I’m stuck

[Rant Durden]

I have a 300wsm that’s absolutely the bane of my existence. It started as a Savage Long Range Hunter and now has a new trigger and MDT XRS chassis. No matter what I do it doesn’t shoot under 2”. I’ve tried multiple bullet, powder and primer combinations. Bullets from 150gr lead and copper all the way to 185gr lead and copper bullets. It like everything at least 50 thousandths off the lands.
My son and I each took a deer with it a couple weeks ago, but the shots were within 250 yards.
Im getting single digit SD’s and occasionally putting two bullets I. The same hole, but can’t get a really good group. I’ve had a couple shooters at my range have very similar results.
Factory ammo is worse.
Will moving further off the lands help?
Any suggestions are appreciated.

 

[Aftermath]

Have you tried seating bullets right at the lands?

 

[Rant Durden]

I tried the standard 10-20 thousandths off, then I followed whatever the manufacturer recommended.
As for bullets and powder, Staball 6.5, H4350, IMR4451. Nosier AB150gr, 168gr ABLR, Barnes 168gr tsx. All of these have shot half way decent.
Nobler e-tips 180 gr, Hornady 168gr ELD and 165 gr CX are unusable.
I have taken all the optics mounts apart and that isn’t the problem.
I also sent the gun back to Savage (before the new stock and trigger) and they put a new barrel on.

 

[Im2bent]

Have you tried a different scope?

 

[lash]

What stock?

I ask as I had a Savage that wouldn’t shoot at all. Took the BA out of the stock and did some investigating. Found out it was not sitting right in the so-called mini chassis. After a bit more looking, I ground out just a bit of material and properly bedded the action, especially the lug area.

It has shot ragged holes since and has seen 14” groups at a mile.

Your situation may be completely different, but knowing for sure is the key. In the world of chassis and mini chassis systems, we all assume that bedding is unnecessary. Sometimes it isn’t.

 

[Rant Durden]

What stock?

I ask as I had a Savage that wouldn’t shoot at all. Took the BA out of the stock and did some investigating. Found out it was not sitting right in the so-called mini chassis. After a bit more looking, I ground out just a bit of material and properly bedded the action, especially the lug area.

It has shot ragged holes since and has seen 14” groups at a mile.

Your situation may be completely different, but knowing for sure is the key. In the world of chassis and mini chassis systems, we all assume that bedding is unnecessary. Sometimes it isn’t.

MDT XRS
Everything seems tight.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

The most dreaded word in reloading…”Stuck”.

Stuck as in Stuck Case

If not already, I would definitely mount another scope. Scopes are not “that” reliable.

 

[Aftermath]

I tried the standard 10-20 thousandths off, then I followed whatever the manufacturer recommended.
As for bullets and powder, Staball 6.5, H4350, IMR4451. Nosier AB150gr, 168gr ABLR, Barnes 168gr tsx. All of these have shot half way decent.
Nobler e-tips 180 gr, Hornady 168gr ELD and 165 gr CX are unusable.
I have taken all the optics mounts apart and that isn’t the problem.
I also sent the gun back to Savage (before the new stock and trigger) and they put a new barrel on.

I have a similar rifle...a Kimber Mountain Ascent...I consider it a real piece of shit. I went through a shit ton of iterations of bullets, powders, primers and could never get it to shoot a decent group. I mean, I even took a shot, let it sit for over an hour and took another shot and it would be an inch away from the previous shot. Nothing I did seemed to make a difference. My 80 year old 03A3 was shooting with WAAAY more repeatability. I was about to trade it off for something, almost anything.
Finally, I loaded some SGK's to almost touch the lands. I have to single load them because the OAL is too long. But...just off the lands (-0.002") and this rifle will shoot in a tiny little group. I can only shoot 3 times in short succession before the #2 Dixon Ticonderoga barrel heats up and starts drifting or something.
I'd get rid of it but for 2 reasons....1)it is very very light and 2)my smaller family members sorta like it and it's now good for the 1-2 rounds it gets fired during deer season. I haven't fired it since I figured out what it likes.
I mean, what do you have to lose? Make those bullets kiss the lands and see what happens and back away from there.

 

[spife7980]

It’s a savage, it’s easy and the cheapest option when it comes to new barrels, put a new one on. If it still doesn’t shoot save the new barrel and put the rest in the goodwill box

 

[Supersubes]

I found the source of your problems. Youre welcome.

