I have a Zero Obsession Lately

[Lowlight]

Everything has to start somewhere and for us, it’s with the Zeroing process

We talk a lot about the Shot Process, question, what is your Shot Process ?

Beyond my precision rifle classes, I am lucky enough to sit on others, the Riflekraft, CR2, etc, I‘m endless observer and like to solve problems when needed, identify an issue and I want to fix it.

Zeroes, zeroes have me on edge. I mean it’s easy enough, but is it. Problems in our shooting can start and stop with a bad zero or misunderstood one. Misunderstood is the right word too, We often see people the scope is set to 4.2 and you ask them, What is that, and they reply, my zero… why is it there, well I figured, A, B, C, which none of them are relevant. Why is the zero so misunderstood ?

How can I address it, cause i want to address it. It‘s a process not an event so it needs to follow the correct format for the process.

Chris had a shooter out last week and several times it was, “If you refine your zero that will fix that”. Okay let’s talk refinement here, i want to hear from you guys so I can clean this up

What are some of the techniques you use to zero ?

How would you refine your zero ?

Do you have a zero shift from position and do you consider putting that into your zero ?

I have a plan to solve this but i need more input, what confuses people, what is a first hand, no shit it happened me, are you fucking kidding me zero story ?

I want to solve this with a process, A, B, C, for max efficiency

 

[corsairpilot62]

To be honest the Zeroing does seem simple and hard at the same time. First off im just a range monkey so. I zero first with a 25yrd. Where am i hitting. Move reticle over. Repeat on 50yd, 75yd, and a 100yds. Its tedious and in my case seems to eat up a lot of ammo. I do let the barrel cool between segmented zeros.

I hope this helps and i apologize if i have been licking windows.

 

[Lowlight]

There are all kinds of questions

Do you zero in early morning or late evening,

I zero .1 left of center

its a weird thing, just as noted super simplistic but at the same time, too many get it wrong

 

[1911hombre]

I end up guesstimating on the windage because at 100 yards I'm unsure how much to compensate, especially if wind is gusty. I just fudge it by feel and never know.

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

I zero .1 left of center

Why?

 

[Lowlight]

Why do you think

there are several reasons I do it,

One is because I am right handed shooter and any mistakes I make will go right so a .1 left helps me a bit

it also gives me a defined edge if I need one, consider a 3/8” round circle, I can hold the right edge and know I will be inside it

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

Why do you think

there are several reasons I do it,

One is because I am right handed shooter and any mistakes I make will go right so a .1 left helps me a bit

it also gives me a defined edge if I need one, consider a 3/8” round circle, I can hold the right edge and know I will be inside it

I could not think of any reasons, which is why I asked. I am kind of new to all this, even new here on SnipersHide, and still back in 2018, episode 11, in getting caught up on your podcasts . . .

 

[ma smith]

Couple of discussion topics:

ONE: Math zero.
This is a little bit involved, but its much more reliable than other methods.

TWO: Field Zero
Its necessary to have a field-zero method. Eg for matches or hunting. Quick and dirty and no math.

THREE: Zero retention.
Another topic is the optic. Tracking is great, but the optic also needs to hold zero.

 

[Lowlight]

In all our classes we test the scopes, we use the 30LBS fixture to run them on a Tall Target
But that is just one part of the check because, RINGS, RINGS are not all created equal

We will dope the rifles out to 1k and then return to 100 and check zero to see who does not come back to the same place. In some cases its the scope in other cases its the rings. We can usually move them and fix the problem

But yes most of us use a field zero

 

[Near miss]

I keep track of my groups along with occasional zero efforts.

As a mainly semiauto shooter I forgive myself some inaccuracy. I just tested my old load and zeroing was shooting in the dark at 100m laying in a puddle of water in the rain with 2-6mph wind from 1600. Breaked group was right on point and suppressed .2 down.

I shot 9 and 11 shots.

I just hope my strategy to shoot when the wind paused worked well. If not, it might be up to .1 right but I am somewhat OK with it, I have it marked down and acknowledge it.

The bolt gun I shoot smaller shot counts of 3 to 5 but it does pretty much the same group at 300m that my AR does at 100m (with the current barrel).

The biggest problem is settling on a load, be it factory or reloaded and actually zero on it.

One of my bad habits is not correcting zero but being ok that I am .1 right or left. This is maybe because I shoot bulk ammo too which is is off by .2 R but maybe I have a slight problem with windage variance in groups too. Both in wind reading and shooting itself. I shoot near coast so I rarely have no wind at all.

