I need help. New 223 barrel

[RFutch]

So I have over 400 rounds on this barrel and I cannot find a load for it. Gave up on the 75 ELD and still not having any luck with Berger 85.5. I’ve found my velocity node and carefully weighed each load of varget to the kernel. I tested a bunch with the base of the bearing surface at the neck shoulder junction and had no luck. So today I tried Berger’s suggestion intervals and groups still look like shit. Pics below of .020, .030, .045, and .060 off the lands.

This barrel has a .100 freebore and at .020 off the bullet is barely in the case. Never had much trouble before finding a load but this thing is really frustrating me. I don’t know where to go next.

 

[RFutch]

Also to add. I shot 10 rounds of 77 gr Fed Gold Medal through it. One group was sub .6” the other was sub .5”.

 

[Lightning8]

I may have missed - what is the twist and chamber?

 

[RFutch]

7 twist with .100 freebore. 223 Rem.

 

[Lightning8]

7 twist with .100 freebore. 223 Rem.

223 Wylde or plain 223?

 

[RFutch]

Plain 223

 

[Haney]

Also to add. I shot 10 rounds of 77 gr Fed Gold Medal through it. One group was sub .6” the other was sub .5”.

Those factory 77s must be jumping a long ways . Maybe try jumping your other bullets more and see what happens ?

 

[RTH1800]

Who made barrel?

 

[BLEE]

Work up a load, using Varget to push 80gr VLDs, for less jump and I'm guessing you should get close to 2700fps. You'll get a bit more velocity with CFE 223, or LeverEvolution, with the heavier bullets and depending on barrel length.

 

[RFutch]

Who made barrel?

PVA Osprey.

 

[DairyDictator]

.100 freebore should be perfect for 75 ELD-M's. I would expect 24.5gr varget at .01" off the lands to work pretty well. Interesting to see you gave up on them.

 

[spife7980]

Have good tests you can share of what you did before?

 

[Franko]

I'm currently messing around with developing a gas gun load using my .223 Wylde bolt gun as a test platform. I'm loading a 77gr TMK at 2.26 OAL so I'm playing with a looooong jump and getting respectable groups. I think it might be worth loading up a few and trying even longer jumps than you already have.

 

[RFutch]

Have good tests you can share of what you did before?

Are you asking if what I did with the 75s?

 

[RFutch]

.100 freebore should be perfect for 75 ELD-M's. I would expect 24.5gr varget at .01" off the lands to work pretty well. Interesting to see you gave up on them.

When you say it should be perfect for the 75s is the boat tail junction near the neck/shoulder junction of the case? Because for me it was not. Not even close.

 

[spife7980]

Are you asking if what I did with the 75s?

With everything

 

[RFutch]

With everything

I start out by shooting 200 rounds of break in. Then load 21 rounds/ 3 each at .2 grain intervals and shoot over magnetospeed to find velocity node. Below is for this barrel. I’m currently loaded with the 24.2 charge to test these seating depths.

I’ve used this method with the last six barrels I’ve loaded for and never had an issue until now. I can’t remember the seating depths I tested with the 75s but I was a lot. Almost 3 boxes worth of bullets. 85.5s I’ve done .20 off all the way out to .080 off. Almost every group has been 1.0”-2.5” with either bullet for only 3 rounds.

 

[DairyDictator]

I start out by shooting 200 rounds of break in. Then load 21 rounds/ 3 each at .2 grain intervals and shoot over magnetospeed to find velocity node. Below is for this barrel. I’m currently loaded with the 24.2 charge to test these seating depths. View attachment 8146421

I’ve used this method with the last six barrels I’ve loaded for and never had an issue until now. I can’t remember the seating depths I tested with the 75s but I was a lot. Almost 3 boxes worth of bullets. 85.5s I’ve done .20 off all the way out to .080 off. Almost every group has been 1.0”-2.5” with either bullet for only 3 rounds.

Looking at the spread on 24.1 vs 24.3 and 24.5 you might take a look at 24.3 - 24.5 again. Sure the difference between averages might be larger but both of those have small spreads over the 3 rounds you fired, smallest spread of all the loads you tested. Might be worth checking 24.7 as well.

