Rifle Scopes I need help with scope measurements.

[SourMash]

For the sake of being flamed here for being ignorant, Is there an article or book that I can read for beginners and scopes? I want to know how to do the math to find out the max elevation that I can expect from scopes and moa rails. I'm gonna share my question but instead of just telling me the answer, please explain how to figure it out myself. First off, this is going on a V22. I want to be able to take it out to 600 yards (EVENTUALLY). I'm going with a ZCO 5-27 mrad, once I commit to a reticle. The spec sheet states that it has 35 mil of elevation and I've ordered my Vudoo with a 60 moa rail. I would like to zero at 25 yards but no more than 50 yards. So, back to the initial reason for this post, Y'all got any thing to read up on, other than experience?

P.S. - I have plenty of time to change my rail size if I need to

 

[_Windrider_]

There is no way to know because every rifle and ammo combo zeros differently. Not every scope will zero at exact optical Center or is set at exact middle from the factory. For a 22 you’ll get everything you need with a scope with a 34mm tube and 20 MOa rail, realistically you could get away with a 0 MOA rail. A 60 MOA rail is not going to help you with a 22.

 

[PinesAndProjectiles]

Kudos for your willingness to learn. Most guys just want an answer without putting in any leg work.

As for your question, I can't really answer it the way you want me to.

With a zero MOA base, you're looking at about half the travel of your scope's elevation adjustment, IE 17.5 mils.

A 20 MOA base is about 6.6 mils. Therefore, you're looking at 19.8 mils just to zero the rifle.

So, you can either opt for a rail with less built in angle, or you could look for another scope with more internal adjustment

 

[MojoNixon]

I too would like this information. It doesn’t make you ignorant for not knowing. Naive, maybe, but not ignorant. Ignorance is having the info in front of you and ignoring it. Naïveté is not knowing the info is there and not going out of your way to find what you seek. But seeking the info or asking for help in finding the info, in my book makes you inquisitive, if not wise, after a fashion.
As MinnesotaMulisha said, kudos.

 

[SourMash]

Thank you fellas for the replies. Is it wrong, or bad for the scope to be zeroed at near the bottom of its elevation travel? In my mind (and I may be wrong) if my base is angled for 60 moa and I want a 25 yard zero, I'm going to have to adjust my elevation all the way down. I would come back up a click or two just so it isn't maxed out but you get the idea. This is the part that confuses me. Assuming that I have the scope in this position and it works, how much Total elevation would I have? The moa and mills difference is throwing me off

 

[PinesAndProjectiles]

Thank you fellas for the replies. Is it wrong, or bad for the scope to be zeroed at near the bottom of its elevation travel? In my mind (and I may be wrong) if my base is angled for 60 moa and I want a 25 yard zero, I'm going to have to adjust my elevation all the way down. I would come back up a click or two just so it isn't maxed out but you get the idea. This is the part that confuses me. Assuming that I have the scope in this position and it works, how much Total elevation would I have? The moa and mills difference is throwing me off

Ultimately, you'd want to be in the center of your total elevation travel. But, I've got a Gen II Razor in a 20 MOA mount, and it sits on a 40 MOA rail on top of my Vudoo, so 60 MOA total.

The Razor has approx. 28.5 MIL of travel, so far less than your ZCO, and I still manage to make it work.

So far, I've had no issues with bottoming out on my travel.

As for the conversion, 1 MOA is equal to .33 MILs

 

[SourMash]

@MinnesotaMulisha thank you very much for that explanation

 

[308pirate]

The whole point of inclined scope bases is to bias the erector towards the bottom of its adjustment range when you zero the rifle.

This maximizes the available elevation adjustment.

 

[SourMash]

The whole point of inclined scope bases is to bias the erector towards the bottom of its adjustment range when you zero the rifle.

This maximizes the available elevation adjustment.

@308pirate Are you saying that I'm correct in my scenario in post #5? That's the way I'm reading it anyways. If so, is it bad or damaging for the scope to be adjusted near the bottom of the elevation?