So put another way, I do not change my zero, I observe it. Tbh, a clear change in zero more like warrants you to check equipment than reset it.

Zeroing is an endless task but I do still trust my zero when it comes down to it.

 

[W54/XM-388]

I normally do static range shooting using the maximum magnification on my scope.
What I like is trying to hit exactly the spot I'm aiming for.
I'm usually going to zero my scope at 100 yards from a bench using either a nice full single or 2 piece rest, or sturdy supporting sandbags.
Due to time and distance issues, my zeros are done late morning to early afternoon in mid 70s conditions.
On the targets I use, they have 1CM squares which makes it pretty easy to work with when using .mil scopes
(the local ranges are in yards but at 100 the error difference from meters to yards at around 2850 fps MV is tiny when you are simply trying to figure out how many clicks to go up or down to get about where you want to be)
the center aim point is about a 1CM circle with a crosshair in the middle.
From a rest, I try to get as close to the center of the crosshair as possible, however with most of my scopes being 0.1 mil I have to get as close to that as possible with the limits of adjustment. Then I set my Zero on the turrents to be at that exact point.

I do find that due to my slight error in positions, there is a slight difference between exact POI from the bench position to the prone position, unless I am very careful to get perfectly in line, however the difference at 100 is less than a single click on the scope

Fortunately I don't have to worry about any differences in cold bore, or recently cleaned or after a group of shots issue as it's never seemed to affect the POI

Here is an example of how the zero shifts from right on the + when I'm slightly off on the position, but still less than a single click on a 0.1 mil scope.

 

[babyguppy]

I normally do static range shooting using the maximum magnification on my scope.
What I like is trying to hit exactly the spot I'm aiming for.
I'm usually going to zero my scope at 100 yards from a bench using either a nice full single or 2 piece rest, or sturdy supporting sandbags.
Due to time and distance issues, my zeros are done late morning to early afternoon in mid 70s conditions.
On the targets I use, they have 1CM squares which makes it pretty easy to work with when using .mil scopes
(the local ranges are in yards but at 100 the error difference from meters to yards at around 2850 fps MV is tiny when you are simply trying to figure out how many clicks to go up or down to get about where you want to be)
the center aim point is about a 1CM circle with a crosshair in the middle.
From a rest, I try to get as close to the center of the crosshair as possible, however with most of my scopes being 0.1 mil I have to get as close to that as possible with the limits of adjustment. Then I set my Zero on the turrents to be at that exact point.

I do find that due to my slight error in positions, there is a slight difference between exact POI from the bench position to the prone position, unless I am very careful to get perfectly in line, however the difference at 100 is less than a single click on the scope

Fortunately I don't have to worry about any differences in cold bore, or recently cleaned or after a group of shots issue as it's never seemed to affect the POI

Here is an example of how the zero shifts from right on the + when I'm slightly off on the position, but still less than a single click on a 0.1 mil scope.

View attachment 8078987

LOL, for a second I thought this was a soft drink ad
damn near identical to W54...
edit -
I check my zero, but adjust my scope 1 mil or 1 MOA high. (I do this for groups as well) This way I don't shoot out my dot that I'm zeroing on; set it back to zero and shoot out the dot when I'm done.
Barrel cools down better in the morning, so I can shoot a bit more. concrete benches, sandbags, everything.
then I shoot through out the day and enjoy the crap that the mirage throws at me.

 

[howler]

One thing Francis Colon and Chad Heckler talked about on their podcast that had me thinking was zeroing from different shooting positions (like prone, barricade, bench, etc.) and how that can influence your perceived zero and also how parallax can impact your zero.

A lot of newer shooters don’t really understand parallax and the impact it can have.

 

[diverdon]

I always want to zero at 100 yards because metric well screw that, we're Americans.

But I do get confused sometimes with the zero stop. I seen some precision shooters set their zero stop below their 100 yard zero. They tell me that they need to be able to dial 10 -90 yards.

I like the theory but in real life shooting with my attention span and memory it seems I might fuck it up. So I have resolved that if for some reason I had to hit a golf ball under 100 I would use Kentucky windage to hold under.

I'm just saying zero stop settings and short shots should be part of the discussion, or at least part of the solution.

 

[Rust]

Being simple minded, my process is pretty straightforward. Stick a collimator on the end of the barrel for a rough zero, take it to the range with a middle of the road load and zero at 100 (not a lot of handy longer ranges), develop a load for maximum accuracy with decent SD/ES numbers, set zero for that load. Find a long range and check computed ballistics against actual results, correct the dope. The rest is conditional math, primarily altitude above sea level for straight line trajectory and, try to read the wind.

