IBI Barrel #2

[Kisssofdeath]

Some of you already know about my 2nd IBI barrel and its oversize shank problem. Before starting a write up on it I wanted to get it to fit first. Now that that's done here we go. As usual I'll show a photo with dialog above it.

Here is the shank size as received. This is what I asked for but I couldn't make it fit.

Here is the final size and this works perfect.

Here is how much of the case is let sticking out after the bullet touches the rifling. This is a Winchester 52D chamber.

These next photos show a very rough feed ramp. I have asked Ryan how I should handle/fix this. It does shave some lead, doesn't jamb but shaves lead. I don't think the lead will ever smooth out those grooves.

Lead buildup.

Here you can see the the bullet damage.

More to come.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

I mentioned already about me thinking the receiver was egg shaped. I'm 99% positive this is a Tikka design. In the following photos you can see where a recessed area is. This area is located at the top location of the receiver and is intended to give the round barrel a 3 point contact. I pulled my barrel from my other Tikka and verified this. The three set screws are opposite of this recessed area.

Factory trigger with trigger shoe. Personally I like a wide trigger.

Here is the new "and improved" Night Stalker. Didn't have any 30mm rings so I robbed my S&B from my 1710 XLR. Hopefully tomorrow will be nice. Weather permitting I'll probably shoot 1,000 rounds tomorrow. It will be interesting to see how it shoot knowing the feed ramp is not optimal.

 

[kthomas]

Wow, I would expect a much more refined product then that. That's pretty poor looking

 

[Kisssofdeath]

Wow, I would expect a much more refined product then that. That's pretty poor looking

Yeah.

 

[Tomiboy]

KOD
I must have missed something. Was there something wrong with IBI #1?

 

[drglock]

I would probably take a dremmel tool with a cloth wheel and some flitz and polish the hell out of that ramp and see if you could smooth and slick it up.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

Tomiboy,
The 1st IBI barrel had a lot of play in the barrel/receiver fit. It shot phenomenal with Center-X but everything else was just ok. I thought the sloppiness in the fit was the reason. At that time I wasn't aware of the Tikka design and that a barrel with undersized shank would still be ok. The Tikka 3-point design will work with slightly undersized barrels. In reality, there was probably nothing wrong with the 1st barrel.

drglock,
I may try that or something else at the end of the day. Right now I have a huge urgency to shoot this rifle.

 

[littlepod]

I've spent like 2 hours at a gunsmith trying to polish and add a feed ramp onto my barrel. Tikka's push feed is just kind of meh. I think it's worth more effort doing the magazine modifications KoD to get it to feed horizontal instead of scraping the bottom.

My rounds though don't have any scraping anymore, but I get a ton of buildup at the feed ramp. Maybe it is super slightly skimming the lube or lead off. When I had no feed ramp at all, my action chamber was super clean. Not sure what the build up is being caused by. I don't see burn marks on my casings, but it does get pretty dirty after only 100-200 rounds. And that's probably why I get extraction issues now too with the tight chamber.

I'm going to see if I can get a differently reamed barrel. PTG Match looks like a pretty good reamer spec that if it is accurate should feed remarkably well.

The Win52D rifling where it starts as you see requires a bit of effort to feed the round. People used to the slow smooth slick feeding of a V22, definitely get caught up where the rifling starts because they have to push forward more and that can lose their sight picture in a competition. Might not matter if you're benchresting. Lengthenging "C" to be more like .617 of Eley EPS, might get it perfect to where the bolt starts camming, instead of having more horizontal push on the bolt to get it seated.

 

[AGrizz]

What you can do is remove the ridges that have been created in the feed ramp by what looks like a dremmel type tool. If you polish with a dremmel you will just keep the peaks and valleys that are there presently because you will be going in the same direction. You must go across these ridges at a 90 degree angle to remove the peaks to get rid of them.

I would do one of two things.

First, I would go to a hardware store and pick up a small ceramic knife sharpener. Open this thing up and take out the rods. They are normally in a V type form and have a small diameter ceramic rod about 1 1/2 inches long. They will fit the ramp fairly well.

Second, you could use a piece of 700 wet and dry emery paper from the hardware store. Wrap this around a small shaft of some type.