 

[Rant Durden]

Not the scope, I had a MK5 on it and now a gen 2 razor.
I changed the mounts when I did that.
@Aftermath fortunately mine was free. Well it’s not now, but at least it started out that way.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

Clean the snot out of it.

No, really clean. Benchrest clean. Once clean, run some FGMM, then decide if you can live with whatever accuracy you get or if it's time to move on. It's probably time to move on.

 

[vinniedelpino]

I've probably wasted $1000 in ammo and who knows how much time, fuel and aggravation trying to get off the shelf rifles to shoot to my expectations.

IMO, it's just not worth it. I'm with @spife7980 on this one.

If you can't hit 3/4 moa consistently after two range trips Just screw on a new barrel from Criterion. If you've ruled out the glass, rings, base and stock this is all but guaranteed to solve your problem. Those savage prefits can be pretty cheap and they hold their own.

 

[PharmerJon]

Is it just me, or do those two previous posts by Hoodbu and sniperclick7 (both very new members from LA) sound AI generated?

 

[morning would]

Is it just me, or do those two previous posts by Hoodbu and sniperclick7 (both very new members from LA) sound AI generated?

Yep. As of now, subtle clues are there for bots. Just wait until there isn’t. These 2 are pretty easy to spot when you look at post history.

 

[Haney]

I get that you're upset with your 300wsm. Even though you made changes and tried many things, it's still hard to shoot accurately. You could try moving the bullets a bit farther from the gun's insides.

The gun's insides ? Please do not give advice . Anyone that describes jump/jam like that clearly does not have experience .

 

[Haney]

Is it just me, or do those two previous posts by Hoodbu and sniperclick7 (both very new members from LA) sound AI generated?

 

[Haney]

Strange activity . New guy greeting the new guy ?

 

[OlsenG_360]

It’s a savage, it’s easy and the cheapest option when it comes to new barrels, put a new one on. If it still doesn’t shoot save the new barrel and put the rest in the goodwill box

^This for sure. Barrels are plentiful and relatively cheap. If the factory one has never shot, toss it.

 

[Near miss]

They are bots, even obvious when you look at it.

The OP is most likely a bot too, who shoots a savage???

 

[6.5SH]

View attachment 8263243
Strange activity . New guy greeting the new guy ?

More often future scammer accounts usually play "welcome wagon" to build up post history. Is clear these two are controlled by the same entity.

 

[Rant Durden]

They are bots, even obvious when you look at it.

The OP is most likely a bot too, who shoots a savage???

If you could see me shoot you’d know I’m no bot. Maybe a broken bot…

 

[cas6969]

I hate to sound like one of those bore scope guys, but do you have a bore scope? lol

I say this having finally bought a cheap one this spring, about the same time I bought a used rifle that if I didn't own the bore scope, I would have never figured out the reason it shot so poorly. (and how to make it shoot good, if only for a little while)

 

[357Max]

Not the scope, I had a MK5 on it and now a gen 2 razor.
I changed the mounts when I did that.
@Aftermath fortunately mine was free. Well it’s not now, but at least it started out that way.

My money is on Pick rail - action being the culprit. So you changed scope & mounts, but did you check pick rail torque???

I've never owned a Savage, but have seen a loose pic rail on Savages several times at the range.

 

[Garvey]

I tried the standard 10-20 thousandths off, then I followed whatever the manufacturer recommended.
As for bullets and powder, Staball 6.5, H4350, IMR4451. Nosier AB150gr, 168gr ABLR, Barnes 168gr tsx. All of these have shot half way decent.
Nobler e-tips 180 gr, Hornady 168gr ELD and 165 gr CX are unusable.
I have taken all the optics mounts apart and that isn’t the problem.
I also sent the gun back to Savage (before the new stock and trigger) and they put a new barrel on.

Start over. If you dropped it off to me, here's what I would do.