Positional accuracy problems are (IMO) caused by inconsistencies/differences in hold resulting in differing control of the recoil impulse. Practice for consistency.

 

[Hondo64d]

Everything has to start somewhere and for us, it’s with the Zeroing process

We talk a lot about the Shot Process, question, what is your Shot Process ?

Beyond my precision rifle classes, I am lucky enough to sit on others, the Riflekraft, CR2, etc, I‘m endless observer and like to solve problems when needed, identify an issue and I want to fix it.

Zeroes, zeroes have me on edge. I mean it’s easy enough, but is it. Problems in our shooting can start and stop with a bad zero or misunderstood one. Misunderstood is the right word too, We often see people the scope is set to 4.2 and you ask them, What is that, and they reply, my zero… why is it there, well I figured, A, B, C, which none of them are relevant. Why is the zero so misunderstood ?

How can I address it, cause i want to address it. It‘s a process not an event so it needs to follow the correct format for the process.

Chris had a shooter out last week and several times it was, “If you refine your zero that will fix that”. Okay let’s talk refinement here, i want to hear from you guys so I can clean this up

What are some of the techniques you use to zero ?

How would you refine your zero ?

Do you have a zero shift from position and do you consider putting that into your zero ?

I have a plan to solve this but i need more input, what confuses people, what is a first hand, no shit it happened me, are you fucking kidding me zero story ?

I want to solve this with a process, A, B, C, for max efficiency

I like to use enough shots in my zero confirmation group to ensure there’s some statistical validity there. Three shots doesn’t cut it. I’ve seen far too many times where guys accept the results of a three shot zeroing group only to wonder why their rifle doesn’t hit the POA the next group. Five is better, but doesn’t give me a warm and fuzzy. Ten is what I use but there are solid arguments stating 20-30 shots if you want a super high level of confidence in your zero.

John

 

[ma smith]

IMHO, a decent maths zero takes 10-20 shots to establish. But you need to be careful of incorporating user or other outside influence (wind shifts, etc).

 

[brianf]

I think the core “issue” is the zeros “intended purpose”.

Is it:

swat team that is multi position with no warm up

Weapon with multiple users

heavy class BR rail gun with sighters


I think a zero may need to be categorized, and each category has a default SOP.

The best SOP’s are written in conjunction with QA/QC, regulatory and the actual operator of the equipment.


You won’t take a dragster on a road course, just because one person suggests it

 

[wade2big]

I always want to zero at 100 yards because metric well screw that, we're Americans.

But I do get confused sometimes with the zero stop. I seen some precision shooters set their zero stop below their 100 yard zero. They tell me that they need to be able to dial 10 -90 yards.

I like the theory but in real life shooting with my attention span and memory it seems I might fuck it up. So I have resolved that if for some reason I had to hit a golf ball under 100 I would use Kentucky windage to hold under.

I'm just saying zero stop settings and short shots should be part of the discussion, or at least part of the solution.

The reasoning stated to you is incorrect anyhow. From a 100 yard zero, anything closer would need a hold over. Of course it would need to be a small target to matter and the closer to the shooter the more it matters.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Tag for later

 

[Lowlight]

Multipurpose zeroes

Positional zeros - for the Kraft drill I nudged mine between prone and standing as I have a small offset

I like it

 

[Rocketvapor]

The wife and I zero @ 100 yards.
Being maybe a little better than MOA shooters @ 100, we test dope @ 300, shoot in the wind @ 600.
Load development is tough if you can't always get tiny little groups.
Getting better so the 100yd zero is updated from time to time, then the dope testing all over again.
Wife on the left 100 yd target, me on the right.

This winter we got the chance to test cold weather shooting (cold for south Louisiana).
75F 600 yard was 3.1 mils, 46F 3.2 mils, and last Saturday first relay was shot @ 36F, 3.3 mils.
Lost 0.1 mil due to air, and another 0.1 due to lost speed (powder temperature ?).

 

[Jack Master]

I found myself shifting my zero 1/10th right, then left, then back right over a two or 3 week time. Since then I have gone to a "one shot zero". One shot per dot for 5 or 6 dots rather than a 3 or 5 shot group on one dot. This is a realistic feeling of what I and the rifle are capable of rather than letting the group size distract me. I have changed my zero a bit to center the shots better and now I know I could be 1/10th right and I'm okay with that, then next week might be 1/10th left. I can also track this and know right, left, up, down for that week to gather an over all average.
I have found my best, most consistent, zero has been during AM twilight before the sun is up, so it might be a lighting condition thing.