With either one of these place them on the feed ramp at the same angle as the feed ramp and draw them out. Do not push them in or you may damage the top of your chamber. It is critical that you go the same direction as the cartridge goes in order to get rid of the high points. The high points are across at 90 degrees and you want to get rid of these without loosing any base metal.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

I'll come back later for a comment and follow up. I shot 250 rounds today but the wind was to much for the good stuff to be shot. More to follow later.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

It was still an interesting day even though I didn't get to shoot anything for score. If one believes in breakin periods I guess the IBI barrel might be considered broke in. Setting the headspace was a challenge this time because I used the Forster .043 gauge but after that I shot CCI SV with their loooong bullet. I had a very hard time closing the bolt handle, I finally did away with using CCI SV. I'm going to check again but I believe I had the same issue with CCI SV in my Winchester 52D rifle. Big shoutout to AGrizz, I used his recommendation on the feed ramp and it improved the bullet scraping significantly. I still need to get a ceramic rod or other to get the rough texture out. But, my ridges are gone. I also check some rim thickness and found one interesting result see if you can pick it out.

Here is a before and after photo showing the bullet scraping. I know they are two different bullet types but still...

Earlier someone was asking about the Forster 22 Rim Headspace Gauge. Here it is, in use.

Rifle as shot today. I can happily report that extraction and ejection was perfect for the 250 rounds fired today. Hopefully next time I can include feeding.

Because I have 10 photos to show, the rim thickness measurements are in the reply below.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

See what catches your eye.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

Littlepod,

Does the Win 52D chamber give you so much trouble that it would make you want to change the chamber?

 

[littlepod]

Littlepod,

Does the Win 52D chamber give you so much trouble that it would make you want to change the chamber?

Ya. It shoots very great groups, but I'm probably going to choose something that starts rifling a little later. Eoddave got his with the Eley EPS reamer but had it also opened up a little bit more to help with extraction.

I'm still diagnosing my extraction issues... usually when shooting Pistol Match Special, it starts happening after about 110 rounds. I shot 150 rounds of Center-X and it didn't happen. My last match, it happened on the 22nd round, I had cleaned the chamber the night before the match, but during the match 22nd round, but I did recall that I dropped an ammo on the bench and there was a little humidity. I tried to wipe it off before loading the mag, maybe that was the round that ended up having an issue.

Things are just super tight, a bit too tight for matches.

I've e-mailed Ryan and see if he will swap the barrel with me, if not then I'll sell it off to someone who wants some tiny groups, it shoots .65moa with CX at 100 yards. And I'll see if I can get someone's factory barrel while I hold out for a V22 in May.

 

[AGrizz]

It appears you have a number of categories here for rim thickness

Eley Team .380
Eley Club .380
Eley at .385
Eley Force .385
Fiocchi Exacta win .395
RWS .420
Fed .420
SK Standard Plus .415
SK Rifle Match .420
SK Pistol King .420
SK Flat Nose .425
Lapua Center X .425
SK Flat Nose .425
SK Pistol Match .430
SK Pistol Match Spc .430

So you have about 4 different rim thicknesses with the single ELEY being the thinnest and SK being the thickest. With some of the better general shooters being in the .425 rim thickness area. The categories are .385, .420, .425, .430 what a large difference in the head space in a rifle.

You also have a variation of .385 to .430 which is about .045 variation. This would effect the ability of the rim to feed up the face of the bolt and " go under the extractor ". Which could also damage the cartridge as it feeds into the chamber. Plus if you have " sharp edges " on the feed ramp, chamber or extractor the cartridge could hang up slightly causing damage to the bullet or case.

Extraction could also become an issue should the extractor not go over the thick case rim and grip.

I personally will be checking my extractors and de-buring any sharp edges very slightly on the underside of my extractors.

These thickness differences could also have an effect on firing pin impact. Theoretically if you have a .385 rim in a .430 bolt head space you would have .045 of travel after the firing pin impacts. This in effect would deaden the impact of the pin. Which in turn could change the primer ignition in the case. Just Theory. Something to think about.

 

[barronian]

@Kisssofdeath very interesting rim thickness results - thanks!. good correlation with which ammo types work for me

 

[littlepod]

Question... a lot of people are using the headspace gauges, is there any reason why i can't just use a live round of center-x (assuming safety) and do the same headspacing? Or do I need to invest in these different headspace gauges.

 

[pazzo]

@AGrizz so what do you figure would be optimal round/rim thickness out of those @Kisssofdeath tested?

 

[Kisssofdeath]

Question... a lot of people are using the headspace gauges, is there any reason why i can't just use a live round of center-x (assuming safety) and do the same headspacing? Or do I need to invest in these different headspace gauges.