Clean the barrel.
During cleaning I would figure out your twist rate. Probably a 1:10, but we cannot assume.
Check torque on all screws. Action screws, scope and rings off and check the pic rail screws. Scope and rings back on and check the windage screws or nuts. Then check the scope cap screws.
Find the rifling via modified piece of brass.
If your barrel is 22" or longer, I would be using a slower burn powder. H-4831 or H-1000. From loading for hundreds of "magnum" rifles across many different cartridges, life is easier if the brass is full of a slow burn powder. They just like to shoot full of powder.
I would plan on seating a 180 gr (if you have a 1:10 barrel) .005" jump. Then verify that length fits in the magazine. If it does not, then we are bound by mag length.
I would start at a middle of the road powder charge.
Foul for 3 at 100 yards, cool the barrel. Foul for 3 at 100 yards. If it's holding about 1 MOA (.3 Mil) I am taking that same charge to 200 yard paper. 3 shots. Cool. + .4 gr for 3 shots. Keep climbing looking for two things:
1. Tight shooting
2. High pressure.
If you find early pressure signs, stop adding powder.

After all that, you have to decide on the tightest shooting charge.

Roll with that charge, and test the bullet jump if you need to. Since I am never shooting bench rest rifles, I test in .005" jump increments. And, you can get away with two shots on the jump test. If two shots looks like shit, there's no need in a third shot.

.010"
.015"
.020"
.025"

Keep going looking for improvement, or an increase in pressure. If you get a jump that two shots looks good, shoot a third shot.

Admittedly, I shoot within ten feet of my loading bench, so this is a whole lot easier. But a guy can set himself up so that he can load "mobilly" at a rifle range.

 

[lash]

^^^This, good response.

One last thing. And I hate to harp on something simple, but so be it. When you are torquing your action into the chassis; after you get both action bolts threaded an lightly engaged, pick up the whole rifle and set it up on its butt. That way, the recoil lug sets tight against the back of the lug.

Then slowly tighten each action screw until lightly snug. Tighten front action screw down to 80% or so of spec, then snug the rear screw a bit more. Go to full tightness on front action screw, then rear action screw.

It sounds like you have another issue, but this has helped a few friends get things settled down in premium chassis.

 

[Garvey]

^^Another good response.

I forgot to write that.

And action screw torque is 65 in/lbs final. Unless it's a soft composite, laminate, or wood stock. Then you're going to need pillars.

I've got an old Sako torn down right now. The rear pillar was not epoxied in the stock and it didn't have a front pillar. Wood stock. I called the customer and told him about all that and that it would be seriously helped if it got a front pillar and bed the stock. He dropped it off for load development, but it is always wise to square away the rifle before actually shooting it.

He gave the perfect question. "What would you do if it were yours?" I said affix the rear pillar, add a front pillar, and bed it." Then he gave the perfect reply. "Then do that."

 

[Rant Durden]

^^Another good response.

I forgot to write that.

And action screw torque is 65 in/lbs final. Unless it's a soft composite, laminate, or wood stock. Then you're going to need pillars.

I've got an old Sako torn down right now. The rear pillar was not epoxied in the stock and it didn't have a front pillar. Wood stock. I called the customer and told him about all that and that it would be seriously helped if it got a front pillar and bed the stock. He dropped it off for load development, but it is always wise to square away the rifle before actually shooting it.

He gave the perfect question. "What would you do if it were yours?" I said affix the rear pillar, add a front pillar, and bed it." Then he gave the perfect reply. "Then do that."

Great suggestions.
I’ve done all the scope stuff, but I’m going to start over. Do you think the powders I’m using are too fast?

 

[Garvey]

Great suggestions.
I’ve done all the scope stuff, but I’m going to start over. Do you think the powders I’m using are too fast?

Yes I do.

Can they be made to produce shooting 300 WSM ammo? Of course. But they are not my first choice. On safe ammo, they are probably not producing a high case fill. In my experience, with the long action magnums as well as the short magnums, filling the brass is a good thing. Of course, with a faster burn rate powder, you just can't do that. You'll hit pressure before you fill the case. So, go to a slower burn rate so that you will fill the case.

For what I do, tight shooting is the first priority. If it also makes decent or high velocity, then that is a bonus. What good is speed if it misses? When you get tight shooting AND velocity, well you're winning.

I will take a slightly slower precise load over a less than precise fast load every time.

I think the slower burn rate powders might help in your project.

 

[jakelly]

Yeah, you should try four or five different slower powders. Also buy a couple hundred heavier bullets, maybe some 215s or something like that. Don’t be afraid to buy some different primers, too. Make sure you spend several hundred dollars, that part is important, make sure it hurts a little. Really put the time into testing loads at the range. Forsake other things you could experience, especially with your kids. It’s so close to Christmas you can probably cause a fight with your wife, which is a huge plus.

