F T/R Competition I am really liking this rifle to help me read wind at 300 yards!

[diego-ted]

Savage FCP 1n 223.



300 yard 10 shot group in mild wind, yea I know I missed one!



I could really see the wind push the 75gr AMAXs even in the mild conditions today. The bullet and mirage were in sync!

Diego

 

[DanSavage]

I agree! I've shot .308 for years in match's and I've just started shooting a Savage .223, and it is wonderfull. I've been shooting 69 smk's and you definitely have to pay close attention to what the wind is doing for long string's of fire.

 

[cornhusker]

From what I have seen the wind does not seem to effect the 223 as much as my 6br ?
I remember other shooters of long ago saying the same things about the smaller calibers.

If this be the case,I have no scientific proof...But from my own past experince,it seems to
be the case..

 

[DanSavage]

You may be right Cornhusker, I was thinking that may be true if one is using a 69 gr bullet in 6mm vs. a 69 gr bullet in .223. It seems the .223 bullet would have a better b.c. because it would be longer and skinnier. 6br with the heavy bullets and a fast twist barrel would definitely be less affected by wind.

 

[gstaylorg]

A good 6BR load with something like 105 Hybrids will be significantly less affected by wind than almost any .223, even at distances as close as 300 yd. It will generally outperform most .308 loads as well, unless really heavy high BC bullets are used. Ted and I regularly get schooled by a friend that shoots a 6BR at our monthly 300 yd matches. For me, it doesn't matter much whether I'm shooting my .223 with 80.5s at 2860 fps, or a .308 with 185s at 2770 fps. The 6BR still has much better performance.

Ted, it looks like you've got that load dialed in pretty darned well. You should bring it out and shoot it at the next SBRGC match. We can get a .223 "clique" going at the monthly matches. If nothing else, if you don't shoot well you can always tell yourself it's because you're ballistically "challenged" using a .223. Works for me .

 

[diego-ted]

Greg, when and if I can learn to shoot this like you do the #1 223 crusader, I will consider shooting it at the SBRG match.

Ted

 

[steve_podleski]

if you had moved you windage 1/2 moa right and up for the whole group the wind would not have been a problem

 

[steve_podleski]

if you had moved you windage and elevation 1/2 moa right and up for the whole group the wind would not have been a problem

 

[gstaylorg]

Here's the thing...that little red dot in the center...you really want to be aiming directly at it, not an inch low and left (LOL). Seriously, that group is right up there with my 80.5 load, I'd shoot that at South Bay any time with no reservations. I think you'd do very well with it unless the wind was unusually squirrelly. I personally just find it a lot of fun to shoot a .223 in those matches.

 

[diego-ted]

if you had moved you windage and elevation 1/2 moa right and up for the whole group the wind would not have been a problem

For sure, but I was shooting for MOA not location, if this would have been a match I would have adjusted POA to center the group more to center, {doesn't always work as planned, ask me how I know!!!)

Diego

 

[DanSavage]

I really got schooled by the wind today at a 300 yard match. Managed a 181-15x with up to 15 mph switchy tail winds that blew my 69 smks with ease.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

For sure, but I was shooting for MOA not location, if this would have been a match I would have adjusted POA to center the group more to center, {doesn't always work as planned, ask me how I know!!!)

Diego

Here's an idea to make it all work as planned. Plot your calls and shots in your score book. Begin by annotating your starting no-wind zero and actual zero used for wind and weather conditions as presented from shot to shot. Record ending no wind zero. Use of the data book helps you see trends to get both MOA and score. After all, not making an adjustment for shot placement off call due to wind or other means more misplacement which will increase MOA as well as score. Bottom line, you might want to practice in the manner and with the tools that you would use shooting in a tournament. It will condition you for better results. All it requires is discipline and a mindset that keeps the objective in focus.

BTW, the bullet you are shooting has such a high b.c. that, at 300 yards, even a 5 mph full value wind change not countered for would not have a consequence on the SR target if you can hold elevation with match grade ammunition, only about an inch and half of drift. I used the 75 AMAX for 600 yard and 1000 yard Service Rifle competition with good results, but today, I am using the 80 grain Berger, which, from scores posted, suggests that I am either a better shooter today or I am shooting a better bullet. With my tired eyes, I think my better scores are coming from my selected bullet.

 

[diego-ted]

Sterling, thanks for the info. Now that the load is developed and the rifle is sound, I.see lots of practice in my future.

Diego

 

[gstaylorg]

Ted, a 5 mph full value wind should move the 75 Amax slightly more than 1 MOA at 300 yd. Certainly more than enough to be well into the 9-ring with a center hold. Based on your target above, I think your load and that grouping are right where you want them to be, particularly if the wind was swirling around and back and forth like it often does at South Bay. Like I said before, you ought to use that combo at the next Reduced Palma match, trust me it's a lot of fun shooting a .223 in those matches.