Story time:
Had a fella come to me after a local match and said he was data always 1 mil low from his prone positions and right on from barricades. I asked if he had a good zero and how he zeroed. He says "Modified prone from a concrete bench." We went to the zero board (full prone) and he couldn't shoot a group smaller than 3" vertical and they were all below the point of aim at 100yds. I asked him to unload the bipod and "free recoil" a couple shots. He shot a 1/2" 3 shot group in the center of the target. His AR platform was very sensitive to the bipod pressure and torque on the front hand guard. The torque made him shoot low when he was loading the bipod in prone. Since he zeroed from a concrete bench be could not load the bipod this made his positional shooting work because the handguard was not being stresses.
(Can't remember if it was actually high or low but for this story I stuck with low)

 

[nick338]

I think it's also important to know where the barrel in its lifecycle depending on what your zeroing for. If a student signs up for a class with a rifle that has 100 rds on it, depending how much shooting is done during the class the barrel may speed up and the original zero may not be valid any longer and effect longer shots.

Also, zeroing on clean barrel vs a barrel that has 20-30 rds on it.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

There are all kinds of questions

Do you zero in early morning or late evening,

I zero .1 left of center

its a weird thing, just as noted super simplistic but at the same time, too many get it wrong

So when is the right time to zero? I never know how to treat the zero process as it relates to wind... so here's what I do and you can curtique it as you see fit.

I zero on bench then in prone both @ 100yd. I generally don't do any other position for zero. I also tend to just average the two zeroes from bench and prone and let them meet in the middle. (I've never thought about the lefty vs righty thing and usually have to get it super close but not exactly where I want because of click value at 100yds(or maybe it's just me). I'm strongly considering the "one shot on one dot for 3 dots" vs group mean zero, since the group distract from my POA a lot and I think effects my ability to aim at what I want to aim at.

After the 100yd session and I settle on something, I then go to 300. (This is where my problem generally begins). I am just never "sure" at this point because I'm not sure how to handle the wind and how that effects my zero. It's rare that there is literally no wind and I may not "can shoot the difference ", but if I have to adjust zero by a click one way or the other, (and I almost always do), then how do I know if that's really my 300yd zero, or is it just the wind and if it came from the other direction my zero would then be off by .2 instead of .1. ???? Does that make sense? There's more to this whole process and wind vs clicks but there's only so much you can explain in type.

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

There are all kinds of questions

Do you zero in early morning or late evening,

I zero .1 left of center

its a weird thing, just as noted super simplistic but at the same time, too many get it wrong

Why?

Why do you think

there are several reasons I do it,

One is because I am right handed shooter and any mistakes I make will go right so a .1 left helps me a bit

it also gives me a defined edge if I need one, consider a 3/8” round circle, I can hold the right edge and know I will be inside it

I could not think of any reasons, which is why I asked. I am kind of new to all this, even new here on SnipersHide, and still back in 2018, episode 11, in getting caught up on your podcasts . . .

So I am driving home from work last night, and I get to episode 12 of the podcast, from February of 2018, when you are talking about cold bore shot, and then zeroing, and you cover this "one click to the left" and why.

 

[High Desert duck]

I zero from prone, of my atlas PSR and my game changer shmedium +1. the same as I shoot in competition. I considered it zeroed if it will impact within half of the group size of the load/rifle. (Usually .5 +/-)

For an initial zero (scope out of the rings) I try and go out early morning, and put up a 5 shot group, adjust, and verify with one shot. If it hits the 1/4” dot in the center of the target it’s good, if not then its 1 shot adjust until i get the 1/4 inch of center impact. I verify/confirm my zero at 200 yards on fresh painted steel.

I also use this at matches as well even if the scope has not been out of the rings, because I once tried the one shot verification process set me up for failure, the first shot was 3/4 inch high and i then spent 30+ rounds chasing the zero and had that fiasco in my head for the rest of the match.

 

[CK1.0]

I get kinda OCD about my zero being right (or as close/honest as I can get it).

Lately, I've been throwing up a couple of targets I'd originally made for seating depth testing... they have simple 1/4 MOA dots. Since it's so simple, sort of a "pass/fail" type of thing, I find it keeps me more honest. Sort of a "dot torture" but as a tool to help me confirm my zero instead of a drill.

I shoot at them from the bench, prone, tank trap, etc, and find they tell me if something is up pretty quickly.

What's funny is I kind of suck at shooting groups and don't practice them nearly enough... but I've had some of these targets end up where if I stacked 5 of them on top of one another, they'd be some of the best groups I've ever shot!

