I need help.... Cartridge Selection.

[manscout]

My favorite thing about the hide is all the advice, so here I am asking for some.

I've been looking into doing up a gun for 2000+ yds. I imagine some are going to cringe when they see what i'm asking for help with, but here it goes. I'm trying to find the cartridge with the best "value". That is to say, something that is worth having a rifle chambered in that is efficient and cost effective to reload with very minimal reloading equipment (pretty much a just a press and die...) "has decent barrel life (oh i know i know..)" and is overall fun. and yes, i know, compromising is bad and buy once cry once.. na, stepping stones.

I'm familiar the notion that cartridges have misunderstood limits, i.e. shooting really far with a 223 or 308.. but i have those things and was looking for the "next step." My pee brain had something like a 7mm, 300 or maybe a short action magnum (i have a savage short action that is begging to be rebarreled). Also, when comparing things like the 6.5 saum / gap 4s or whatever it's going by now to the likes of the 7mm mag or 300 win mag or maybe even the 7mm-300 practical sheebang, is it worth doing a gun from the ground up rather than just rebarrelling the gun i have now in a saum? I've looked at the ballistics on paper for all the mentioned cartridges but that doesn't take into account the "value" and equipment aspect. I understand that saum brass is a pain in the whazoo to make without much equipment. I know that hornady has "factory" brass for it but i've only seen bad things about it. Copper creek is offering saum brass now as well.

ps. as yall can most probably tell, i'm cheap. yes. too cheap to be taken seriously by most, but i don't believe i have to spend $8000+ on a rig to shoot. i have always looked for the best value rather than the best option for things not life or death. SOOOOO... to summarize the question, what is the best dollar for dollar value given my situation?

Ok. That's about it i think. Thanks for reading this mess and a gracious, heart-felt gesture to any who reply.

 

[Dan Warner]

I'm going to take advantage of being the first to respond to this and take a slightly different approach to what most will offer. Most will follow this by saying that a 300 Norma, 338 Lapua, or even quite possibly a Chey Tac is the way to go. While those are valid choices and there are practical ways to build them on the conservative budget, they will be rather costly to load and shoot regularly.
I offer that because of the advancements in bullets, 2000 yards is now quite feasible with smaller cartridges. No doubt that some of the money saved on the build will be eaten up with more expensive projectiles, but you would certainly be using less powder every time you pull the trigger. That said, the 284 Winchester and the 300 Win Mag for starters are both quite capable of reaching the 2000yard mark with the Flat Line bullets. I might even go so far as to say that the 6.5 Creedmoor would get there with our new 6.5 bullet (coming very soon), but that may be a bit of a stretch. The ranges of the first three cartridges I mentioned have been extended too; well beyond 2000yards, but you listed 2000 as your threshold. Regardless, with the advances in bullet technology, practical limits of supersonic flight are being extended every day. We've watched right here on the Hide where you can now shoot your short barreled mag fed 308 to 1500 yards; unheard of EVER before the 160g Flat Line. The same extensions are true with all of our bullets, so you now have a new school of thought to entertain. I'm sure there will be nay sayers to what I have said so I will get my popcorn ready for the show.

 

[steve123]

I shot my 6.5 Saum at 1 mile once, 140 hybrids at 3175 fps, and it did much better than I thought it would. The wind was down that day though. In your shoes I'd lean towards a long action. If you stay with short action a 300 Saum with Dan's 198's would do well I bet. Doubt you could feed from mag so single feeding???

With a 300 RUM I could see 3200 fps with that same 198 Flatline. The nice thing about 30's compared to 338's is less recoil which I really like with my 30-375R.

 

[Rthur]

In the discussion of 2k yards as a goal I believed that expensive reloading is a given.
Dan makes valid points concerning added range with more common cartridges.
My opinion is high bc choices, flatline ect, plus high horsepower cartridges will be more consistent in elr success at any and all DA.
We enjoy many options that can achieve so much more than even 5 years ago.
My personal choice is the 300 norma, in the build process as we speak.
While not the only option it has met my version of potential "reach".

R

 

[SIDS01]

Much beyond a class of cartridges that goes from the 7 short mags through the 338 Lapua, all shooting heavy for caliber state of the art jacketed bullets, I haven't seen the added ballistic performance from the Cheytacs and 50BMG turned into hits at 2000 yard URSA matches. I've won 2 of them with a 300wm shooting 230 hybrids. The course record is held by a 7wsm shooting 180 bergers. If you look closely at the results for other ELR matches, including Franks, you'll often see similar things. The bigger guns make the early lessons more expensive and just aren't needed.