Do it this way, so when you finally swap the barrel you’ll remember the lesson this tomato stake taught you. And next time there won’t be a thread asking how many more hundreds of dollars and dozens of hours you should spend chasing not quite acceptable performance from a $20 dollar Savage barrel.

 

[Gohring65]

Sell it and move on.
Get something that feeds better in 300 prc. All those older 30 cal magnums are becoming novelties. I moved away from savage when I got the primary extraction fixed on my remmy 700s, couldn’t believe what I was settling for, even the old 700s are leaps and bounds better at feeding than the savage. I now own only one savage and it’s a single shot.

 

[Garvey]

Yeah, you should try four or five different slower powders. Also buy a couple hundred heavier bullets, maybe some 215s or something like that. Don’t be afraid to buy some different primers, too. Make sure you spend several hundred dollars, that part is important, make sure it hurts a little. Really put the time into testing loads at the range. Forsake other things you could experience, especially with your kids. It’s so close to Christmas you can probably cause a fight with your wife, which is a huge plus.

Do it this way, so when you finally swap the barrel you’ll remember the lesson this tomato stake taught you. And next time there won’t be a thread asking how many more hundreds of dollars and dozens of hours you should spend chasing not quite acceptable performance from a $20 dollar Savage barrel.

No way do loading components retain any value. No way can a guy resell any of it.

Some people do not have as much quit in them as you do.

One pound of powder at $50 is likely going to be cheaper than any barrel.

Find a combo that works and have to change lot numbers, because he only bought one pound. And it's not the end of the world.

 

[Rant Durden]

Sell it and move on.
Get something that feeds better in 300 prc. All those older 30 cal magnums are becoming novelties. I moved away from savage when I got the primary extraction fixed on my remmy 700s, couldn’t believe what I was settling for, even the old 700s are leaps and bounds better at feeding than the savage. I now own only one savage and it’s a single shot.

Funny thing is this gun has always fed really well. The accustock was fine and the new mdt stock with ai mag feeds perfectly.

 

[Gohring65]

Funny thing is this gun has always fed really well. The accustock was fine and the new mdt stock with ai mag feeds perfectly.

I had a 7mag and a 300 win mag savage 110s. I couldn’t get them to shoot better than 1.5 moa, I sold the 300 win mag to a hunter that was completely happy with 1.5”. I kept the 7 mag for a little while and one day I decided to free recoil it at the bench, I used very little shoulder contact and just the trigger finger touching. The rifle printed 3 consecutive half minute 5 shot groups. Turns out the rifle didn’t like to be touched. I still sold it because that’s just not my style of shooting.

 

[jakelly]

No way do loading components retain any value. No way can a guy resell any of it.

Some people do not have as much quit in them as you do.

One pound of powder at $50 is likely going to be cheaper than any barrel.

Find a combo that works and have to change lot numbers, because he only bought one pound. And it's not the end of the world.

That’s the spirit! True grit!

Show that barrel who’s boss!

When a man says buy once - cry once he needs to mean it.

 

[Bobby Ball]

Have you checked the barrel crown? If it possibly got nicked somehow? Or if the threads on the muzzle brake (if you have one) are very tight and distorting the end of the muzzle?

 

[Garvey]

That’s the spirit! True grit!

Show that barrel who’s boss!

When a man says buy once - cry once he needs to mean it.

Historically Savages cycle like shit, but shoot well. The ole Savage double stroke trying to get a round chambered. Then the weak ass ejection spring. I've installed about seven ejector springs in two actions, and still own one action. I finally gave up and let it not eject. It's a 3 day a year prairie dog rifle anyway. So it's fine that it doesn't eject. It keeps me from losing brass. But I've seen Savage barrels lay down some quite tight shooting hand loads.

OP has already invested in a chassis. Which I would bet cost more than the original rifle.
A little chemistry adjustment "might" make this barrel come to life. It's dang sure worth a try.

In the grand scheme of things. A newer to the market "budget rifle", the Ruger American. They cycle a little bit better. But I wish they would have made one more pass in the lathe, when they were building the bolt. Striations around the bolt drive me crazy. But, I've shot those rifles and am always impressed at how tight they shoot.