 

[308pirate]

@308pirate Are you saying that I'm correct in my scenario in post #5? That's the way I'm reading it anyways. If so, is it bad or damaging for the scope to be adjusted near the bottom of the elevation?

Yes, you're correct. A sloped scope base will force the scope to be zeroed towards the bottom end of its elevation travel.

No, there is nothing wrong with the scope zeroed towards the bottom of its travel.

However, nobody uses a 60 MOA rail. Not sure where you came up with that one. A 20 MOA rail will provide enough offset to provide elevation adjustment all the way out to 1500 yards for almost all reasonable centerfire cartridges.

We all pretty universally use 20 MOA bases under our scopes without a second thought.

Also, DO NOT freak the fuck out if your windage zero isn't exactly in the center of the scope's lateral adjustment range.

Please stop overthinking this.

 

[SourMash]

Yes, you're correct. A sloped scope base will force the scope to be zeroed towards the bottom end of its elevation travel.

No, there is nothing wrong with the scope zeroed towards the bottom of its travel.

However, nobody uses a 60 MOA rail. Not sure where you came up with that one. A 20 MOA rail will provide enough offset to provide elevation adjustment all the way out to 1500 yards for almost all reasonable centerfire cartridges.

We all pretty universally use 20 MOA bases under our scopes without a second thought.

Also, DO NOT freak the fuck out if your windage zero isn't exactly in the center of the scope's lateral adjustment range.

Please stop overthinking this.

I see where I lost you guys. This set up is going on a Vudoo 22lr.

 

[308pirate]

I see where I lost you guys. This set up is going on a Vudoo 22lr.

I'm pretty sure you still don't need a 60 MOA rail.

 

[Slab74]

I have shot squeakers at 280+ with a 0 moa base and a cheap Bushnell scope on a m&p 15-22. You will be fine with 20 moa and your base selection will be the least of your concerns at 600 with a .22. Good luck.

 

[SourMash]

Ok, again Thanks for the education. I will contact Vudoo and change that rail height.

 

[BikePilot]

Before you change the rail out, run the ballistics on your max range, I think you said 600yrds, to see how much elevation you will need. 600 is really far for a 22 and I imagine you just might need that 60moa base.

Scopes are generally thought to have the clearest glass in the middle of the range. I’ve personally never been able to see a difference in my zco, but ideally you’d be near the middle of the scopes range when shooting at the distance you shoot the most.

 

[acudaowner]

not sure if it help you any , but for me to shoot my 22 at a 600 yard target my try dope was 113.5 moa of elevation I ended up hitting tree branches not the target but shooting under the tree branches only led the rounds being way short of the desired target at out range so either the tree branches are in the way of using the 22 at 600 or I have to trim the overhanging tree branches to get the shot I want . but my scope has 90 moa of elevation max the adjustable scope base offers 100 or more moa of my needed 113 and my scope the 13 or what else is needed ,at least that is what I am hopping for but so far its worked out to 500 yards also we had to start using those t1000's target blinkers as no one at the range including my self could see the impacts past 300 yards and it hits the steel quiet enough to make hearing the hits really hard while other people are shooting . good luck to you on your shots you can do it .

 

[SourMash]

Thanks again guys!

 

[VargmatII]

Hate to be that guy, but what is the drive behind shooting a 22lr beyond 100 meters?
I never understood that!
Inside of 50 meters a 22lr is super accurate, but beyond that it just sucks more and more, if you ask me.

To stick to the topic. How about a 30 MOA rail on your Vudoo?
That way you will have lots of elevation available, and still probably wont have the erector anywhere near fully bottomed out.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Hate to be that guy, but what is drive behind shooting a 22lr beyond 100 meters?
I never understood that!
Inside of 50 meters a 22lr is super accurate, but beyond that it just sucks more and more, if you ask me.

To stick to the topic. How about a 30 MOA rail on your Vudoo?
That way you will have lots of elevation available, and still probably wont have the erector anywhere near fully bottomed out.

