I would like your opinions on a stage

[lash]

This is the stage:

Standing Positional: 75y 5” & 3” double rack, 110y 8” & 4” on hangers, 10 rounds, 100 points possible; Start standing, on command move to shooting position and from an unsupported standing position (No Bags, Sticks, Bipods, or Tripods…but Slings are okay) engage steel targets from near to far w/2 shots on each large target and 1 shot on each small target, move behind truck and engage 2” at 75y then 4” at 110y w/2 shots each from on top of hood. 120 second par.

Opinions?

 

[CBeck]

Sounds reasonable. One of the rimfire matches I go to has been having off hand stages at 100 yards at smaller targets. Not even a sling is allowed.

 

[lash]

Sounds reasonable. One of the rimfire matches I go to has been having off hand stages at 100 yards at smaller targets. Not even a sling is allowed.

That's how I've been running them myself so far, but felt that if you have and can use a sling, I'll give you that advantage. It's about practical shooting knowledge and experience as much as it is about gamesmanship.

EDIT: I meant for the standing positional only. I have to ponder on the kneeling stage for a bit. There were some who were only sit/kneeling, If you know what I mean. I have to give it some thought, since this specifically favors the younger more flexible shooters, but I'm also not sure that it isn't practically acceptable.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

There always seems to be an offhand stage in all the NRL22/X matches I shoot. I was surprised to not see one in the upcoming NRL22X next weekend. I was pretty happy about it too. I dislike them. But I understand they are part of the game and I need to just learn how to shoot them better.

TL/DR: Sounds reasonable.

 

[lash]

There always seems to be an offhand stage in all the NRL22/X matches I shoot. I was surprised to not see one in the upcoming NRL22X next weekend. I was pretty happy about it too. I dislike them. But I understand they are part of the game and I need to just learn how to shoot them better.

TL/DR: Sounds reasonable.

I realize that a good sampling of people don’t like positional stages and appreciate the input. I tend to bounce my more non-traditional stages off of a couple PRS shooters, so I get the perspective. I only add one per match and have made it clear ahead of time that there will always be one positional stage per match.

Those that get it will practice positional enough to get through. It’s okay. I’m not honestly good enough at positional stages. So, it’s not like I’m going for a personal advantage. Plus, I add a movement to supported to make the effort worthwhile.

 

[1911JMB]

I like positional stages I think they are a very important part of practical hunting.

I wish I was better at it but just shooting from a rest all of the time will leave you very unprepared for some real world situations

 

[littlepod]

I like positional kneeling, sitting, and prone, but I just can't figure out how to do standing right. Elbow/hip bone contact etc just doesn't work out well for me.

My local match, none of our shooters want us to add unsupported/sling stages so I haven't done that for our bonus stages. So the only time we do it is when we're forced to in the NRL22 CoF.

I am trying to do more movement stages though, something to get up your heart rate, like do 15 pushups, then do the stage. Or you start 50 yards from the stage, clock starts and you drag all your gear to the stage and shoot it.

I ran a fun stage this month that people seemed to like. Rifle grounded (prone stage), mag in hand, unloaded. Ammo is at least 15 feet away. Go to ammo, load 1 round, come back to rifle drop down and take 1 shot. Run back to ammo, load 2 rounds, shoot 2 shots, run back to ammo, 3 rounds, 3 shots, then 4 rounds 4 shots. Avg times were 90s for advanced shooters, 2min for intermediate, and 2.5min for beginners.

 

[DFOOSKING]

I'm pro unsupported shots.

I find if you mix other shots in with the unsupported shots....they are far more digestible. Just like you've done.

There was a NRL22 stage where it was just stand there and take 10 standing unsupported shots. Wasn't very inventive. Was more endurance than skill as the plates for their unsupported stages are always massive. Only time I do poorly on unsupported stages is when we have 30-40 mph days.

Another good one was a bonus stage where there was a spinner at like 65yds. Shooter could pick any unsupported position they liked. You shoot in that position till you spin the spinner. Then transition to another unsupported position. Then repeat. Hits were like 5 points and spins were 15 points. So spins basically were worth 20 in the end since you got the 15 bonus plus 5 for the hit. No positions maybe be repeated unless you manage to go through them all. 12 round stage.