 

[wadebrown]

Have you tried some slower powders, I would reach for H4831 to start and then maybe into the Reloader 22, 23, 25 and maybe 26. Case fill can tell you a lot about the powders to give a try to is you are using too fast of a powder the case fill will be low if you can't get enough powder in to get appropriate velocities the powder you are using is probably too slow. These are are rules of thumb as such there are no sure things. I have no direct experience with 300 WSM my only WSM was a 6.5 about 2 months after they announced the 300 WSM so that is almost ancient history.

As others have suggested 2 MOA from a Savage maybe you should look at issues other than ammo, I find Savages butt ugly but I have to say they usually shoot great and are responsible for getting a lot of people into precision shooting. One thing to remember if you won a factory stock Savage is "put the borescope down" if you take a peak at the rough cobble stone texture of the bore you will never be able to shoot it accurately as the picture will convince you "this gun can't shoot."

I have found older Savages prone to the front action screw loosening up on its own, don't know if that is a current Gremlin. Other standard things to try
- Get a known shooter behind it and see what it does, even if you have rifles you shoot great sometimes the interface between a particular gun and you is just "off". This is one of the hardest things to do as your ego is at risk but it is a good way to diagnose is it my rifle. I have seen good shooters not be able to shoot a good shooting gun, but do fantastic behind their rig. Also it is easy to get psyched out by a gun that you have had such bad luck with, precision shooting takes so many things to align that the head can get in the way, that is sometimes where a known shooter behind a suspect gun can help out immensely.
- Check the full optics mounting system and the scope itself, if you have a scope that you know is consistent put it on the rifle and take it out, after you torque the base and rings.
- Action screws make sure they are torqued
- Is something making contact with the barrel, fold a dollar bill in half and it should easily slide between the stock and barrel over the full length
- Bed the action.

If all of the above fails and you still have interest and money and like the Savage platform get a prefit from someone like Northland Supply spin it on and most would bet it will shoot a house afire after that. It will be a waste of money on the barrel if you don't really like the Savage platform. Start with another platform if the Savage is not shooting before a major transplant.

Good luck and have good evening,
wade

 

[Rant Durden]

Took the gun down to barreled action, put it app back together and double checked torque. I also loaded some 165 TSX and 180 TSX rounds with 4831sc.
My control rounds were the previously mentioned 4451 load with 165 TSX’s.
The previous load shot about the same as I had experienced before, about 1 1/2 inches at 50 yards (I didn’t have time to get to the 100 yard range). All three loads with 4831sc shot groups about a half an inch, better than I’ve ever been able to get out of this gun! I’m super stoked about this and will be loading more to confirm these results, but all three loads shot with the 160’s and 185 so I’m pretty confident a slower powder is the the answer that I need.
Thank you all for your help, the Hides provides.

 

[wadebrown]

All three loads with 4831sc shot groups about a half an inch, better than I’ve ever been able to get out of this gun! I’m super stoked about this and will be loading more to confirm these results, but all three loads shot with the 160’s and 185 so I’m pretty confident a slower powder is the the answer that I need.
Thank you all for your help, the Hides provides.

Glad you got the gun shooting better.

I burn a lot of H4831SC and then H1000 and then H4350 for my 270, 30-06 hunting rounds.

 

[lash]

All good powders to try and keep on hand, for sure.

 

[Rant Durden]

One last update. Went to the range again yesterday and had two groups that were about 1/2” at 100 yards. I would say this problem is solved.
Thanks again for the help!

 

[Aftermath]

One last update. Went to the range again yesterday and had two groups that were about 1/2” at 100 yards. I would say this problem is solved.
Thanks again for the help!

2 does not a trend make.
When you are getting groups of 0.5 MOA (0.2 or so MIL) on pretty much every 3-5 round group for say 100 or more rounds, THEN you know. 2 groups of 3 or 5 rounds does not really mean much to me other than the planets aligned for you and shit.
How many groups did you shoot? How many rounds each? (I prefer 10 round groups, but I'm no real guru)
What did your other groups measure?
What would the aggregate mathematical mean be?
There are many, especially amongst the rimfire guys that want to shoot 50 (or more) round groups and I am leaning that direction. Your cone of accuracy will VERY likely be defined by this approach.

However, don't take me wrong. You really probably are on the right track. I'd be real optimistic at this point myself.

 

[jakelly]

I’m pretty surprised it went from 3” to 1/2” all day by switching from 4350 to 4831sc. Yet another sub 1/2” Savage.