so the same direction and the bigger the hold the closer the target, leaving more margin for error in the hold. You need enough prep time to create a dope card for the holds. You need reticle marks above center.

Dial near, hold over - The reverse of the above. Still same direction holds, but we hold center on the near target. No marks above center required.

Dial mid-range, hold over/under - Gives the most flexibility at the expense of complicating the holds. But with a 10 mil reticle and a 600y zero you can hold everything between 100 and 850, depending on the cartridge.

Each method has a place and purpose. For example:

When a sniper takes up an FFP, it's a good plan to place the zero on the gun for the expected target location, or middle of the field of fire. Then, on the range card, mark the TRP's with the required hold for snap shots.

On a stage where the long target is the most difficult or highest value, dial long may be best.

Where the near target is very small and the long target is 2 MOA, dialing it on may be best.

If you have a Christmas tree type reticle and no time for prep, the simple hold everything method is a winner.

 

[Just Chuck]

Thanks, @CoryT , good info to consider. This is all pretty new to me and this is just what I need.

 

[Yoteski]

I've seen people screw the pooch dialing in data under time constraints so my suggestion is to go from zero and hold over for absolute holds. Don't worry about that 800 yard target, if you hit you hit, get the easy points available. At the ranges you listed, holding over under 800 yards is fairly easy. Now, if you're plus 800 yards with several targets you might dial in your distance and do the math from there to get back in to the center of the crosshairs. KISS method usually applies here.
Honestly, the best way to get better at hold over stages is to pick a stage or two during some one day matches or something and just do hold overs. It will give you the confidence to do it and/or will exploit some weaknesses in your technique/reticle.
It also helps when time is running short on a stage and it's time to fly. I've saved several stages by doing the 'about there' hold overs when there's only seconds left. The more often you do it, especially in a match setting, the more comfortable you'll get.
I think it's a method to be figured out for one's self and how their brain works. I suggest the KISS method because the stress of a stage can make us dumb primates real fast. So, practice some different techniques, see what jives with your dumb primate brain under stress.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

If you have 2.2 mils of wind and 5.3 mils of elevation at 800 yards you'll be holding out in space regardless of your reticle.

What do you mean by "space"?

 

[Rob01]

Space as in no dot or mark there but it’s not like actually holding in space as we used to have to do with non tree reticles. You have much closer reference points so the hold is still very accurate if the shooter has practiced it.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

The lack of a tree in the upper portion is why I prefer to just not dial and hold over for all distances. KISS.

 

[Just Chuck]

I have the Mil C reticle- no tree. So, yeah, I’d have to hold 5.5 and 2.2 off vertical stadia. And hope for good guesswork.

 

[Rob01]

The lack of a tree in the upper portion is why I prefer to just not dial and hold over for all distances. KISS.

That also depends on wind conditions as with the closer targets wind holds might not be needed or as much and an edge hold can be fine as you should probably be pre gaming the holds and looking at the target before shooting anyways. Figure the width of the targets so you know holds on them. All depends on the stage though and being able to know how to do the holds multiple ways makes it easier for the shooter.

 

[Rob01]

I have the Mil C reticle- no tree. So, yeah, I’d have to hold 5.5 and 2.2 off vertical stadia. And hope for good guesswork.

Practice it and you will get better and it will be more skill than guesswork. I have held to a 1000 yards and had to hold wind too and you just do a double check of vertical and horizontal before breaking the shot.

 

[Yoteski]

I have the Mil C reticle- no tree. So, yeah, I’d have to hold 5.5 and 2.2 off vertical stadia. And hope for good guesswork.

Our brains are actually really good at making 90 degree angles, i.e. elevation and wind. Try it and I think you'll surprise yourself.

 

[Just Chuck]

...and this while making sure the scope is level; vertical hold is on; windage is right, opps, go back to level,....rinse and repeat. All on the clock. This is a fun, challenging sport.

 

[Rob01]

Don’t stress the level too much especially if shooting off props. Your mind seeing level will be close enough with everything else going on. You can give it a check if prone and if you get the chance lock the bipod in place. If not then just leave the bipod loose enough so you can get level with your strong hand giving a slight twist.

 

[Yoteski]

Focus on fundamentals of marksmanship. All the minutia you're worried about is secondary to wobble and fundamentals. Unless you're shooting a belly match at distance, you'll pretty much have to induce cant to see a measurable shift. Breathing, trigger control, follow through. Trust your brain dude. Practice often as budget dictates and you'll see success. You're worried about issues that separate the top 5 shooters in a match. You're not going to be competitive with them right now, that's fact; maybe never. Focus on incremental goals, i.e. top 50, then top 20. When you get there, you'll know. The top guys are probably shooting 10,000 rounds a year in practice, and more importantly, shooting national level matches almost every weekend. It's a very small proportion who can dedicate that time and money to achieve that level of success. Have fun, achieve self-initiated goals, meet good people, and have fun.