(5 shots, got the last one, the others were close enough to know it was probably just me):

 

[gebhardt02]

My process lately.
1. Prone Zero at 100 yds. 5 round group. Get it as close as possible to POA.
2. Prone at 200 yds, zero wind condition, refine to match ballistic data at 200 yds. For instance, I've found that sometimes my 200 yd come-up is slightly off. Ballistic data says I should need 0.4 Mil, but I actually used 0.3 Mil. On my scope, I'd adjust my turret to read 0.4 Mil to match the ballistic program. Ballistic program is matched exactly with FPS, BC (as close as I know it to be anyway), and actual environmental conditions that day. I'm just making sure my turret, actual impact, and ballistic data are agreeing at 200 as I can still hold a very precise group/POI. Also, I ensure my wind is truly zeroed on the scope and impact location. This is done on paper at 200.
3. Verify everything lines up at distance when able. Small adjustments to FPS or BC may be needed but I'm making those adjustments now at around 1200 with multiple rounds fired.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I shoot mostly PRS so I am not too anal about zero. One thing I have learned is shooting a bunch of bullet holes overtop an aiming point will give you bad feedback and you will start aiming at the holes.

I like to shoot squares, Once I get my zero I will shoot each corner of the square once. This confirms my POI/POA.

I do always confirm zero before a match. Its just good practice, especially if you had to tear down the gun or just did a good cleaning. There are too many things that can go wrong, so its good to always ensure you are back to your baseline.

 

[nick338]

So when is the right time to zero? I never know how to treat the zero process as it relates to wind... so here's what I do and you can curtique it as you see fit.

I zero on bench then in prone both @ 100yd. I generally don't do any other position for zero. I also tend to just average the two zeroes from bench and prone and let them meet in the middle. (I've never thought about the lefty vs righty thing and usually have to get it super close but not exactly where I want because of click value at 100yds(or maybe it's just me). I'm strongly considering the "one shot on one dot for 3 dots" vs group mean zero, since the group distract from my POA a lot and I think effects my ability to aim at what I want to aim at.

After the 100yd session and I settle on something, I then go to 300. (This is where my problem generally begins). I am just never "sure" at this point because I'm not sure how to handle the wind and how that effects my zero. It's rare that there is literally no wind and I may not "can shoot the difference ", but if I have to adjust zero by a click one way or the other, (and I almost always do), then how do I know if that's really my 300yd zero, or is it just the wind and if it came from the other direction my zero would then be off by .2 instead of .1. ???? Does that make sense? There's more to this whole process and wind vs clicks but there's only so much you can explain in type.

Do you have to adjust your zero from bench to prone? Are you using a 300 yard zero for a specific application, just curious why you would use that as has a greater propensity to introduce errors during zeroing, the wind being one of them.

 

[Baron23]

Ah, sometimes it seems like I must be doing it like this! haha

Actually, I have nothing particularly insightful about zeroing. I pull the bolt and bore sight it at 50 yards, go to 100 and shoot, adjust scope zero from the results. I do see a small variation in zero from bench to prone...small.

Being 70 with a bad lumbar, I do shoot from a bench quite often. But, for example, when I go to PA for the Frank/Marc show, I'll check zero from prone and adjust.

That's all got.

 

[RTH1800]

Zeroing. Simple on the surface. Less so the deeper you look.

A true no wind zero is a thing to be treasured. It’s not arrived at quickly. It is the foundation of all your DOPE. Once obtained I think very carefully before changing anything.

Some things I’ve utilized including a two way range. (In what seems no wind conditions I shoot
And zero one direction then reverse and shoot the other direction)

Document any cold bore shot shift.

Late night shooting. I illuminate targets and shoot in calm, nighttime conditions.

Document positional POI changes, any changes made to zero on scope, conditions etc.

Basically, I “average it in” and fine tune over time.
Frank said something about edge control. That is what I do but had not used the term.

Some rifles do not require super refined zero. Others a great deal of it.

The two I find most critical are my Squirrel rifle and my crow rifle. One due to small targets to 200 yards the other due to ranges I attempt shots. A crow at 500 meters is getting small.

What I’m working toward is that last 1/2 bullet width in windage.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Zeroing. Simple on the surface. Less so the deeper you look.

A true no wind zero is a thing to be treasured. It’s not arrived at quickly. Once obtained I think very carefully before changing anything.

Some things I’ve utilized including a two way range. (In what seems no wind conditions I shoot
And zero one direction then reverse and shoot the other direction)

Document any cold bore shot shift.

Late night shooting. I illuminate targets and shoot in calm, nighttime conditions.