You can, and I have done that. Only thing I can say is you have to be extremely mindful about what you are going because your trigger will be exposed. I have Eley Match, Team and Target coming in two days. I will check those when they get here. In my mind this rim size on the Eley Edge is alarming. Also, I checked 3 rounds and it was exactly the same every time. I also verified my calipers were still at zero. If this is the case for all of the Eley I am just not going to know what to think about it. If anyone reading this has the opportunity to check their rim size for Eley "anything" please do so and post your results.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

It appears you have a number of categories here for rim thickness

Eley at .385
RWS .420
Fed .420
SK Rifle Match .420
SK Pistol King .420
SK Flat Nose .425
Lapua Center X .425
SK Flat Nose .425
SK Pistol Match .430
SK Standard Plus .430
SK Pistol Match Spc .430

So you have about 4 different rim thicknesses with the single ELEY being the thinnest and SK being the thickest. With some of the better general shooters being in the .425 rim thickness area. The categories are .385, .420, .425, .430 what a large difference in the head space in a rifle.

You also have a variation of .385 to .430 which is about .045 variation. This would effect the ability of the rim to feed up the face of the bolt and " go under the extractor ". Which could also damage the cartridge as it feeds into the chamber. Plus if you have " sharp edges " on the feed ramp, chamber or extractor the cartridge could hang up slightly causing damage to the bullet or case.

Extraction could also become an issue should the extractor not go over the thick case rim and grip.

I personally will be checking my extractors and de-buring any sharp edges very slightly on the underside of my extractors.

These thickness differences could also have an effect on firing pin impact. Theoretically if you have a .385 rim in a .430 bolt head space you would have .045 of travel after the firing pin impacts. This in effect would deaden the impact of the pin. Which in turn could change the primer ignition in the case. Just Theory. Something to think about.

I believe the excessive headspace caused by the Eley Edge would result in terrible accuracy if not adjusted for it. I may be wrong but that is such a huge difference. Does anyone know what the headspace limit is? I am going to check the entire box later and see what they all measure. This is eye opening and if anyone ever shot Eley and got bad results this may be why. I rarely ever check rim thickness but in this case where I have control over headspace on the IBI barrel I thought I would check to optimize it. Now I glad I did. I will be checking rim thickness from now on. Not sorting, just making sure it's .042 to .043".

 

[barronian]

@littlepod you can use an unfired cartridge and 'plastic gauge' to measure the headspace very accurately.

here is one source

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[AGrizz]

I believe due to all the variables in gun chambers of which seem to be endless. Chamber diameters, throat lengths and diameters, rifling changes and land angles, crowns. I would just find something that shoots and stay with that ammo. You could drive yourself to a mental breakdown searching for the perfect answer at this time.

There are differences in cases such as bullet pull from case tensions and thickness, materials and bullet heals, diameters and lubes.

Some guns like Eley others like RWS and still others love Lapua loaded SK or Lapua. Some believe this is due to head space others believe it is the lube. I believe the real answer is " I don't really know ". I will just try to get the ammo into the chamber with as little damage as possible and pull the trigger.

Would I like to play around? Certainly. But across a large industry like 22lr that is world wide and the number of different companies that are manufacturing. What would it take for them to change and work for accuracy?

I am just going to take the easy way out and shoot the best cartridges I can find for my weapons and leave it at that. If you want to experiment then by all means have at it. Me, I will find the best ammo and shoot as much as I can before the reaper shows up.

Things I like are the fact that we are on the right track with bullets that seat into the rifling, also the standards that are being chased in the head space.

In bench rest there have been experiments with about everything you can imagine. A few that stick with me are bullet jump into the rifling and twist rates. Should you have a chamber that has a throat diameter that is the same as the bullet and seated in the lands or should the bullet have .005 or .010 jump from the case? Twist rates, this is a short fat bullet should the twist be 1-16 or 1-14.5 or 1-10.2. Barrel length?

So many questions and so few answers at this time. Would you like everything to be standard? Not on your life. If it were we would have nothing to play with. Have to find another hobby like chasing women. I will stay with the guns they are far safer.

 

[AGrizz]

@AGrizz so what do you figure would be optimal round/rim thickness out of those @Kisssofdeath tested?

I really believe at this time you have to take a sample of different ammunition and try them in your rifle or pistol to find the one's that shoot the best. Also keep in mind that with large temperature changes there will be different accuracy ranges and ammunition. This is trial and error. Especially with the 22lr.

 

[AGrizz]

Kiss of Death is on a great track and if anyone will find answers I believe it will come from his experimentation. He is a good man.

 

[pazzo]

If anyone reading this has the opportunity to check their rim size for Eley "anything" please do so and post your results.

 

[CodeMonkey]

A few more data points...

 

[Kisssofdeath]

Kiss of Death is on a great track and if anyone will find answers I believe it will come from his experimentation. He is a good man.

Thanks. ?