 

[iceng]

Enough people have covered it here. Don't dial, (zero), and hold everything. Dial for the hardest shot, the hold over / unders, or dial for mid range and walk the reticle.

All are valid, all have a use. It depends what stage I'm on as to what my method is. Im usually a "don't dial, just hold" sorta guy, unless the stage, or points, would really benefit.

One stage we have had in Australia is "billiards". Red gong @ 200m, and blue, green, yellow, black, pink and brown.

They go out in distance. You start with red, then hit another target, come back to red, (hit to move) and then another. Non red are a single shot. If you miss, you can come back to red to re-engage, but red is the hit to move "resetter".

Black was hardest, and obviously one everyone needs. Do you dial for the black, and hold under for everything, or whats the plan ?

Moving forward and back a lot it's easy to just not dial and hold, but many dialled for black. Some even went to shoot black first and work backwards. More time on the clock less stress. Targets at 2,3,400m are not that hard, and you should be rapid firing those bad boys quickly. So you can make up time at the end.

MANY ways to try. My strong suggestion is to setup dots on a wall, and dryfire and try it out. See what works for you.

 

[The Durk]

Highly stage dependent and what my holds will be. If I have 3 targets, and they all happen to be 1 mil different from each other (I shoot 308 so that happens a lot) I'll dial the first, hold over for the other two.

In your scenario, I prefer to keep my 100 yard zero and hold over for every target. I also have 12 mils of in my scope, so holding out to 1000 yards is pretty easy for me.

 

[rothgyr]

I have a Tremor3 reticle in my main scope, so I leave the elevation set to zero, and hold everything. The MDs of one of the club matches I shoot at have a thing for troop line stages, and rather than calculate wind for every target, I use the wind dots. For no-dial stages, I recommend printing out a few cards with your reticle on it, and using a marker to put your aim points on the card. Put it in your dope card holder of choice and proceed. It's nice to be able to visualize your reticle and holds as you prep for a stage and can't be on your rifle.

 

[Mike Shoots Stuff]

If my reticle allowed, I would do something similar to what you said, but make it a bit more even. This way, I can keep my holds closer to the center of the view where my eye wants to look. If I have to hold for wind, it doesn’t seem as difficult if I’m 6.5 mils away from the horizontal stadia. I primarily use a generation 2 mildot duplex and find this best.
I do have an H58 in a Leupold. If I have to hold a lot from 0, I will zoom out a bit. I prefer not to look too far away from the center.

 

[iceng]

I do the same. Zoom out if I'm going to hold 5mil or so. You don't need 30+ zoom on a PRS stage.

 

[gasrat]

Someone may have mentioned something similar above. I'll admit, I didn't read all the post. There is a video somewhere on Youtube that Robert Brantley talks about this. From the best I can remember, say if the first target was 450 yards, he goes into his kestrel, sets his zero distance to 450 and goes off that for the hold overs. Basically, he says that makes the hold overs less on the reticle versus holding from a 100 yard zero. You dial your scope for whatever 450 gives you on the Kestrel and go from there. He stresses to just remember to go back and set your Kestrel zero back to 100 yards following the stage. I've personally never tried it, but it made sense to me when I watched it.

 

[b6graham]

Someone may have mentioned something similar above. I'll admit, I didn't read all the post. There is a video somewhere on Youtube that Robert Brantley talks about this. From the best I can remember, say if the first target was 450 yards, he goes into his kestrel, sets his zero distance to 450 and goes off that for the hold overs. Basically, he says that makes the hold overs less on the reticle versus holding from a 100 yard zero. You dial your scope for whatever 450 gives you on the Kestrel and go from there. He stresses to just remember to go back and set your Kestrel zero back to 100 yards following the stage. I've personally never tried it, but it made sense to me when I watched it.

Comp Mode in BallisticsARC does the same thing. Plug target distances(plus direction and angle if desired) and then once they're all entered you can mess with the zero setting.

Some hold under some over. Or adjust it to get better holds on reticle marks

 

[Just Chuck]

Actually, Rifles Only did something similar in their rimfire clinic - they called it, ‘Moving Chaos’. You set your scope for the mover at 123 yards, then held over and under for the remaining 4 steel targets. You have to hit to progress to the next target. A fun, challenging stage, and good practice using holds.

 

[Rob01]

Moving chaos has been a stage at Rifles Only for many years. Shot it 15+ years ago in matches. It’s a good stage to get the feel of hold unders and overs and toss a mover in also.