It is always fun to watch the 20lb gamer guns go 1 for 10 offhand and they need a breather about half way to get through it.

The unsupported stages are the one set of stages that having a Vudoo doesnt mean shit. The lower tier guns are more than capable of keeping up. People just flat out don't practice it. So they are easy points to mount a come back with.

 

[lash]

I like positional kneeling, sitting, and prone, but I just can't figure out how to do standing right. Elbow/hip bone contact etc just doesn't work out well for me.

Well, the good thing about positional shooting is that it can be adapted to your personal style, taste, body type, etc... here are some random pictures I snagged off the net showing some different ways to accomplish the standing positional method:

I’ve seen people do well using all styles of standing. Practice until you find one that you are comfortable with and you'll find that you do better at it.

 

[lash]

Whoops! Missed posting one:

 

[flatland1]

I shot enough of the offhand during XC HP matches to last me a lifetime - I always referred to my own offhand shooting as 'awfulhand'. Even with a heavy Creedmoor coat like the Marine in the above post, I struggled. The main reason it took me four years to leg-out and earn my Distinguished Rifleman Badge was poor offhand shooting. I finally bought a dedicated 22RF AR15 service rifle upper from CLE and shot it offhand until I could sometimes manage a 96~97 score at 200. Part of my problem is that most of us don't like to practice what we don't do well at - I loved shooting sitting rapids, and so had to force myself to shoot at least 20rds of offhand before I would allow myself to move on to sitting rapids (didn't shoot rapids with the CLE 22RF upper, since the lack of recoil would screw-up my cadence when shooting the 223). Offhand with a 15lb AR15 is pretty comfortable, since most of the added weight was in the buttstock, but it's not much fun with my comp 40XB/V-22/RimX, all of which are more muzzle heavy. I've got a CZ457 American with a 23" Shilen that's about 1/2lb heavier than the OEM 24" bbl, and a V-22 sporter with a 22" Krieger #4 sporter in a Manners EH2 stock - both of these rifles are relatively fun to shoot offhand, especially compared to the heavy comp rifles.

 

[CBeck]

My Vudoo is probably 20 lbs and I do fine offhand with or without a sling. The only time I practice offhand is eliminating tree rats so I still see the practical use for having off hand stages.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

Whoops! Missed posting one:

View attachment 7601983

This photo is a perfect example of why I like a stock/chassis with an adjustable butt stock that has vertical butt pad adjustment.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

My Vudoo is probably 20 lbs and I do fine offhand with or without a sling. The only time I practice offhand is eliminating tree rats so I still see the practical use for having off hand stages.

It's absolutely practical. I just don't like it. Probably because I suck at it. But it is a real world position. Possibly the most common in regards to shooting in general. Hard to argue with the MD so I just moan and do it.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

I have to ponder on the kneeling stage for a bit. There were some who were only sit/kneeling, If you know what I mean. I have to give it some thought, since this specifically favors the younger more flexible shooters, but I'm also not sure that it isn't practically acceptable.

Speaking as an older (68) shooter with a damaged, ROM-limited right leg and lots of spinal and elbow osteoarthritis, the standing/kneeling positions common to NRL22 is why I don't do those matches.

I heartily agree with the positions' practicality in terms of learning/using true shooting skills. But, as I've told every MD I can buttonhole long enough to harangue, there is an untapped market in putting on PRS-style matches with senior-friendly shooting positions. I know a lot of guys who quit PRS because the move-shoot-move stages requiring going to or getting up from knees or prone takes forever or simply cannot be done without pain/difficulty. I never get off more than half my shots on such stages, but I still crave the competition environment. I just tell myself "look at all that ammo you're saving."

We old guys got time & dollars; just run a match where our shooting skills matter and gym skills don't.

 

[lash]

Speaking as an older (68) shooter with a damaged, ROM-limited right leg and lots of spinal and elbow osteoarthritis, the standing/kneeling positions common to NRL22 is why I don't do those matches.

