Night Vision If I had $5k to spend on NV...

[mikefraz]

If I had $5k to spend on a NV setup (which I don’t yet, but that’s the end goal) and I wanted the most practical/best setup for my intended use, which option would you pick?

First, my use case/environment:
-Rural farm land all around me. I live in Indiana, I’m sure you can picture that in your head already. Not a lot of artificial ambient light that isn’t moon/stars.

-Purpose of this setup is for personal and property defense/SHTF/riot control(kidding, but seriously), with perhaps a little bit of pest control (we have coyotes pretty thick here). I’m not a hunter, we don’t have feral hogs. Most hunting seasons don’t allow hunting at night anyway.

I don’t see myself doing raids or kicking in doors. I’m not nor have I ever been in the military. Now with that all out of the way, I’m trying to figure out what setup would best serve me. What I’ve came up with is:

-PVS-24.
Kind of a turn key solution. Doesn’t need any other supporting gear other than an IR illuminator. Seems faster to don/doff as needed. Perhaps cheaper than helmet mounted setup all said and done. Would be used on a 12.5” 300 BLK (I shoot both supers and subs)mounted in front of a TA02 ACOG with an RMR on top. Max range is probably 200-300 yards.

-PVS-14. Thin Film, possibly Filmless WP.
Team Wendy EXFIL LTP bump
Norotos INVG w/ DDA
Surefire X400V

Buying both isn’t an option right now. If you could only recommend one option (open to other suggestions other than what I’ve mentioned, thermal perhaps?), which would you recommend and why?

Edit: If anyone is local to northern Indiana that would be open to letting me look through either of the setups mentioned in my post, I’d be eternally grateful. Long shot, I realize, but worth bringing up.

 

[jeffl838]

I don't know how I feel about donning night vision for property defense unless it's a walking dead or war situation. How far is your furthest shot gonna be?

If you're posting an hourly watch, you'd be better off with a rifle on a tripod with a rifle mounted thermal. But with that, you're gonna want at least two guards posted? The pulsar Thermions are affordable and aren't that bad. You can find used mk2's and patrol 300's within your budget.

If you're envisioning throwing on your helmet when you hear your door get kicked in... I'd prefer a flashlight on my rifle. Not for a tactical reason, being a sneaky boi might be better, but because I want to get into that fight asap and don't want to fuck with a helmet when potentially someone that knows the layout is trying to bum rush my room

 

[mikefraz]

I don't know how I feel about donning night vision for property defense unless it's a walking dead or war situation. How far is your furthest shot gonna be?

If you're posting an hourly watch, you'd be better off with a rifle on a tripod with a rifle mounted thermal. But with that, you're gonna want at least two guards posted? The pulsar Thermions are affordable and aren't that bad. You can find used mk2's and patrol 300's within your budget.

If you're envisioning throwing on your helmet when you hear your door get kicked in... I'd prefer a flashlight on my rifle. Not for a tactical reason, being a sneaky boi might be better, but because I want to get into that fight asap and don't want to fuck with a helmet when potentially someone that knows the layout is trying to bum rush my room

Thank you for the feedback. I’d like to clarify some of the points you brought up.
-I own a nice tripod setup already. Like you said, that kind of lends itself to the PVS-24.

-Mentioned in my post that 200-300 yards would be the absolute furthest I have access to shooting. My own property is less than 100 yards in length. My house is pretty far in from the road. Most of my property is front yard.

I’m open to thermal, but I’d prefer to not mess with my day time optics setup if possible. That’s why the clip-on PVS-24 was attractive to me. Not aware of many thermal clip-ons in my price range that are worth getting. Perhaps I’m wrong though.

Lastly, I fully agree with you on going to white light inside the home. I purposely left out in-home defense as a use case. I currently have a CD OWL on this rifle since it’s white light only at the moment.

 

[jeffl838]

I think if you shot with a pvs24 and a halo-lr side by side, you'd want the halo/reap/mk2 to the point where you'd consider setting up a dedicated night rifle. I used to think the same thing about the day optic (and there definitely is a pro), but now I see my thermal scope as more like an thermal aimpoint (which is perfect for 300m and in) if that makes sense

The advantage of i2 (like the 24, 30's, 27's, etc) is that you can illuminate and get some really fine resolution on the target, but it doesn't sound like you need that. If you want an i2 clip on, I'd check out the 27. What kind of day scope do you have?

 

[mikefraz]

I think if you shot with a pvs24 and a halo-lr side by side, you'd want the halo/reap/mk2 to the point where you'd consider setting up a dedicated night rifle. I used to think the same thing about the day optic (and there definitely is a pro), but now I see my thermal scope as more like an thermal aimpoint (which is perfect for 300m and in) if that makes sense

The advantage of i2 (like the 24, 30's, 27's, etc) is that you can illuminate and get some really fine resolution on the target, but it doesn't sound like you need that. If you want an i2 clip on, I'd check out the 27. What kind of day scope do you have?

Mentioned in the OP that I have a TA02 ACOG with an RMR on top. What would the PVS-27 gain me over the PVS-24? Seems heavier/bigger for not a whole lot of performance gain at 4x magnification.

My main issue with thermal is not being able to identify people.

 

[Josh1978]

@TheHorta
I thought you might have something to add to help the O.P. out.