Within that class of cartridges, the performance gain the 198 Flatlines give the 300wm is shocking. A lot of required elevation just goes away.

My suggestion for a low buck starter gun for a guy that reloads would be a used magazine fed Savage 338 that has a stock you can tolerate. Rebarrel it in 300 Norma with as long a 1:8 twist barrel as you can find. The king of cheap ELR scopes is the Gen 1 Razor in my mind. You should be able to get them new for under $1500. More travel than anything else I've seen and all the features you need including a true Christmas tree reticle. Start with a 40 moa mount, I have 60s on my guns.

If you go with that short action Savage, I'd go with short mag in some sort of 7, but with the current crop of 6.5 bullets you'll be able to make that work too. If you go with the 7, don't try to keep your maximum performance loads in the magazine. While I have hits with my 6xc on 2K targets, I'd get off the 308 case head for this.

I'm shooting a mix of R700 and Savage actions. I've had good luck with the XLR chassis. I'm probably a poster child for the perils of ignoring the buy and cry once mantra, but I don't have to sell one to try something else. I also have guns to shoot when the current favorite needs a fresh barrel.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

 

[URSA Facilitator]

Noting that you already have a Savage SA, I'd suggest the 300 WSM.

 

[manscout]

Thank you everyone for the thoughts. I was trying to make the decision based on my own, ignorant understanding of this new world. some general replies:

i understand reloading costs are going to be up there with this goal. what i'm trying to avoid is a 20 step process of creating specialty brass out of expensive brass with an expensive process. For instance, 300 wm is significantly easier to reload and less expensive than the saum i mentioned or some of the more preferred elr cartridges.

I have held off getting into this because of the traditional thought that something bigger than a .338 is needed for 2k+. I decided to dive in because of all the awesome new bullets redefining cartridge limitations.

I've considered going the norma route before and the way i guessed i would do it is by rebarreling a savage 338. From my understanding the 300 norma can be successfully magazine fed in a regular long action with a .750 bolt face.

I have experience shooting long range and have a couple "high value" (note: i did not say high cost... ) guns and some good glass.

ADDITIONAL QUESTION: Based on the information given in the awesome responses above, it seems as though the 7 mag and 300 win would both be alright with new bullets. I have seen a lot about the 7 wsm as well while doing some homework elsewhere and was pleased to see it mentioned here as well. The wsm would also be a real money saver considering whether it may be ideal or not to rebarrel my savage short action as i've seen a bit about issues and guys just using long actions instead. With that said. I WILL eventually go into the 338/norma/edge or whatever it may be route. Now is not that time. Recently EAS'd and in college trying to become a real boy, my budget is tight. that's where me differing the judgement of buy once cry once comes in. eventually i will, but for now i need the best for the least. Seems like the preferred options would be 7 wsm, 7mm mag, or 300 win mag or perchaps 7-300. So, in yalls opinion, if you could have one of the fore-mentioned (perhaps something else not considered) to "get you by" for a few years while trying to learn this new realm, what would it be? thanks once again!

 

[AIAW]

1-mile plus distances and inexpensive simply to do not belong in the same sentence unfortunately, but doesn't necessarily mean that it's not impossible. It comes down to your acceptable hit percentage. You can't factor in cost really - it's going to cost what it's going to cost to meet your goals.

I think that you'd first want to define what you are after. Do you want to lob rounds at 2000 yards supersonic while they still have a predictable flight, or trust stability in the transonic/subsonic boundary? My 260 with 140g ELD-M's will "make it" to 1760 yards no problem - although not in a predictable fashion that I would be content with. 338LM makes it there very predictably. My 375CT makes it there with little effort like it was an 800 yard target. Look at the BC differences between all of these different caliber bullets and there is a large piece of the puzzle.

A concept from Applied Ballistics on the "WEZ" strategy: http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/...alisticWEZ.pdf

Ballistics aside, to be able to reach these distances ideally you would want:

A) Clear, high-resolution, high-magnification optics.
B) Ample erector travel to dial these distances.
C) Acceptable reloading skills/equipment - you won't be doing this with factory ammunition with any confidence.
D) Patience, and the ability to use deductive logic to perform tuning of the entire platform, including ammunition.
E) The ability to know that no matter how much money you spend or how tuned your system is, it's all for naught if the shooter doesn't do his/her part.
F) Finally, the launcher itself, the rifle.

Again, not that you can't do this with an off-the-shelf R700 chambered in 300WM from Cabella's - it's just not probable.