I heartily agree with the positions' practicality in terms of learning/using true shooting skills. But, as I've told every MD I can buttonhole long enough to harangue, there is an untapped market in putting on PRS-style matches with senior-friendly shooting positions. I know a lot of guys who quit PRS because the move-shoot-move stages requiring going to or getting up from knees or prone takes forever or simply cannot be done without pain/difficulty. I never get off more than half my shots on such stages, but I still crave the competition environment. I just tell myself "look at all that ammo you're saving."

We old guys got time & dollars; just run a match where our shooting skills matter and gym skills don't.

I hear you and do in fact give plenty of consideration to our senior shooters. I am a senior myself and cannot move like I used to be able to either. I will not change the NRL22 stages, as that would negate the possibility for those that compete in that arena to honestly compete.

When there is a heavy lean towards a certain type of stage in the NRL22 COF, I do my best to try and balance my bonus 5 stages to create a balanced total COF. As much as you as a senior have your wants and needs for your ideal COF, so do all of the other shooters. Those that are junior, sometimes as young as 7-10 years old, those that want to shoot very PRS style stages because that’s their thing, those that cannot go prone, those that have bad knees, etc.

It may not matter to you whether there is a decent balance, but it matters to me. If I were to try and please everyone that corners me about a like/dislike, it would literally be impossible to create a COF at all.

That having been said, we try to make it clear to all attending that these matches are intended to be fun as well as challenging and so we will work to adjust individually to those with disabilities. That includes having step stools available for those that might be too short for a stage and allowances for those that have trouble getting up and down. In addition, we keep the times plenty long to allow for the varied group that shoot these matches. These are not races, they are shooting stages.

Oh, and statistically, the overwhelming majority of shooters that attend here in this area are indeed PRS shooters. Most of them don’t like the positional stages either...oh well.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

It may not matter to you whether there is a decent balance, but it matters to me. If I were to try and please everyone that corners me about a like/dislike, it would literally be impossible to create a COF at all.

Please let me clarify! In no way am I suggesting that matches be dumbed down or NRL22 COFs be set aside!!

While I fully understand that such a thing may not be feasible in terms of time or budget, what I'm suggesting is running a separate match or something akin to running a "side match" on the target sets used for "regular" PRS/NRL22/etc matches where seniors or whoever else wants to play can shoot from whatever position in which they are comfortable, even going so far as to put up some sort of bench.

I, and a few other PRS regulars I know, shoot a little monthly rimfire match which is essentially "shooting gallery" style: three racks of 20 steel targets (IPSC, circle, egg) each at 50, 100, 150 yards. Target sizes range from about 4 MOA down to 1.5-2MOA at each range. Shoot from a bench or "tactical" off props such as stools, ropes, ladders, etc. This match is popular with new shooters as well as men and women well into their 70s and 80s. It runs on a "tee time" format so shooters have very little sit-around time; 4 new shooters start every 20 minutes and rotate through in under an hour (12 shooters on the line at one time).

There is a "mini-PRS" variant of this match wherein multiple PRS-like target sets are placed on the square 150-yard-deep range; each target has a colored card on or near it to associate it with a given stage. Engagement is done from benches or the aforementioned "tactical" props. The tee-times are farther apart because the whole format is more complex... call it a 5-stand clays equivalent of traditional sporting clays.

Thanks for your reply. I'll shut up now!

 

[1911JMB]

We have a old timers division and allow them to shoot from chairs or other supports as required.

Our goal everyone shoots to hopefully test the full level of there competency

 

[lash]

It is not now nor will my intent ever be to shut anyone up, so if that’s how I’m coming across then I’ve got it wrong.

I do like some of the ideas and formats you guys are bringing up, but I don’t know how I would reconcile a completely different format along with the NRL22 stages. Perhaps sometime in the future I could add another match with a different style if there is enough interest to support it.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

It is not now nor will my intent ever be to shut anyone up, so if that’s how I’m coming across then I’ve got it wrong.

I do like some of the ideas and formats you guys are bringing up, but I don’t know how I would reconcile a completely different format along with the NRL22 stages. Perhaps sometime in the future I could add another match with a different style if there is enough interest to support it.

