SHoot it if it shoots great if not purchase a Manson crowning tool kit cut the shitty end off with a sawzall and crown it. After you shoot it look for copper if the very end seems to hold more than the rest of the bore and you don't like that apply the same as above. Shoot it first If the smith didn't cut off the end as some stated it might be bell mouthed which will make it shoot less than its full potential. It doesn't matter what caused it it shoots keep it if it doesn't you have the above option or return it
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I borescoped an unused cut rifled barrel: help me learn about what I'm looking at.
- Thread starter Obrez
- Start date
I appreciate the responses from those who read the original post; however, I should have known better and I regret creating this thread. 
Figured what the heck, lets take a look at a precision barrel too.
It's just a cheapo teslong I bought because I was curious about some of my surplus guns and wanted to do some comparison experiments between ammo types in barrels from the same manufacturer. I bought it a while ago without really thinking. I don't endorse buying stuff made in china.
Figured what the heck, lets take a look at a precision barrel too.
Well @Obrez , in the spirit of curiosity I’d like to ask you a couple questions.
1) If you were to shoot the barrel first, what level of accuracy would prove to you whether the flaws are an issue? What would be your high and low thresholds? Ex. <=3/8” I don’t care about it. >=5/8” It’s getting fixed.
2) How many rounds would you be willing to use to chase an acceptable load? Powder and bullet swaps, seating depth changes, etc.
3) Would you ever completely trust it?
Since it’s your barrel, I’m genuinely curious.
1) If you were to shoot the barrel first, what level of accuracy would prove to you whether the flaws are an issue? What would be your high and low thresholds? Ex. <=3/8” I don’t care about it. >=5/8” It’s getting fixed.
2) How many rounds would you be willing to use to chase an acceptable load? Powder and bullet swaps, seating depth changes, etc.
3) Would you ever completely trust it?
Since it’s your barrel, I’m genuinely curious.
I would pick the barrel that shoots the best regardless of the artefacts found from manufacturing I find in it looking through it with a bore scope.
What if the barrel with the mirror shine has a bore that deviates an amount from the centerline enough to affect accuracy?
What if this only shows after it heating up enough?
Oh, and considering it's a 1000 y match, my wind call would probably play more into it than anything else.
Semantics.
I cannot argue against "if it shoots, keep it" with anything except that it might for example, accumulate copper faster and cause POI changes. Noone really knows how those faults effect accuracy in the long run.
What I can argue is that whether the change in the barrel is on average towards better or worse accuracy. If you think a barrel was the same all the way of the rifling, you could have a guess on it towards worse accuracy.
There are no torture tests done, thus we have no data. By a stretch of imagination this "Cerebral's fingerprint" (where you take a drill to the barrel end before installing it) might improve it. But I have just not heard of anyone using this method before.
No, that's not semantics. What I described is a condition you can't see with a bore scope nor measure if the conditions when the fault appears is not met.
(Semantics are when two words/sentences have the same meaning.)
Exactly, you won't know until you've tried it. So guess away. You guess and I try and well see who comes out on top.
Well, you have to take a drill to the bar to make a bore. But that is something I can't take credit for since people have been doing that since way before I was born.
Chill dude... this is a fight you can't win. It's on the interwebs godammit. Go shoot or something....
I am shooting god dammit. Every weekend..
And I have no fight in this, as said I believe crap barrels can shoot too.
I mentioned semantics as one could measure all kind of stuff wrong that is obviously wrong with a barrel, but it could still shoot.
I bet someone could show a barrel driven over with a car, bent to shit. And people here would still go "does it shoot".
It has no doubt truth in it. But I would maybe be inclined to say it won't be the best version of that barrel it could be.
I liked the comment about bore cleaning, I could not do that kind of damage that is seen with a cleaning stick if I wanted to. So somehow damage done while cleaning is massively worse than a barrel maker / smith can do.
Wow, like the OP I too was interested in what I could learn from this thread and w guys like Mr Green and others chiming in I did indeed do so.
I also learned that I’m pretty sure I don’t want any gunsmith spinning a barrel for me whose mantra is “shit happens”
now let me ask this...Say the OP puts this barrel on, goes to shoot it, and gets crappy groups and comes to the board w this info. Based on past threads on the Hide, how many members Do you think will immediately jump in and beat him like a rug and tell him it’s all due to his crappy shooting? Just saying, it wouldn’t be the first time, right?
I also learned that I’m pretty sure I don’t want any gunsmith spinning a barrel for me whose mantra is “shit happens”
now let me ask this...Say the OP puts this barrel on, goes to shoot it, and gets crappy groups and comes to the board w this info. Based on past threads on the Hide, how many members Do you think will immediately jump in and beat him like a rug and tell him it’s all due to his crappy shooting? Just saying, it wouldn’t be the first time, right?
Ignorance is bliss.