Document positional POI changes, any changes made to zero on scope, conditions etc.

Basically, I “average it in” and fine tune over time.
Frank said something about edge control. That is what I do but had not used the term.

Some rifles do not require super refined zero. Others a great deal of it.

The two I find most critical are my Squirrel rifle and my crow rifle. One due to small targets to 200 yards the other due to ranges I attempt shots. A crow at 500 meters is getting small.

What I’m working toward is that last 1/2 bullet width in windage.

How much wind are you zero’ing that affects a bullet moving 2700fps?? Unless it’s Rimfire.

 

[RTH1800]

It’s rimfire on the squirrel rifle and the crow rifle is .204 Ruger caliber.

 

[todd]

What are some of the techniques you use to zero ?
I shoot five shots prone first thing in the day just to warm the gun up, then I'll shoot a five shot group and adjust my zero based on how the gun is shooting that day. If it's a match, I'll shoot about ten first to really warm the gun (and me) up before trying to set the zero.

How would you refine your zero ?
My zero usually stays within a tenth or so and doesn't drift much. I suspect even that tenth could just be how I'm addressing the rifle.

Do you have a zero shift from position and do you consider putting that into your zero ?
Yes I do have a zero shift in positional. I didn't realize I did until I did my first Kraft Drill. That was VERY eye opening. I started doing more work on positional shooting, including shoulder connection, and trigger press, trying to see if I can isolate what is causing it and how to correct it. Kneeling I seem to throw shots between .3-.5 right, in a tight group. Standing and seated groups are usually .1-.2 right. After this last week's Kraft Drill (attached, 3 shots per position: standing, kneeling, seated, prone), I am definitely considering altering my zero to help center my positional groups for matches, .1-.2 left and maybe .1 up. What are your thoughts?

 

[morganlamprecht]

something to keep in mind...

the condition of the zero range terrain/lighting (sun positions/cloud cover) can have a pretty drastic impact on "zero"

ive seen terrain features of a zero line affect zeros up to .2-.3mil...a curved hump between the shooter and target with varying mirage can wreck things quick...100 yds prone off flat dirt on a hot, humid day, good luck...lost count how many times ive seen people move zero's for that, only to have to move it back when they start shooting other targets and their dope is way off

if you as a shooter, have zero'd and confirmed dope...then move to a zero line with any optical shift effects present, and you adjust your zero for that shift...your confirmed dope will absolutely be off once you move from that zero line to other firing lanes that dont share the same condition

you also have to confirm your rifle will actually hold zero...whack the barrel on something hard, drop it on the butt stock...high end components just bolted together can have movement in them that will cause a zero to drift and youll be forever chasing your tail

 

[kthomas]

something to keep in mind...

the condition of the zero range terrain/lighting (sun positions/cloud cover) can have a pretty drastic impact on "zero"

ive seen terrain features of a zero line affect zeros up to .2-.3mil...a curved hump between the shooter and target with varying mirage can wreck things quick...100 yds prone off flat dirt on a hot, humid day, good luck...lost count how many times ive seen people move zero's for that, only to have to move it back when they start shooting other targets and their dope is way off

if you as a shooter, have zero'd and confirmed dope...then move to a zero line with any optical shift effects present, and you adjust your zero for that shift...your confirmed dope will absolutely be off once you move from that zero line to other firing lanes that dont share the same condition

you also have to confirm your rifle will actually hold zero...whack the barrel on something hard, drop it on the butt stock...high end components just bolted together can have movement in them that will cause a zero to drift and youll be forever chasing your tail

This is a good point, and something I've seen myself.

Your zero will change depending on if the sun is facing towards the shooter, behind the shooter facing the target, or off to either side of the target.

The lighting conditions can absolutely effect your zero, something I've kind of forgotten about until you brought it up.

"Sun shift" as it was called in a training I did.

 

[MakeSawdust]

Morgan made most of the good points. Watch mirage and lighting. If you can get zeroed in a sort of light neutral condition with no mirage I see a typical .1 mil or so both directions due to lighting extremes. If the zero is obtained in extreme light conditions and you go to the other extreme it is common to see a .2 mill shift and occasionally maybe a .3 mil shift. Mirage can do all sorts of screwy things depending on where it is between shooter and target and what is causing it.

If you have a place to zero where you aren't trying to look through all the mirage coming off the ground it helps. Shooting over a ravine or ditch seems to help in dealing with mirage. Often going from prone to mod prone off a bench or to the back of a pickup will shrink groups if mirage is bad close to the ground.