No, you didn't come across that way at all - but I did hijack your thread.

Setting up and running matches is time-consuming and potentially drama-laden. When range operators barely have time to run the matches they already do, taking a chance on something new is not at all appealing.... especially when current matches fill up every time (well, they did when one could buy ammo or components).

 

[littlepod]

The matches I run I try to be accommodating. Most of the shooters are there to have fun, and 75% of them aren't even NRL22 members. They don't care about prizes, just want to get off their 10 rounds per stage. So for the ones that are having issues/time with their transitions, I usually stop scoring after 2 minutes, but let them finish the stage. This is for young guns, old guns, beginners.

My goal is to get return shooters. I don't have prizes at our match. Top shooters will finish in the top. Ones with accommodations required just are there to have fun and I want them to come back.

 

[steve123]

For the elderly you could start a bucket (3 or 5 gallon), and sticks division (shooting sticks), on all the same targets. Shooting sticks aren't nearly as steady as a tripod off a ballhead and ARCA swiss so it provides challenge.
The main thing is for these old guys to enjoy shooting a match again without suffering from their ailments and competing with men in their prime.

I cut back on NRL22 and 22rf wildcat matches because I wasn't competitive anymore against the 20lb rifles and younger men that go to a bunch of PRS matches that are so amazingly tuned up.

Here's some pics from a more laid back type of match with airguns but this month they are allowing 22rf for the first time. Mostly just to show the bucket and sticks. We do have one offhand stage during the match. Most of us are older shooters as well but the younger more fit men don't always win like in this March match. I think 2 of the 7 matches we've shot so far were won by the younger guys.

Results - Extreme Field Target results from 03/27/21 in PHX, AZ

I'm sorry that this is a bit late but I've had a wild couple days. On Friday night we finally got moved into the house we've been remodeling. Finished moving the absolute essentials around midnight and I needed to tape and mud some drywall joints in the garage so it'd be ready for the painter...

www.airgunnation.com

 

[Boxerglocker]

I personally think having a standing stage every once in a while if fine. I think they should be made easy at first with generous targets and shorter distances and the difficulty increased marginally but never to a point where only experts can shoot them.

 

[DisplacedTexan]

You'll never see an unsupported stage at my matches. I hate them, and most of my shooters agree. I'll leave that nonsense to other MDs.

Imo, if you need to take a shot, you should make the shot count by finding support for your rifle. These are not battle rifles, they're not meant to take offhand shots with. Once again, this is my opinion and I'm not looking for drama.

 

[littlepod]

I do like the no-bag stages. There's always something to put your rifle on that has to be better than standing unsupported. Maybe I'll incorporate some no bag stages, so it's up to you to figure out how to use a sling & barricade to make it stable.

 

[Eoddave27]

I’m not a big fan of unsupported stages for precision rifle matches. Precision rifles are not built to be shot unsupported and when you do there is really nothing precise about it. It is also really tough and discouraging to the younger shooters in the matches. I’ve seen youth shooters actually have to set out of stages because they were not strong enough to hold their rifle up and shoot the stage safely.

 

[lash]

I’m not a big fan of unsupported stages for precision rifle matches. Precision rifles are not built to be shot unsupported and when you do there is really nothing precise about it. It is also really tough and discouraging to the younger shooters in the matches. I’ve seen youth shooters actually have to set out of stages because they were not strong enough to hold their rifle up and shoot the stage safely.

These are .22s, not PRS built 25 lb. barricade bench-rest rifles. I think that you and many others here might be surprised to see the positive results of the unsupported stages, across categories and ages.

The targets are appropriately sized for the stage and your argument that precision rifles are not meant to be shot unsupported is refuted by every Olympic shooting competition ever held.

As to the younger shooters, this creates a great opportunity to teach them the correct method to shoot this way. We’ve even showed older shooters proper technique since this is meant to be a good fun experience for everyone.

 

[Eoddave27]

Well most of the guys I shoot with have 16-20lb rifles. I‘m not trying to start a debate about the merits of unsupported shooting. I will say I wouldn’t be taking a 20 lb rifle to shoot a match unsupported with though. It’s just the wrong tool for the job. You asked for an opinion and that’s mine. I just don’t cere for unsupported stages and it seems to be the general consensus with the guys I shoot with.