 

[diggler1833]

Dude, it sounds like you've given it an attempt. Sometimes even the most "proven" bullet just won't work in your barrel with several known powders. I have that with the 130gr Berger in my two 6.5x47s right now...Best I can do is in the .6s, and both barrels shoot the same powder with other 130gr bullets into half that size.

Especially when you're getting decent results with the 77gr FGMM.

FWIW (as I'm in the middle of a. 223 build myself), I would think that .100 freebore is going to require you to jump a lot with the 75gr ELD. I'm going with a wylde chamber (.062 freebore) in my gun specifically for the 69 - 77gr bullets as I have a ton on hand already. Don't quote me as it's been a bit since I did my research, but I want to say you'd be at 2.4'ish COAL before you hit the lands with the 75gr in a wylde chamber.

However your freebore should be about perfect for the 85.5 Berger.

 

[spife7980]

I start out by shooting 200 rounds of break in. Then load 21 rounds/ 3 each at .2 grain intervals and shoot over magnetospeed to find velocity node. Below is for this barrel. I’m currently loaded with the 24.2 charge to test these seating depths. View attachment 8146421

I’ve used this method with the last six barrels I’ve loaded for and never had an issue until now. I can’t remember the seating depths I tested with the 75s but I was a lot. Almost 3 boxes worth of bullets. 85.5s I’ve done .20 off all the way out to .080 off. Almost every group has been 1.0”-2.5” with either bullet for only 3 rounds.

That’s all your load work is?! No wonder you can’t find a load. Not a target to been seen for a powder charge, just some basically useless numbers.

 

[RFutch]

That’s all your load work is?! No wonder you can’t find a load. Not a target to been seen for a powder charge, just some basically useless numbers.

Well yeah but it works great...sometimes lol.

 

[Doom]

Let's think about this. You load 21 rounds where your case prep is geared to make everything the same. You put increasing amounts of powder (energy) into case and fire the rounds over a chronograph and then you look for a spot where the actual energy doesn't show up in the measured velocity and attribute that as a good spot to load. Where is the logic in that? Can you explain the theory behind this?

You would probably be better served to pick a load and play with seating depth.

 

[will67]

2.560 OAL worked best for me with the 75 and 80 Hornadys. But I'm running a Wylde chamber.

 

[RFutch]

Where is the logic in that? Can you explain the theory behind this?

Honestly no I can't. I was shown this method by a buddy to quickly find a spot where the ES was low between charge weights.

It's obviously not working this time, which I was unable to admit until now. I guess I need to go back and test powder charges more.

 

[Doom]

The method was originally proposed by Scott Satterlee and was a one shot per charge test that looked for a "flat spot". Unfortunately it doesn't repeat. Expanding to three shots tried to make it "more significant" but it still doesn't make it significant. To have a true flat or flatter spot requires that the physics of combustion and distribution of losses from the powder to change and then return the way they were. The flat spots come from the random sampling and measurement errors.

Scott Satterlee abandoned this method. You might find the following of interest.



EDIT: I'm not proposing this method per se but it is an evolution of the original method and its dependents.

 

[RFutch]

The method was originally proposed by Scott Satterlee and was a one shot per charge test that looked for a "flat spot". Unfortunately it doesn't repeat. Expanding to three shots tried to make it "more significant" but it still doesn't make it significant. To have a true flat or flatter spot requires that the physics of combustion and distribution of losses from the powder to change and then return the way they were. The flat spots come from the random sampling and measurement errors.

Scott Satterlee abandoned this method. You might find the following of interest.



EDIT: I'm not proposing this method per se but it is an evolution of the original method and its dependents.

Just watched the video thanks. If I were to go farther out with seating depths like he did in this video, what powder charge should I use to test these based off the velocity numbers that I already have?

 

[DairyDictator]

Just watched the video thanks. If I were to go farther out with seating depths like he did in this video, what powder charge should I use to test these based off the velocity numbers that I already have?

Use the charge with a velocity you're happy with. If you're happy with what 24.3 - 24.5 of varget did, that shows some promise and a lot of other shooters end up in that area. If you want a different speed, pick a powder charge that will give the desired speed.