I took Frank's advice to zero .1 left and it has helped some. Lighting has screwed me a few times, so I will now accept anything that is dead on to .1 left but not to the right at all.

Also, you can sometimes pick up an error by checking dope on fresh paint. If I shoot a group that is centered at 100 yards and then check 400, 600, 800 and 1000 and they are all .1 high then I'm going to drop my zero a click. I do not make windage adjustments to my zero based on any distance except 100 yds (centerfire) and 25 yds (rimfire)

I also check stuff from positional, but normally it is less than a click of variation.

Typically I zero with a bipod and rear bag. I build a position and shoot, then break it and stand up. I rebuild the position and shoot again for 5 shots.

Also, this might be obvious to most, but the tighter the gun shoots, the more you can refine the zero. It's difficult to see when the zero is off a click shooting a 1moa or worse gun. You can easily see a half a click on a gun that will shoot in the .2s and sometimes .3s.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Do you have to adjust your zero from bench to prone? Are you using a 300 yard zero for a specific application, just curious why you would use that as has a greater propensity to introduce errors during zeroing, the wind being one of them.

I don't know why I didn't see this....???

There is usually a very small difference in my zero from bench and prone at 100yds. I normally "average" the two groups mean poi. So if the two groups are .5 moa apart from each other, and that repeats (which it usually does) then I will adjust the zero to go halfway toward the poi in prone, coming from the poi in bench. (Aka - split the difference)

I use 300 only after my 100 yd zero. I use it to adjust any data in my kestrel to all match up as well as to see the group size is the same moa as it was at 100 yds mainly.

 

[BLEE]

Being a novice shooter, who always zeroed at 100 yards and best guessed the rest, this thread gives me a whopper of a headache. That's my internal queue to pay attention and learn something. Thanks for this fascinating thread and all the training videos and podcasts.

 

[WIVigilance]

I always want to zero at 100 yards because metric well screw that, we're Americans.

But I do get confused sometimes with the zero stop. I seen some precision shooters set their zero stop below their 100 yard zero. They tell me that they need to be able to dial 10 -90 yards.

I like the theory but in real life shooting with my attention span and memory it seems I might fuck it up. So I have resolved that if for some reason I had to hit a golf ball under 100 I would use Kentucky windage to hold under.

I'm just saying zero stop settings and short shots should be part of the discussion, or at least part of the solution.

I’ve also seen people say they like the zero stop with a couple negatives clicks in case of an ammo change that is slower (I’m just repeating what I heard someone else discuss, I have not tried it or even know if it’s a Legitimate thing, I rarely change ammo since I’m just shooting for myself)

 

[bax]

I always zero at 100 yards for everything. I make range cards for every weapon/ammo combination. I have all weapons in Applied Ballistics.

However you define zero and achieve it, sometimes you fire a shot and it goes astray. In order to check, you shoot a target at 100 and zero is not confirmed. Here are the causes I have experienced, no order:

• bad ammo - some hot or cold - these days this is rare, try harder
• bolts holding the receiver into the stock torque is wrong - I use 70 ft/lbs
• barrel torque not same as original zero - for bolt guns I use 30 ft/lbs
• recoil lug placed incorrectly in bedding - usually a mistake assembling barrel to action
• crud inside the bolt - disassemble bolt, blow out with air or use a brush
• crud / dirt on the recoil lugs - clean the bolt lugs and receiver lugs
• forgot to reset the scope to zero - windage or elevation still dialed in.
• scope base not tight - I bed my scope base to the receiver, then torque to 15-20 in/lbs
• scope not tight in the rings - use loktite, 15-20 in/lbs
• both rings not tight against their respective picatinny base ribs - pull and reinstall scope
• scope broke - several variations of this - If you can hear things moving inside the scope, that is bad. If you can't see the reticle, that is bad. If it won't hold zero, that is bad. To check try replacing with a different scope.
• crud in the barrel channel - pull the barreled action and clean the channel.
• dinged up crown - recrown
• dirty bore or barrel shot out - gently clean or make a new barrel
• shooter NPA incorrect - learn how to detect Natural Point of Aim and practice
• poor recoil management
• incorrect eye positioning - you can see black around the image and it isn't even

There are probably a lot more but that is a good start.

By the way, in order to check zero on steel, in your reticle pick a 1 mil line that is high or low - for example pick the line that is 1 mil high. There is an intersection of that 1 mil high line and the vertical reticle line. Using that intersection, aim at one of the bolts on the steel target and take your shot. To check, line up again and see if the shiny spot is behind the center of your crosshairs. Since you are aiming at the bolt with the 1 mil high line, the rifle is aiming 1 mil below the bolt (3.6 inches) so there is no harm to the target. If there are no bolts, use the top or bottom edge or another hit on the target.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

First assumption. All precision rifles i own are sighted in at 100 yards and velocity is known and stable and reliable settings are established to 1000 yards.