I will add that a lot of the unsupported stages I have seen just seem ridiculous here. A 6” target at 200 yards or an 8” target at 300 yards off hand is just a wasted stage that could be used for something that is actually fun.

 

[Funcpottr]

Fun is watching my son get 1 hit on an unsupported standing stage in a match then hanging out after the match to discuss technique, run a mag, refine support hand placement, and then ping 7 out of 10 at a 40 yard and 60 yard plate. 4" and 6" if I remember correctly. The smile he had after that string - almost as good as the smile he had after beating the "old" guys by at least 3 hits at the next match on the unsupported stage.

It is very true that most folks don't enjoy something they aren't particularly good at - especially in a field where they are used to relative success. It is also true that the only things that stop growing and improving are dying or dead. I plan to keep pushing my limits and discomforts until they become daisies.

 

[chevy_man]

You'll never see an unsupported stage at my matches. I hate them, and most of my shooters agree. I'll leave that nonsense to other MDs.

Imo, if you need to take a shot, you should make the shot count by finding support for your rifle. These are not battle rifles, they're not meant to take offhand shots with. Once again, this is my opinion and I'm not looking for drama.

You can't get better if you don't practice.

I shot positional for years as something to do. It separates the top shooters. The ones who are willing to practice everything, vs the ones that whine about "it's too hard".

 

[Starbuck]

You'll never see an unsupported stage at my matches. I hate them, and most of my shooters agree. I'll leave that nonsense to other MDs.

Imo, if you need to take a shot, you should make the shot count by finding support for your rifle. These are not battle rifles, they're not meant to take offhand shots with. Once again, this is my opinion and I'm not looking for drama.

Finally, a dissenter on this thread who is not part of the PRS/NRL groupthink that a unsupported standing stage is worthwhile or desirable at a tactical rimfire match.

It is contrived, and it is a straw man argument that shooting a 15-20# RF rifle offhand standing is "training for hunting." If I am hunting, I have trained to quickly deploy a tripod or sticks rather than take an unsupported standing shot. Unless of course, one is a millionaire member of the Safari Club, who in Africa, is handed his rifle from his gun bearer, to shoot a fucking elephant at 30y offhand. Does one need RF training for that, LOL? Hunting is done with light rifles, for a reason.

Offhand standing IMO belongs in the established discipline of smallbore silhouette, where one shoots an 8-10# rifle, and people will have some fun, rather than suffer shooting a 15-20# rifle offhand.

Oh, and I have no opinions on other ridiculous PRS/NRL stages, either.

 

[lash]

Why is your .22 RF 15-20 pounds? That’s what I’d like to know.

So are you saying you like the stage then? It’s hard for me to tell.

 

[Starbuck]

Why is your .22 RF 15-20 pounds? That’s what I’d like to know.

So are you saying you like the stage then? It’s hard for me to tell.

Just weighed my Sako Quad, Factory Varmint Bbl., Manners T-2 or 4, can't fucking remember, no extra weight, AI Mount, Henny 4-16LT glass, Harris Bipod (the Horror!), and it's 14.5#. So, I was off a few ounces relative to 15#.

A few guys who shoot with me have added weights to both their CF and mirrored RF rigs so they get to 20-25#. Gamers!

Do I like the stage? No, for reasons stated.

 

[DFOOSKING]

Why does a stage have to be "training for hunting"?

I thought this format was supposed to be "scaled down centerfire matches."

Matches that have their origins in Mil/LEO sniper training type scenarios. Or maybe I'm confused. Do we shoot squirrels and whitetails from rooftops commonly?

Is this site not Snipershide.com? Not HuntersHide.com.....?

Does that mean I hate scenarios that are hunting oriented? No....of course not.

But I think its very shortsighted that these matches are solely training for hunting.

My rimfire rifle is just a Bergara B14R stuffed in my 308 centerfire gun's parts. Normally....its suppressed with a 10rnd mag....its 22lbs. Converted over to the Bergara rimfire its 14lbs and change. Its a feather now comparatively speaking.