 

[Skeptic1]

I shoot 80 grain amaxes. Straight 223. 2.5" overall length. I get 2850 fps using 24.3 gr rl15. I have a 7 twist shneider barrel 26" legth. I had the chamber throated long. I'm kissing the lands at 2.5" oal. I suggest heating things up.

 

[RFutch]

So I did have one group at .068 with the Berger’s that showed a little promise. I think I’m gonna try that with some higher charge weights and see what happens. Also gonna load some deeper seating depths and see what happens. Thanks for everyone’s help.

 

[CK1.0]

There's no node to find, no such thing, just put as much powder in the case as it takes to hit the speed you're looking for.

If you can prep each and every case as exactly the same as you can, put the same amount of powder in each case down to the kernel, then seat each bullet to within a thou or so base-to-ogive, then almost magically, you'll always find a "node".

For seating depth, I agree with trying something more in the neighborhood of the factory stuff you had tried that shot ok.. chances are those were jumping ~.100" or more, and there's nothing wrong with jumping that much. IMHO jumping that much is better, since the throat erodes far more slowly that way, and the barrel stays shooting the same for longer without you having to do anything other than clean it every ~200-250 rounds.

These days I like to try some rounds without measuring anything, I just put the neck in the middle of the bearing surface of the bullets I plan on using and see what I get... usually, where I decide to park it is not far off from there.

 

[Doom]

Use the charge with a velocity you're happy with. If you're happy with what 24.3 - 24.5 of varget did, that shows some promise and a lot of other shooters end up in that area. If you want a different speed, pick a powder charge that will give the desired speed.

Based on what you have I would just pick a load that fits your velocity.requirement. As for @CK1.0's comments on nodes I'm not sure I agree but I do think there is probably a seating depth that works for any load. I pick a seating depth and shoot to find a range of loads that give similar points of impact (OCW). I seldom if ever load beyond the cartridges SAAMI length.

I shoot 223 in lighter bullets so I don't have any experience with the heavies but I think based on the original comment on little bullet in case you have too much freebore. To deal with it you will probable have to jump quite a bit. The 77s should be a good bullet to do that with.

I think one high-power shooter I know is using a Wylde chamber with the 85.5s.

 

[Haney]

Sierra Match Kings , 77 grains . New barrel .223 ISSF chamber (.169" Freebore} . Bullets are seated just touching the lands .

 

[Dolomite_Supafly]

Here is how I load for 223 and it has worked more often than not.

I start by loading to the lowest SD I can get. If your SDs are excessive you are going to have high/low misses at distance. Once I have a load with single digit SD's I shoot groups. If they dont shoot acceptable I will load a batch a bit long and start reducing OAL until the groups tighten up. I carry a handheld press to the range to make changes there.

And something else that is AR specific. An adjustable gas block can change your group size and location on the target. On more occassions than I can count just adjusting the gas system resulted in a change in the groups, either size or location. I had one gun that would shoot miserable 50 yard groups, at 100 they were even worse. It was a bit over gassed and when I turned the gas down it was ~moa at 100 yards with handloads. Nothing else was changing between groups other than turning the gas down.

 

[RFutch]

Does this look right? This is 85.5 Berger to the lands.

 

[CK1.0]

Does this look right? This is 85.5 Berger to the lands.

View attachment 8147779

I'd push the bullet in the case at least until the neck was completely within the bullet's bearing surface. I'm not convinced having the base of the bullet below the shoulder junction is the cardinal sin it's often purported to be.

Whatever amount of jump that ends up being, even if it's more jump than you're used to, I'd at least give it a try... might shoot.

 

[Skeptic1]

Once I have a load with single digit SD's I shoot groups.

While I certainly agree that you want as low a deviation as possible I find it reasonable if I'm able to keep my spread at 15 fps or lower. I also find that it is easy enough to achieve this.
I went back and looked at the original post. Maybe I missed it. Did you say you're using a gas gun or a bolt?

 

[RFutch]

I went back and looked at the original post. Maybe I missed it. Did you say you're using a gas gun or a bolt?

Bolt action.