I’m strange and I know it. When I take precision style rifles to the range. first thing after practicing dry fire is to check the wind. Then, dial the scope for and shoot 300 yards. If these rounds are nicely centered I dial and move to four and five hundred yards. If these are centered, I am good to go. Shooting from a bench or mod prone, I am good to 800 in most conditions, shooting from a barricade, ok to 400 - 600 yards depending on target and conditions.

With my hunting rifle, I sight it in at 200 yards. Why 200? The max I feel comfortable shooting game at my age in hunting conditions is 250 yards. So, a 200 yard zero will safely cover my shots with the .25-06 i normally use. If you can reliably make a killing shot on deer sized game at longer distances, that’s great, but I know my limitations.

 

[Slides]

I currently zero at 61 yards and it will probably stay that way unless I have a very specific need. This allows me to shoot from inside my garage through some tyres to target towards a hill on my property, there is a gully across which I will eventually mount a bis500 plate which will be at about 150 yards. With known velocity and scope to bore I have shot out to 900 yards, my rifles fit in the "sporter/hunting" class here shooting along side F class guys on electronic targets. I have actually shot a cold bore pin and centre on a couple of occasions between 500 and 900 yards straight off the short zero just using online ballistic calculators, considering I don't believe I'm consistent enough to load develop for group size and will only be trying for consistency I'm happy with that. I think that range is also pretty decent for point and shoot hunting guns at it puts you a touch high 100-150 and minimises any wind effects.

 

[OkieMike]

But that is just one part of the check because, RINGS, RINGS are not all created equal.

I learned this lesson the hard way a little while back.

Bad rings will make the best scope unusable. Good rings will make a low end scope tolerable.

Buy the best quality rings you can.

As for zero... I'm just going to shut up and pay attention.

Mike

 

[whatsupdoc]

I zero at 100, if I cannot get the group precisely centered with the turrets I will bias it to the left.
Then I go to 200 and shoot a couple of groups and see where they go, my 200 yard POI will determine where
my zero is set to.

 

[Awesymoto]

I’ll zero at 100 yards prone and bagged in the rear, on a calm cool morning. If it’s windy I’ll put 0/0 in my kestrel offset and try to zero to the reverse of whatever the kestrel says. Example if kestrel says 0.06U 0.08L due to a left crosswind I’ll try and get my groups to hit 0.06 down and 0.08 right to have a theoretical zero in no wind. I’ll accept vertical deviations within 0.1 mills but try and get it centered laterally. After that I reset my zero stop and turrets and then shoot a group. Wherever the group lands as long as it’s within 0.1/0.1 I’ll just put the group center into my kestrel ZH/ZO. Conditions pending I’ll verify at 600-800. The place I go I have my 100 yard zero target and steel behind it so I can immediately check zero, dial some drop and fire at steel. If there is no major discrepancies from 100 to 800 I’ll then start doing other positional stuff. If my gun is already “zeroed” to a load I verify at 100, then shoot to 600/800 yards. I use those distances because if the drop matches at 800 and my zero is on everything in between lines up nicely. I forgot to add. I used to chronograph routinely. If I have a new load I chrono about 5 rounds in, my barrel POA/POA settles within 1-2 rounds after cleaning. I have been shooting the same exact load for my past two 300PRC Barrels so the only diff is seating depth. It gave me a year long track of temps and stability with H1000 which means I chronograph a bit less with that rifle. I used to check velocities after a session of 50-60 rounds and usually I see an increase in the order of 10-20fps after

 

[Awesymoto]

Best thing ever for me is ballistic x app for putting the zero corrections into ZH/ZO in a kestrel*.

 

[Carl1000]

What I am finding out being new to precision rifle is, your zero settings aren't static 100% of the time. I guess I had this unrealistic expectation that once I zeroed my rifle, for the most part, it's zeroed and good to go and I wouldn't have to change it. But I have learnt by chasing my zero like crazy, that sometimes you just need to reset your zero. Obviously making sure that you don't have equipment problems. I was getting frustrated when my zero was perfect on one range trip, then three days later I come back and everything is shooting 1 MOA to the left. So I would readjust. The next time I came out, it would be some vertical POI shifts. I guess this happens to everybody it seems. And sometimes I shoot out to 200 yards to recheck my zero.