If you saw what happens in a commercial Kitchen you would NEVER eat out
If you saw how wine was made and what contaminates end up in it, you would NEVER drink wine.
If you saw how spam or scrapple is made, you would NEVER eat it.
If you saw how a million different things are done, you wouldnt want anything to do with it.
Are you a gunsmith? Are you a machinist? You have no clue what they are doing or how they are doing it or what "mistakes" and "opps" get covered up or fixed or grinded off. You don't know what they are culling and what is acceptable. You aren't supplying or reading their prints nor are you in their inspection room verifying compliance to said prints.
This fucking holier than thou attitude from people who don't even understand the basics of what goes into getting them their products is getting old.
It has been said repeatedly, there is a course of action to take if the barrel does not shoot. That is where a borescope may have value or there may be validity.
Do you break down every factory bullet you buy and make sure every kernel of powder is the exact same as to not impede the optimal flow of gas to ensure the same ignition and expansion?
Do you ensure the surface finish of the base of your boat tail bullet is within 2 microns so said gas can seat itself perfectly?
Does the brass get dimensional checked to ensure one casewall is not .0001 thicker than the other side, as that may bias said gas glow as it rests on the 2 micron surface of said bullet to ensure absolute concentrically as it travels down the bore?
Yet somehow a dude with factory ammo with uneven kernels, non surface grinded boat tail and uneven brass is shooting world records out of his barrel that looks like shit under a $20 borescope from china. Amazing right?
You can play this game till we are arguing over electrons and protons.
Those people are the ones who paid for it and I'm pretty sure they don't give a flying fuck what you think about their thoughts on their purchase.
And, its the buyer's opinion that matter as to whether a business stays in business or not....and I don't give a flying fuck if its machinist work or baby bottles. The ones who pay for it are the ones who decide if they are satisfied or not.
And talk about holier than thou.... I'm sort of thinking you're a world champ at it.
You must have the worst case of flaming, huge, bleeding hemorrhoids to cause you to be such an arrogant, condescending, insulting, argumentative, dismissive dickhead in each and every fucking post of yours that I have seen on this board.
You’re not a veterinarian, there’s NO way you could diagnose hemorrhoids.
And you are not a urologist, there’s NO way you could know if he’s a dickhead.
And you are not a urologist, there’s NO way you could know if he’s a dickhead.
See this is why I got my bravo in Sako green. I notice they did not take a drill to the muzzle. So apples to oranges?
As a “chip maker has been, chip maker manager , super finisher manager, chrome grinder manager, CMM manager, Faro RE manager and amateur barrel butcher” (I hope that’s enough resume to have an opinion) I would not be happy with what the OP shows in the pictures. Having experienced many times customer complaints about things that, myself and our engineers, were sure ( and proved) did not in anyway, effect form or function, I would not hesitate in initiating a conversation with those responsible. At the end of the day if the “anomalies” reduce the OP’s confidence in the barrel, then it matters. Telling everyone how hard it is to cut steel is not a justification to ignore the concern.
Kyle
Kyle
Well, more a comment to "driven over by a car"...See this is why I got my bravo in Sako green. I notice they did not take a drill to the muzzle. So apples to oranges?
The thing is, OP started this thread as to ask what he was seeing through his bore scope. Several persons, including me, asked the pertinent question "How does it shoot?".
Mr Greene chimed in with his thoughts and even he asked "How does it shoot?".
Then some asshats started a discussion regarding workmanship and cost , and that was NOT in question.
So instead of being a thread discussing artefacts from machining seen through a bore scope, it turned into a discussion of money and workmanship. Not OP's intention... and totally pointless.
@CerebralDistortion
When I said barrel torture test, I really meant one. Like, destroying grooves from one point altogether, stratching it deep diagonally and such.
So real, measurable damage that can be then documented and quantified.
"Whatever" Well, you indeed posted "Whatever". Good test, but it is totally out of scope.
I mentioned a barrel driven over that was "bent to shit". It takes more than that to bend it. They tested the stock mainly.
Few clarifying points:
I am not saying that barrel cannot win that 5g competition and beat every other barrel made by that company and any other company.
What I am saying is that any visible deterioriation probably results in less performance. You do not usually improve a barrel by drilling it. Do you agree?
What makes this conversation a bit harder is the concept of the barrel "shooting" or "not shooting". Is 0.5moa good? 1moa? 7moa? Since there is no known brand or price category for each accuracy level, deciding whether it is shooting or not is kind of impossible.
For this case to end like I anticipate, the OP should shoot it, then cut and crown it, and shoot again. And results should improve, at least a slight bit.
But I am lucky as I have no 5g attached to how well it runs.
When I said barrel torture test, I really meant one. Like, destroying grooves from one point altogether, stratching it deep diagonally and such.
So real, measurable damage that can be then documented and quantified.