Same reason you shoot any rifle past any distance. For the challenge (and at times for practicality).

If you have trouble past 50-100m, it’s likely you and not something inherent with the .22.

People are regularly hitting practical size targets at 3-400yds with a .22

 

[Eostech]

Lot of suggestions here without a base of facts lol.

So, from the Lapua app; "BC G1 for all Rimfire .22 LR bullets = 0.172" which could be a little optimistic but we'll run with that.
Using 1070 FPS, 15' F, 1013 Hpa and 2.4" sight height.

we get around 36 mils of drop from the Berger website, But
the Lapua app gives us around 42 mils of drop.

1 MOA is actually about 0.29 mils.
So your 60 moa rail = about 17.5 mils

With a ZCO, all things being perfect you 'could' zero at 25 yards but that's not something I'd plan on.
Though 35 mils gets you in the ball park for 600 yards and you would hold for the last part.
350-400 yards is about your optical center so if you plan on shooting around there a lot, that's pretty good.

 

[308pirate]

First off, this is going on a V22. I want to be able to take it out to 600 yards (EVENTUALLY).

How on earth do you plan to spot your misses, or even your impacts, at 600 yards with a 22 Long Rifle?

Have you figured out how much deflection per mph of wind a 22 LR bullet will suffer at 600 yards?

Elevation is the least of your issues.

How much long range shooting experience do you have? I ask because it doesn't seem like you have a frame of reference to think this through.

 

[Eostech]

For a 22 you’ll get everything you need with a scope with a 34mm tube and 20 MOa rail, realistically you could get away with a 0 MOA rail. A 60 MOA rail is not going to help you with a 22.

With a low BC and low mv, a .22 is a prime candidate for a lot of built in moa, unless you can afford a Charlie TARAC, lol.

 

[Dthomas3523]

With regards to .22, unless you’re going to have a camera or a secondary person closer to the target......past about 400yds, spotting is going to be fairly hard.

If you don’t have some really good dirt, even past 200 can get hairy on spotting things.

Dirt berms that show dust a lot, and cleanly painted targets will be your friend with extended distances with a .22.

As for the OP’s original question, the extremely basic and not exact (as stated, each rifle setup will be different) way to determine:

Take the total travel in the optic and cut it in half. For example a ZCO has 36mils of total elevation. So that’s 18 mils.

Use 18 as your perfect world zero. Then look at your needs. If you need within 3 mils of the 18, add a 20 moa base. That’s roughly 6 mils. And that will get you 24 mils in a perfect world. If you need within 3 mils of that, add another 10 or 20 moa until you are more than 3 mils away from what you’ll be needing for you intended distance.

If I knew I needed say, 23mils, I’d throw a 30moa base on the rifle and have 27 mils (in theory).

The reason for the 3 mil buffer is so if the rifle doesn’t zero close to that halfway point (plus the added incline of rail), you’re not having to go back and swap out your mount or rail.

With modern 6mm and 6.5, most wouldn’t even need the 20moa rail we all use as we don’t shoot far enough most of the time.

 

[SourMash]

How on earth do you plan to spot your misses, or even your impacts, at 600 yards with a 22 Long Rifle?

Have you figured out how much deflection per mph of wind a 22 LR bullet will suffer at 600 yards?

Elevation is the least of your issues.

How much long range shooting experience do you have? I ask because it doesn't seem like you have a frame of reference to think this through.