How does bitching about guys running heavy rigs have any bearing when they CHOOSE to run them versus packing around a Base Class gun type build that easily mimics lighter setup or a hunting rig? You can CHOOSE to run a Base gun in Open.

Either way, hunting or tactical or purely competition your ass should be able to shoot your rifle passably unsupported as all those trades have examples of doing it.

And if you CHOOSE to build a rig your too weak adequately hold onto....how's that anybody else's fault but your own?

If your handicapped....thats one thing. But a fully functional human being should be acknowledging the original format and plan accordingly. Not build some heavy piece of shit gun cuz it looks cool or they want to game 97% of the match and then bitch they can't handle the compromise they had to make to gain that advantage. Tough shit.

I bet an actual smallbore shooter would walk on the majority of us. Laughing that people are bitching about hitting 6" plates at 75yds.

I know my father who does nothing but hunt would look at you like you got a dick growing out of your forehead if you couldn't take your hunting rifle and take a offhand shot at normal hunting distances. It was expected. And even he was using cartridges that provided flat shooting to give him the best odds of adequately hitting and killing.

I've yet been to a rimfire event where the walking or the stage movement remotely mimics even the lightest centerfire field matches.

How do you expect to take skills learned from this rimfire format over to a centerfire match if you can't even handle the light movement on the stages?

I honestly don't even know how this is even a topic of conversation. Since when as shooters have we strived to water down the skillset? If you can practice to deploy a tripod to defeat an obstacle. You can practice to make due when you don't have access to one.

 

[lash]

Well put!

 

[Jefe's Dope]

NRL22X match today. No offhand. I was ecstatic.

Edit: I've shot two field type matches that mimic centerfire last month. One was actually based off the centerfire we shot the following day.

 

[Starbuck]

Where wuz that match? Didn't see anything on the NRL-X website.....

 

[Jefe's Dope]

Where wuz that match? Didn't see anything on the NRL-X website.....

Ben Lomond in Ramah.

 

[Starbuck]

Ben Lomond in Ramah.

Didn't know that match stretched out the ranges, but pleased to hear that there was no offhand shooting!

 

[Jefe's Dope]

Didn't know that match stretched out the ranges, but pleased to hear that there was no offhand shooting!

500 was the farthest. The COF for that was 100, 200, 300, 400, 500. 1 round at 100, 2 rounds at 200, etc.

 

[lash]

500 was the farthest. The COF for that was 100, 200, 300, 400, 500. 1 round at 100, 2 rounds at 200, etc.

I like that idea for a stage and we have the room. Do you remember the target sizes at each distance and/or do you have a guess as to the total hit percentage on each distance?

Fwiw, and nobody asked, but we usually run most of our bonus stages out past 100 yards, but have not gone past 320 yards yet.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

I like that idea for a stage and we have the room. Do you remember the target sizes at each distance and/or do you have a guess as to the total hit percentage on each distance?

Fwiw, and nobody asked, but we usually run most of our bonus stages out past 100 yards, but have not gone past 320 yards yet.

The targets were fairly large actually and I don't know the hit %. It was a very difficult day with snow on the ground and wind going from dead to 10+ in an instant. The snow on the ground prevented seeing any misses. So without seeing misses and the wind switching constantly, we had a lot of fun. Spotters couldn't spot most misses in the snow. It was a wind readers match for sure.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Does that mean I hate scenarios that are hunting oriented? No....of course not.
Either way, hunting or tactical or purely competition your ass should be able to shoot your rifle passably unsupported as all those trades have examples of doing it.

And if you CHOOSE to build a rig your too weak adequately hold onto....how's that anybody else's fault but your own?

I know my father who does nothing but hunt would look at you like you got a dick growing out of your forehead if you couldn't take your hunting rifle and take a offhand shot at normal hunting distances. It was expected.

See, there's the problem.
Your Dad didn't think the problem through.

There's no way in hell you could make that shot with a dick growing out of your forehead.

Having a dick growing out of your forehead would also mean you've got a hairy-assed pair of balls hanging there, blocking your view.

That is, unless you're a eunich.