I see it all the time (even at the private range that I attend). Guys go out and buy AXMC's, TRG-42's, high-end custom rigs, etc. thinking that it's going to shoot itself. Meanwhile, back in reality they are beating the living shit out of themselves at $5 a pop, using retail ammunition and missing 700 yard - 2 MOA steel because their fundamentals are off-the-scale wrong. Nothing worse than watching someone do the "over-watch target search" on full-power after the recoil knocked the rifle around so bad that they aren't even on the same target lane.

Spotting equipment should also be another topic here but that is rather self-explanatory. You can either self-spot, or a partner can help if he has the right spotting equipment. Mirage will be an issue here during hotter days no matter what equipment is in play - top-end or absolute dirt cheap, mirage wins. A target camera would be a solid investment to get around this.

Everyone above is absolutely correct in everything they have covered. It's all about the acceptable level of accuracy/precision at whatever distance you happen to be targeting. Just keep in mind that there is a difference between hitting your target occasionally and hitting it on demand. There is no escaping physics in any fashion.

 

[manscout]

1-mile plus distances and inexpensive simply to do not belong in the same sentence unfortunately, but doesn't necessarily mean that it's not impossible. It comes down to your acceptable hit percentage. You can't factor in cost really - it's going to cost what it's going to cost to meet your goals.

Everyone above is absolutely correct in everything they have covered. It's all about the acceptable level of accuracy/precision at whatever distance you happen to be targeting. There is no escaping physics though.

Thanks for all that. I understand what you're saying. I am not trying to find some magic loophole and be able to magically shoot past 2000 yds for "cheap" as i put it. I'm trying to learn ELR via the most economic means. I know i pretty much just reworded what i'm saying i'm not trying to do... I'll explain. I have seen and shot with many guys who learned how to shoot elr with less than ideal setups such as Running a savage long action rebarreled, in a chassis with a proper scope and the minimums for reloading. The main thing i'm trying to discover is which of the cartridges support the cheap approach i'm taking. 300 wm, 7mm mag both have relatively inexpensive factory brass and can be reloaded for less than some other rounds. i'm not too concerned that they are belted. so those seem like logical choices. all i need are the basics. i have a great spotting scope and glass on my rifles that i will use. i am also quite curious about the next gen bushnell xrs. i may get either that, use a current scope or go with a nf.

 

[Raptor005]

If be interested to see how the Warner bullets work out.
​​​

 

[Dan Warner]

"Seems like the preferred options would be 7 wsm, 7mm mag, or 300 win mag or perchaps 7-300. So, in yalls opinion, if you could have one of the fore-mentioned (perhaps something else not considered) to "get you by" for a few years while trying to learn this new realm, what would it be? thanks once again!"

The 7/300 is going to take the most work with regard to brass prep. The 7wsm or the 300 Win Mag will be the easiest to load for component / case prep wise. The WSM is easy to load for, but there is still a bit of brass prep required for most cases; the necks are usually quite thick and need to be turned. I've heard that he 7mm Rem Mag can be finicky, but I have no first hand experience there. I think that comes from less than ideal chamber setups though. Regardless, I think I'd stick with the 300 Win Mag if I were in your shoes.

 

[manscout]

The 7/300 is going to take the most work with regard to brass prep. The 7wsm or the 300 Win Mag will be the easiest to load for component / case prep wise. The WSM is easy to load for, but there is still a bit of brass prep required for most cases; the necks are usually quite thick and need to be turned. I've heard that he 7mm Rem Mag can be finicky, but I have no first hand experience there. I think that comes from less than ideal chamber setups though. Regardless, I think I'd stick with the 300 Win Mag if I were in your shoes.

Thank you very much Mr Warner. I will go with your advice and am looking forward to using some of your bullets!

 

[URSA Facilitator]

OP - please mote:

1. The 300 WinMag is a long action cartridge - see the pic on this page to do a visual comparison to the 300 WSM - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.300_W...r_Short_Magnum
2. The 7mm Rem Mag's nominal cartridge OAL is 3.29, the 300 WSM's is 2.86 Which will fit in your Savage mag?
3. The 300 Norma Magnum has a 338 LM bolt face (.589). [.750 is the bolt diameter of an oversize Rem700 bolt, not a bolt face dimension.]
4. If you intend to shoot 2000+ regularly, that pretty much assumes you have a place to shoot regularly. Do you? If so, what is the max distance available?
5. As another poster noted, stepping up to 338 LM class gives you coverage to 2000 and change. If you plan on going beyond 2000, you will need a 338 LM Improved or larger class cartridge - well outside the SA (short action) Savage realm. If you go CT (CheyTac) class you need a larger press and everything is substantially more expensive.
6. If you go with a long action you are ALSO now into a new stock (long vs short action stock).
7. If you are intending to multi-use this rifle, consider what each disciplines requires and consider how much of your time you are going to spend shooting each discipline. Obviously (?) the disciplines that get the most use will dictate the cartridge you choose. Be realistic NOW or suffer later. Once the money is spent its spent. Reselling your mistakes will not (normally) be at the price you paid.
8. (added) BTW, if you are considering using your current Savage action, which cartridge is that rifle chambered for? I ask because their short actions support three cartridge sizes, from .223 Rem thru magnum. If not already a magnum bolt face (approx. .532), then you would need to ALSO either replace the bolt or parts of it.

Bottom line, step back, take a deep breath, and think how this is all going to come together. And I suggest you start a spreadsheet to tally you the costs.

 

[TripleBull]

Thank you very much Mr Warner. I will go with your advice and am looking forward to using some of your bullets!

Well... The Flatlines kill the low cost option, but I'm not criticizing that approach. I expect ELR to be expensive. You can always use shorter distances and inexpensive ammo to work on your technique, then go ELR when you have a box full of the expensive stuff loaded up. That's what I do and it helps me to value those ELR days and get my head focused.

I also would not expect to hand load 300WM with the minimal gear mentioned in the OP ("pretty much a just a press and die..."). I think you'll have to add a trimmer to that and I'd also want to anneal, tumble, etc. I assume you have the tools to understand your chamber dimensions relative to your brass, jump to lands, etc.?

 

[schofield]

Kinda new to the shooting game but I really like the 300 win mag. It is very versatile. It can do what your asking; though you would still be better off going with the norma or lapua to shoot as far as you are trying.

 

[surgeon260]

With as hot as many people on this forum are running their 300WMs with high-BC bullets, I don't think the step up to the 300 Norma is worth all the expense if you are just trying to learn the ropes. The Norma case means very expensive brass (that doesn't last all that long in my experience), more powder, shorter barrel life, Lapua bolt face, harder to find reloading equipment, etc. All that for about 100fps.

 

[bogeybrown]

I'd just like to thank manscout and all the great respondents for this thread. Very few of the "which rifle/scope/caliber....." threads tend to lead anywhere new, but his approach to this problem and the considerations laid out are IMHO a very valuable exercise.
I have absolutely no interest in stepping into a 338lm, which is sort of the auto-pilot cartridge for guys going longer. Exploring the feasibility of doing 2k on a short-action, without spending 2hrs reloading for every 5mins on the range has been hugely informative for me. I'm at the point where barring the purchase of an AI, I pretty much own all the precision bolt guns I'm going to own. Being able to look ahead at what SA chambering I may go to next has been super helpful.

 

[manscout]

OP - please mote:


Bottom line, step back, take a deep breath, and think how this is all going to come together. And I suggest you start a spreadsheet to tally you the costs.

I understand all the things you mentioned. I think perhaps i was not clear enough. I mentioned the short mags because i have a savage short action just lying around. if there was a good option for short action that would be cheaper than doing a new rifle. i am not new to shooting but have a lot to learn about elr which is why i'm looking for advice in this neck of the woods. i appreciate your very detailed answers and respect the wisdom shown. However, i have learned myself what you speak of as far as taking a step back. i am fortunate to be living in a nice spot of actual free American country so range is unlimited. the entire purpose of inquiring about these "regular" magnums is to avoid the ludicrous price associated with the namesake of anything norma or lapua. i know for a fact that you don't need those names stamped on your brass to shoot 2000+ and am just wondering what the most cost effective cartridge would be to stretch out there. thanks

 

[manscout]

Well... The Flatlines kill the low cost option, but I'm not criticizing that approach. I expect ELR to be expensive. You can always use shorter distances and inexpensive ammo to work on your technique, then go ELR when you have a box full of the expensive stuff loaded up. That's what I do and it helps me to value those ELR days and get my head focused.

I also would not expect to hand load 300WM with the minimal gear mentioned in the OP ("pretty much a just a press and die..."). I think you'll have to add a trimmer to that and I'd also want to anneal, tumble, etc. I assume you have the tools to understand your chamber dimensions relative to your brass, jump to lands, etc.?

exactly. this is a concept i very much am a fan of.