You sir are exactly correct. I'll be the first to tell you that I don't know what I'm doing. I was raised on some property outside of Metro atl that has everything I ever needed to hunt. I'm almost 50 and my Kids are grown and self reliant now, and I'm still on the same piece of land. The woods here are thick. I never had to take a shot at a deer that was over 50 yards away. I have a small range that I'm currently upgrading here on the property but it's only 120 yards. The nearest ELR range that I'm aware of is WAY down in Southwest GA at Arena Training which is a 4 hour drive for me. I REALLY enjoy shooting rimfire and I just want to prove to myself and a couple of naysayers that I can indeed hit 600 yards with a .22lr. I like nice shit and I have the ability to get this Vudoo exactly like I want it set up, as I think it would be the perfect 22lr to me. You guys build 22's for trainers to mimic your centerfires. I don't have a really nice centerfire (yet) so you could say that I'm doing it backwards and I'm getting the Vudoo as my primary rifle because that's what I really enjoy. I've slowly been piecing together the essential tools that I think I'll need for rimfire ELR but who knows if I'll ever get everything I need. So sir, your assumption of me is entirely correct as I don't know what I'm doing, but I WANT to learn and I plan on doing exactly that. I thank you and everyone else here for your help. I will continue to ask the elementary questions because I simply don't know.

 

[308pirate]

You sir are exactly correct. I'll be the first to tell you that I don't know what I'm doing. I was raised on some property outside of Metro atl that has everything I ever needed to hunt. I'm almost 50 and my Kids are grown and self reliant now, and I'm still on the same piece of land. The woods here are thick. I never had to take a shot at a deer that was over 50 yards away. I have a small range that I'm currently upgrading here on the property but it's only 120 yards. The nearest ELR range that I'm aware of is WAY down in Southwest GA at Arena Training which is a 4 hour drive for me. I REALLY enjoy shooting rimfire and I just want to prove to myself and a couple of naysayers that I can indeed hit 600 yards with a .22lr. I like nice shit and I have the ability to get this Vudoo exactly like I want it set up, as I think it would be the perfect 22lr to me. You guys build 22's for trainers to mimic your centerfires. I don't have a really nice centerfire (yet) so you could say that I'm doing it backwards and I'm getting the Vudoo as my primary rifle because that's what I really enjoy. I've slowly been piecing together the essential tools that I think I'll need for rimfire ELR but who knows if I'll ever get everything I need. So sir, your assumption of me is entirely correct as I don't know what I'm doing, but I WANT to learn and I plan on doing exactly that. I thank you and everyone else here for your help. I will continue to ask the elementary questions because I simply don't know.

Nothing wrong with any of that.

I don't think anyone thinks you're doing it backwards by starting with a rimfire. If anything, I'd say yours is the correct order and you'll learn a shitload more starting with one.

I wanted to make sure you understood the difficulties you'll run into with such a light and slow bullet that far away. It can be extremely frustrating to get zero feedback from your shot. In fact, a shot that provides you no feedback is, in my opinion, a complete waste of time and money.

 

[~JM~]

SourMash,

Have you seen 22Plinkster on YouTube?

22plinkster

Who doesn't like trick shots?!?! My channel consists of a variety of .22 trick shots with a few hunting and fishing videos showing up here and there. I am no...

www.youtube.com

I've heard that 22LR @ 300yds mimics 308 @ 1K yds. Don't know how accurate that statement may be.

 

[VargmatII]

Same reason you shoot any rifle past any distance. For the challenge (and at times for practicality).

If you have trouble past 50-100m, it’s likely you and not something inherent with the .22.

People are regularly hitting practical size targets at 3-400yds with a .22

I get that different strokes for different folks apply. I am just not masochistic enough to try and use such an anemic round for such distance.

I've seen people ping steel at 300 meters with a 22lr and nothing about it tickled my feelings. But again, that is just me.

To the Op I will say that you seem to be right on track with awesome surroundings on top of that, so keep at it.

 

[SourMash]

SourMash,

Have you seen 22Plinkster on YouTube?

22plinkster

Who doesn't like trick shots?!?! My channel consists of a variety of .22 trick shots with a few hunting and fishing videos showing up here and there. I am no...

www.youtube.com

I've heard that 22LR @ 300yds mimics 308 @ 1K yds. Don't know how accurate that statement may be.

Thanks, I have not seen him before. Watching that Vudoo makes February seem so far away (Thats when my Vudoo will be ready)

 

[~JM~]

Thanks, I have not seen him before. Watching that Vudoo makes February seem so far away (Thats when my Vudoo will be ready)

He's a talented shot!