"Whatever" Well, you indeed posted "Whatever". Good test, but it is totally out of scope.
I mentioned a barrel driven over that was "bent to shit". It takes more than that to bend it. They tested the stock mainly.
Few clarifying points:
I am not saying that barrel cannot win that 5g competition and beat every other barrel made by that company and any other company.
What I am saying is that any visible deterioriation probably results in less performance. You do not usually improve a barrel by drilling it. Do you agree?
What makes this conversation a bit harder is the concept of the barrel "shooting" or "not shooting". Is 0.5moa good? 1moa? 7moa? Since there is no known brand or price category for each accuracy level, deciding whether it is shooting or not is kind of impossible.
For this case to end like I anticipate, the OP should shoot it, then cut and crown it, and shoot again. And results should improve, at least a slight bit.
But I am lucky as I have no 5g attached to how well it runs.
Yes, and I've said as much before. At least my intention was to, but maybe I wasn't clear enough?
The Sako video is a marketing ploy so not intended to actually be a serious contribution to the discussion...
I do think we actually agree on most points (Yes, even the state of the barrel's condition and whether returning it or not). But as I wrote in a previous post, not for this discussion.
There are a lot of things we do not know. Price, optional shortening of the barrel ("Try it out and see how it shoots and I'll shorten it for free if it doesn't work"-policy of the smith for example). Intended use, 2 moa might be enough?
I'm not interested in a discussion of ifs and buts, but of does it shoot and what, if in any way, does the finish of the bore contribute.
The rest is fluff...
Considering every reputable barrel marker has over a year long backlog and every decent smith has enough work to keep them busy for the next year plus, its very much a sellers market.
As long as the tubes they sell shoot, no one gives a shit, other than a few people here who seem to care more about how something looks than how it performs. Since when was long range shooting a beauty contest?
Go ahead and send it back before shooting it, then you can go pickup a hobby like Knitting or yard gnoming while you wait a year for a barrel that may look better and shoot significanty worse then the one already in hand. If only there was a way to tell if a barrel was a good shooter.......
This thread is great.
I know it's a radical thought, but before i decided to throw it in the trash, shoot the shit out of it, or even bet $5K on a $400 barrel, I think I'd probably call the smith and just talk to him about it. Like, maybe he's a decent guy, knows what he's doing and has some advice or something?
I know it's a radical thought, but before i decided to throw it in the trash, shoot the shit out of it, or even bet $5K on a $400 barrel, I think I'd probably call the smith and just talk to him about it. Like, maybe he's a decent guy, knows what he's doing and has some advice or something?
Looks like it's time for a little common sense ( Not that I have any to spare )
A) OP - Contact the 'smith - Document what you found with the Boreccope and get his instructions.
B) Follow his instructions.
Everything else is not applicable to the situation.
If the GS i s going to eat the barrel, let him decide if he wants it cooked or raw.
A) OP - Contact the 'smith - Document what you found with the Boreccope and get his instructions.
B) Follow his instructions.
Everything else is not applicable to the situation.
If the GS i s going to eat the barrel, let him decide if he wants it cooked or raw.
Yep.You:
So instead of being a thread discussing artefacts from machining seen through a bore scope, it turned into a discussion of money and workmanship. Not OP's intention... and totally pointless.
Also You:
The thing is, OP started this thread as to ask what he was seeing through his bore scope. Several persons, including me, asked thepertinentquestion "How does it shoot?".
I’ll add one thing. The only asshats in this thread are the people who cant bring themselves to acknowledge that gouging up finely crafted lands and grooves during final machining is a no-no.
I think that the last sentence of this post is very valid. Many people are stating that if it shoots good don't worry about it. But to me how long it shoots good is very important. And how easy it cleans is valid as well.
I think I would talk to the smith or the barrel maker before I shot it. I think some quality barrel makers would want this one back. Just my honest opinion.
A number of people have already offered some pretty solid info on what likely caused the marks in the barrel. Sounds like the OP had their question answered. The rest of this has been...interesting.
I know arguing on the internet is fun, but to what end? Some folks think attention to detail matters, some folks think function is supreme and some folks think the two are strongly related...and, like every other argument on the internet, not a single person has changed their position meaningfully in three pages...
It's amazing how much mileage we've gotten out of whether a piece of equipment marketed as precision machined to exacting tolerances and hand lapped should evidence defects/machine marks obviously visible to the naked eye, though. Carry on! ;-)
I know arguing on the internet is fun, but to what end? Some folks think attention to detail matters, some folks think function is supreme and some folks think the two are strongly related...and, like every other argument on the internet, not a single person has changed their position meaningfully in three pages...
It's amazing how much mileage we've gotten out of whether a piece of equipment marketed as precision machined to exacting tolerances and hand lapped should evidence defects/machine marks obviously visible to the naked eye, though. Carry on! ;-)