 

[manscout]

I'd just like to thank manscout and all the great respondents for this thread. Very few of the "which rifle/scope/caliber....." threads tend to lead anywhere new, but his approach to this problem and the considerations laid out are IMHO a very valuable exercise.
I have absolutely no interest in stepping into a 338lm, which is sort of the auto-pilot cartridge for guys going longer. Exploring the feasibility of doing 2k on a short-action, without spending 2hrs reloading for every 5mins on the range has been hugely informative for me. I'm at the point where barring the purchase of an AI, I pretty much own all the precision bolt guns I'm going to own. Being able to look ahead at what SA chambering I may go to next has been super helpful.

It's great someone else has a similar view. if you come across anything else worth noting please share! so far the comments in this post have been excellent.

 

[URSA Facilitator]

I understand all the things you mentioned. I think perhaps i was not clear enough. I mentioned the short mags because i have a savage short action just lying around. if there was a good option for short action that would be cheaper than doing a new rifle. i am not new to shooting but have a lot to learn about elr which is why i'm looking for advice in this neck of the woods. i appreciate your very detailed answers and respect the wisdom shown. However, i have learned myself what you speak of as far as taking a step back. i am fortunate to be living in a nice spot of actual free American country so range is unlimited. the entire purpose of inquiring about these "regular" magnums is to avoid the ludicrous price associated with the namesake of anything norma or lapua. i know for a fact that you don't need those names stamped on your brass to shoot 2000+ and am just wondering what the most cost effective cartridge would be to stretch out there. thanks

8. (added) BTW, if you are considering using your current Savage action, which cartridge is that rifle chambered for? I ask because their short actions support three cartridge sizes, from .223 Rem thru magnum. If not already a magnum bolt face (approx. .532), then you would need to ALSO either replace the bolt or parts of it.

 

[VaRandy]

I didn't take the time to read all the responses ...but...since you said you needed to shoot at 2000 which I presume is an arbitrary distance, I read you post, Re:
" cost effective to reload with very minimal reloading equipment (pretty much a just a press and die" you are probably already in trouble with your plan. Cost Effective is not a term that can be associated with 2k shooting unless there is a barn on the other end. Minimal reloading (press and die) leaves a lot of necessary products missing if you reload at all. There s a lot of difference in a weapon that can hit a pie plate, outhouse, and barn at 2k and the care and feeding and the MONEY are DIRECTLY affected by your target size. If you want to hit at 2k with minimal cost and preparation, you can do it with a standard .260 and a 140 grain Hybrid. he bullets are still stable past transonic and leave neat little round holes. People shooting eat 2K to 2.5 miles don't have a lot of other interests and do serious work to continue to minimize their groups. It would take another whole paper on those things you need to buy and use to play in this game.

 

[manscout]

I didn't take the time to read all the responses ...but...since you said you needed to shoot at 2000 which I presume is an arbitrary distance, I read you post, Re:
" cost effective to reload with very minimal reloading equipment (pretty much a just a press and die" you are probably already in trouble with your plan. Cost Effective is not a term that can be associated with 2k shooting unless there is a barn on the other end. Minimal reloading (press and die) leaves a lot of necessary products missing if you reload at all. There s a lot of difference in a weapon that can hit a pie plate, outhouse, and barn at 2k and the care and feeding and the MONEY are DIRECTLY affected by your target size. If you want to hit at 2k with minimal cost and preparation, you can do it with a standard .260 and a 140 grain Hybrid. he bullets are still stable past transonic and leave neat little round holes. People shooting eat 2K to 2.5 miles don't have a lot of other interests and do serious work to continue to minimize their groups. It would take another whole paper on those things you need to buy and use to play in this game.

if you would've read the responses you could see that i got some of the answers i was looking for. And so you know, you are wrong my friend. money does not directly affect target size. skill, knowledge, and luck do. cost effective is a relative term and should have been taken into context with what i was saying. also, my "minimal reloading" comment was to make a point as to not have to spend thousands of dollars to get custom equipment for specific wildcats for hydroforming and all the other nonsense. your comment sounds as though you assume i have no knowledge of shooting which would possibly be appropriate if you did not read my first comment or any of the following posts by very helpful and kind people. i have already wasted too much time responding to a message that was not at all helpful or educational. but if it made you feel special then great.

 

[manscout]

8. (added) BTW, if you are considering using your current Savage action, which cartridge is that rifle chambered for? I ask because their short actions support three cartridge sizes, from .223 Rem thru magnum. If not already a magnum bolt face (approx. .532), then you would need to ALSO either replace the bolt or parts of it.

ah yes. i would expect to get a new bolt head if i were to rebarrel. thank you.