One experiment I will try is shooting the Eley Edge "possibly other Eley" with the headspace set at .043" and then adjusting it for the actual rim thickness and shooting again. All my Eley Edge had the same rim thickness. My three different types of Eley will be here today.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

Pazzo, CodeMonkey

This is great information, thanks for checking and posting those rim thickness. Evidently Eley chooses to go with a thin rim. As mentioned above, I will shoot my Eley with different headspace distance just to see what happens. This should be very interesting.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

I got my new ammo measured and the following are the results. Eley is in line with everyone else's. I also bought RWS Super Pistol 250. The RWS has the largest variance of anything I have measured so far. I measured five RWS and three of everything else.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

Here is the RWS Super Pistol 250. Never shot this stuff.

 

[AGrizz]

Was the RWS Super Pistol 250 all from the same brick or lot?

 

[Kisssofdeath]

Was the RWS Super Pistol 250 all from the same brick or lot?

It was from the same box but all 5 boxes are the same lot #.

 

[AGrizz]

That may be the reason i am not able to get it to shoot very well.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

That may be the reason i am not able to get it to shoot very well.

Are you shooting RWS Super Pistol 250 or some other RWS?

 

[AGrizz]

I have tried the Geco, R50, R100 they are all RUAG products if I am not mistaken. I will have to check all the ones I still have and see if the ammunition is the same in the boxes. I have quit trying them because of accuracy issues. I get Federal 510 to shoot better.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

I believe so to, they do have the same head stamp.

 

[AGrizz]

I just checked a few of the boxes I have left and they are all running in the .040 to .041 occasional .043 so they should be good to go with an flier once in a while. Must be something else.

 

[AGrizz]

I had read somewhere else that Eley i believe has a number of test guns that they check the accuracy of the lots coming off the machines and grade the lots from these test guns and box them accordingly. There was an in-depth explanation of the grading system. I will try to find it again and post a connection here if I can find it.

The others may have a better system than this. I remember seeing something about Lapua possibly using their USA facility for testing ammunition lots to get feedback for new production and guns. To me that would be great. Should see some improvements on that front.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

That would be great if you found it. It would make for a good read.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

The images are not showing for me, how about anyone else?

 

[barronian]

not visible for me either

 

[AGrizz]

Sorry guys just did a copy paste and they were there a little while ago not certain how to get them to show. See if I can get the information another way.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

That's ok AGrizz, from what I take of it the rim thickness doesn't affect the accuracy???

 

[CodeMonkey]

More data...

 

[Kisssofdeath]

Last Sunday 19th, I shot 750 rounds testing the new IBI barrel with the Win 52D chamber. I didn't get a chance to photo and post because I had to make an emergency trip to VA the next morning. I got back home a few hours ago and just now catching up on things. For those of you who are familiar with my targets I shot 2 x 10 for 10 and 3 x 9 for 10 out of 15 different ammo.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

First off, thanks to everyone who has provided rim thickness data.

Now for the barrel report. This Win 52D chamber is very tight. It does make for rather difficult loading but the feed ramp is a contributing factor also and that can be fixed. Many rounds were difficult to chamber and when you see the word "hard" that is my way of reminding myself about that particular ammo. Accuracy wise I am impressed with the results. This barrel shoots much better overall than the first one. It is much more accurate with a larger variety of ammo. I believe the accuracy will only get better as I smooth out the feed ramp. The feed ramp did accumulate a build up of wax and lead but the bullet scraping is minimum but even so, after a few 100 rounds I still get build up.

Here are the results for ten different ammo shot on 1-19-20.

Remainder posted next.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

I won't be shooting this barrel again until I get the feed ramp polished to where I ge smooth loading.

Here are two photos showing the build up of wax and lead.

 

[drglock]

Holy cow, that’s some build up .

 

[littlepod]

That's what my build up looks like! I'll take a picture after the match I just did, ~110 rounds through it and I had cleaned it prior to the match.

The "hard" feeding for me is towards the end of the feed cycle. My polished feed ram helps a lot with the hump, but the angle of the bullet from the magazine still leaves a lot to be desired. I need a control-fed round! Or something fed more horizontal..maybe a mag tweak with some filing...

Did your old Eley EPS reamer rub/crush -

Of the bullet?

I extracted a live round after feeding, and that area is significantly marred by the tightness of the chamber, which could lead why it's so hard to close my bolt?

I'm losing too much time in matches due to losing my target due to hard feeding, so trying to figure out my next option...

 

[Kisssofdeath]

No, the first IBI barrel with the EPS chamber didn't even have a feed ramp cut and it fed better than this one. After having an actual Winchester 52D I never dreamed the bolt would be as hard as it is to close. It's a PITA for now but I like the results I'm getting.