I went out to Pala yesterday with the 90 VLD load, even though I'm not completely finished with the development yet. I shot 2 x 10-shot targets at 600 yd. Conditions were a fishtailing tailwind from about 8:00 to 4:00, maybe 3-4 mph, so not too bad. Based on the 600 yd scoring rings, the first group would have been 97-2X, the second 99-3X. The first group was right at 1 MOA overall, but there were several scope adjustments during that string. The 2nd was slightly under 1 MOA wide, and about 0.6 MOA vertical. All the 9's were no more than one bullet hole outside the line, but a lot of the 10s were well outside the X-ring. So the load definitely still needs some work. I'm confident that after the seating depth testing and once I have enough once-fired brass to prep, that should tighten up noticeably. If I can get both of those things done in the next couple weeks, I might just bring out to South Bay, even though shooting it at 300 yd is not exactly what I planned when I had it built.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Ted, a 5 mph full value wind should move the 75 Amax slightly more than 1 MOA at 300 yd. Certainly more than enough to be well into the 9-ring with a center hold. Based on your target above, I think your load and that grouping are right where you want them to be, particularly if the wind was swirling around and back and forth like it often does at South Bay. Like I said before, you ought to use that combo at the next Reduced Palma match, trust me it's a lot of fun shooting a .223 in those matches.

I went out to Pala yesterday with the 90 VLD load, even though I'm not completely finished with the development yet. I shot 2 x 10-shot targets at 600 yd. Conditions were a fishtailing tailwind from about 8:00 to 4:00, maybe 3-4 mph, so not too bad. Based on the 600 yd scoring rings, the first group would have been 97-2X, the second 99-3X. The first group was right at 1 MOA overall, but there were several scope adjustments during that string. The 2nd was slightly under 1 MOA wide, and about 0.6 MOA vertical. All the 9's were no more than one bullet hole outside the line, but a lot of the 10s were well outside the X-ring. So the load definitely still needs some work. I'm confident that after the seating depth testing and once I have enough once-fired brass to prep, that should tighten up noticeably. If I can get both of those things done in the next couple weeks, I might just bring out to South Bay, even though shooting it at 300 yd is not exactly what I planned when I had it built.

The 75 grain AMAX actually only moves about a quarter MOA at 300 yards from a full value 5 mph wind, that's about 3/4 inch at target. Allowing for resolution with irons, I would not need to adjust my sights to still get a scratch X when holding good elevation.

 

[gstaylorg]

Not in my hands. I also shoot an 80.5 gr Berger with a significantly higher BC in our 300 yd matches. I have fired literally hundreds of rounds of this load and I can assure you it will move very close to 1 MOA in a 5 mph full value wind. My measurements of horizontal displacement using these bullets due to wind deflection are also in perfect agreement with more than one ballistic calculator. I do not care to argue bullet displacement results with you. You may well have seen something different, but your estimates are simply not even close to what the predicted and observed ballistics are for those bullets in my hands. Because Ted and I shoot in matches at the same ranges, I rather suspect his results will be the same as mine.

 

[BC 6.8]

gstaylorg & Sterling - I think you guys are talking about two different targets. gstaylorg is obviously talking about the F class 300 yd reduced target (MR-63FC), and I think Sterling is talking about the high power target for 300 yds (MR-63)

 

[DanSavage]

Keep in mind that the velocity of which these bullets are being fired can play a huge role in wind drift from one rifle to another. I do think that a 3/4" drift with a full value cross wind at 300 yards is a little far fetched, unless you are screaming the lights out of a .223 and those 75 grainers.

 

[gstaylorg]

The target has nothing whatsoever to do with the value of angular wind deflection, only the score that results when the bullet is deflected. MOA is MOA and wind deflection is wind deflection, regardless of what size the rings on the target happen to be or how many points you might drop. I often shoot Berger 80.5s at 2860 fps in our monthly 300 yd match. The drift at 300 yd is dead on 0.2 MOA per mph (full value) wind. For all practical purposes, it's identical to FGMM 175s at 2750 fps out of a .308 bolt gun I also occasionally use in these matches. Ted is shooting a 75 gr Amax at 2825 fps. It has a slightly lower BC and is going slightly slower than my 80.5s, so it's going to drift just a little more in the same wind. I have no idea what other people may see in different wind conditions at other locations, but I do have a pretty good idea of what Ted's bullets will do at our 300 yd range here in SD. The wind at this range is usually not strong, 5-7 mph is generally about the max we'll ever see due to the geography. However, it swirls and switches back and forth very rapidly and I am all too aware that a quick switch in a 5 mph wind is more than enough to push the bullet off by 1 MOA. Ted and I have both seen these conditions on numerous occasions, and if you miss the switch it is very easy to be off by a minute (or more) right/left with a center hold. On the MR63-FC targets we use in these matches (0.95 MOA 10-ring), a missed wind call will put you well out into the 9-ring every time. If the deflection was only 1/4 MOA, with the wind conditions here I could hold center and never drop any points to wind. Sadly, that is simply not the case .