 

[otnot]

Your throat is pretty short for the 85.5. If you want to shoot the heavy bullets you’ll need to ream your throat to .169 so you can get a long OAL of at least 2.55. This gives you enough room for powder. I started running CFE223 to get my velocity up to 2850.
Here’s a good read on page 35
Mouse on steroids
Accurate Shooters Discussion

 

[Hickswr]

Nodes

 

[spife7980]

I like a basic ocw. Its never failed me and its based off of results on paper, so real world results.

Set the bullet to .015 off the lands and run a powder test in .2 increments over a 2 grain spread.
Thats 10 charges to test, I like to do 5 bullets of each charge to let me know if Im pulling those way out there shots in a 3 round test like your initial targets in this thread or if its just that bad.

For the 75eld I would probably test from 22.5-24.5 of varget and for the 85.5 I would test 22-23.8

Then come back and post your results. We want to find where two charge weights, or maybe three if were lucky, all impact in the same location. So just basic ocw methodology.

Edit: give it a really good cleaning too.

 

[Milo 2.5]

I am going to go against the grain here. The majority of your groups exhibit satellite grouping, except for the one labeled 1.220.
IME, usually pressure or fitment. Doesn't sound like pressure in your case, but I would loosen and retorque the action screws, make sure the barrel is free floating. If I question action to stock fit, I put a pc of paper under rear tang and tighten the front screw, if you can pull the paper, the action is getting torqued, maybe in a non productive way. If so, I would bed the action.
Your best numbers were 24.3 & 24.5, I would revisit these along with 24.4gr. If all else fails, seat a bunch long and take your press to the range and find a depth.
I've never had a custom chamber 223, but a friend bought a remmage prefit Criterion, and we literally found seat depth by seating deeper by .003" till we found something. Huge pain in the ass, but did get Hornady 75gr BTHP to shoot.
As usual, spife has the best advice IMO.

 

[RFutch]

I am going to go against the grain here. The majority of your groups exhibit satellite grouping, except for the one labeled 1.220.
IME, usually pressure or fitment. Doesn't sound like pressure in your case, but I would loosen and retorque the action screws, make sure the barrel is free floating. If I question action to stock fit, I put a pc of paper under rear tang and tighten the front screw, if you can pull the paper, the action is getting torqued, maybe in a non productive way. If so, I would bed the action.
Your best numbers were 24.3 & 24.5, I would revisit these along with 24.4gr. If all else fails, seat a bunch long and take your press to the range and find a depth.
I've never had a custom chamber 223, but a friend bought a remmage prefit Criterion, and we literally found seat depth by seating deeper by .003" till we found something. Huge pain in the ass, but did get Hornady 75gr BTHP to shoot.
As usual, spife has the best advice IMO.

I checked everything for torque and have even switch chassis and scope along the way to find the same results. Pretty sure those can be ruled out.

 

[RFutch]

Measured a 77 SMK jump to the lands against one loaded at 2.255 coal. Roughly .140 jump is what the FGM 77 that shot ok.

 

[CK1.0]

Measured a 77 SMK jump to the lands against one loaded at 2.255 coal. Roughly .140 jump is what the FGM 77 that shot ok.

Cool.

I know I'm probably an outlier, but I've been jumping .100" in my 6CM for 2 years now... at first it seemed almost crazy, but now it seems perfectly normal. Two different barrels in a row have been hammers jumping like that.

 

[RFutch]

Threw some more money down range yesterday. Used 24.5 gr and did a seating depth test. .120 off the lands shows some promise other than the flyer so I guess I’ll test more around it. Red dots are 1/2”

 

[Doom]

If the above groups are at 100 yds then you have a problem. Was this shot round robin? Which bullet and load?

 

[supercorndogs]

It looks to me like its shooting groups to different POI. I would check the scope and action bedding, or action chassis interface.

 

[Partsunavailable]

When someone posts a target like that, it's probably not load development. Rings and bases are where I would look first.

 

[RFutch]

If the above groups are at 100 yds then you have a problem. Was this shot round robin? Which bullet and load?

Not round robin. 24.5 varget 85.5 Berger.

 

[RFutch]

When someone posts a target like that, it's probably not load development. Rings and bases are where I would look first.

It looks to me like its shooting groups to different POI. I would check the scope and action bedding, or action chassis interface.

I’ve checked all torque and found nothing. This is the second chassis it’s been in and the second proven scope that’s been on it.