If I had $5k to spend on a NV setup (which I don’t yet, but that’s the end goal) and I wanted the most practical/best setup for my intended use, which option would you pick?

First, my use case/environment:
-Rural farm land all around me. I live in Indiana, I’m sure you can picture that in your head already. Not a lot of artificial ambient light that isn’t moon/stars.

-Purpose of this setup is for personal and property defense/SHTF/riot control(kidding, but seriously), with perhaps a little bit of pest control (we have coyotes pretty thick here). I’m not a hunter, we don’t have feral hogs. Most hunting seasons don’t allow hunting at night anyway.

I don’t see myself doing raids or kicking in doors. I’m not nor have I ever been in the military. Now with that all out of the way, I’m trying to figure out what setup would best serve me. What I’ve came up with is:

-PVS-24.
Kind of a turn key solution. Doesn’t need any other supporting gear other than an IR illuminator. Seems faster to don/doff as needed. Perhaps cheaper than helmet mounted setup all said and done. Would be used on a 12.5” 300 BLK (I shoot both supers and subs)mounted in front of a TA02 ACOG with an RMR on top. Max range is probably 200-300 yards.

-PVS-14. Thin Film, possibly Filmless WP.
Team Wendy EXFIL LTP bump
Norotos INVG w/ DDA
Surefire X400V

Buying both isn’t an option right now. If you could only recommend one option (open to other suggestions other than what I’ve mentioned, thermal perhaps?), which would you recommend and why?

Edit: If anyone is local to northern Indiana that would be open to letting me look through either of the setups mentioned in my post, I’d be eternally grateful. Long shot, I realize, but worth bringing up.

 

[TNVC_Will]

It'll be over your budget but the N-Vision NOX 35mm is worth looking at.

It's head mountable and weapon mountable with crosshairs. Head mounted is much better for long term observation/scanning. If the mount holds zero which I'm sure it will, then you can take off your helmet and plop it on your gun. You'll have extra costs like the bridge or arm, helmet mount, helmet, etc.

 

[TheHorta]

A brand new >2600 FOM L3 WP PVS-14 sold on eBay yesterday for $2900.

You can get a cheap handheld AGM thermal spotter for <$1500.

That leaves $600 for cheap headgear and IR laser/illuminator setup. Not much, but doable.

I almost popped for the eBay PVS-14, mostly just to get the tube, but I need another tube/14 like I need more inches around my midsection.

Weapon-mounted anything as your first NOD/Thermal is a mistake 99% of the time. One many noobs make.

 

[Lowdown3]

$5K would just about get you into some BNVD Single gain dual tube sets with XLS tubes. Green Phosphor at $5495. right now.

 

[mikefraz]

$5K would just about get you into some BNVD Single gain dual tube sets with XLS tubes. Green Phosphor at $5495. right now.

Though that may be correct, that leaves zero money for helmet, mount, IR light/laser. It does look like a great deal, but will likely be out of my price range, if the price is even that low when I have the money.

 

[WillHugh]

Definitely start with something head mounted. Clipons are really cool, but if you're imagining some kind of social use then it would be pretty limiting - have to point your gun at anything you want to see, will need to use white light to move positions, etc.

$5k should be able to get you a nice pvs 14, a decent helmet setup, and a basic laser/ ir light. Plus, once you start using it you'll realize how cool it is to do non gun related things with nods (drive, hike around, look for animals).

 

[sheepdog697]

Where do you live in indiana? Im in NWI, and you can come check out some setups before you buy.

 

[sheepdog697]

If i had $5k this is what i would probably get

xls pvs14 from tnvc/night goggles ($2700)

NGI/PVS-14-XLS Gen. 3 Thin-Filmed White Phosphor MNVD (Elbit USA Tube)

The NGI/PVDS-14 is based on the U.S. Military standard. the PVS-14 can be mounted on helmets, behind weapon optics or be hand held.

www.nightgoggles.com

TW xfil bump helmet ($300)

EXFIL® LTP

The EXFIL® LTP (Lightweight, Tactical, Polymer) bump helmet provides impact protection for maritime environments and a stable, comfortable platform for mounting night vision and other accessories.

www.teamwendy.com

steiner D2 (you can usually find these for around $1100)

Steiner DBAL-D2 Class 1 IR Laser

Civilian-Legal, Multi-Function IR Laser - Dual Beam Aiming Laser

tnvc.com

Wilcox g24 ($400ish)(youll need a j arm too but should be able to find a used one cheap)

WILCOX | L4 G24 MOUNT

Wilcox leads the night vision goggle industry offering the G24 low profile breakaway mount, offering universal goggle mounting solutions.

nvincorporated.com

$500 towards a night vision class if this is your first time using them at all.

 

[sheepdog697]

A brand new >2600 FOM L3 WP PVS-14 sold on eBay yesterday for $2900.

You can get a cheap handheld AGM thermal spotter for <$1500.

That leaves $600 for cheap headgear and IR laser/illuminator setup. Not much, but doable.

I almost popped for the eBay PVS-14, mostly just to get the tube, but I need another tube/14 like I need more inches around my midsection.

Weapon-mounted anything as your first NOD/Thermal is a mistake 99% of the time. One many noobs make.

I agree with horta here as well. Weapon mounted night vision or thermal is REALLY SPECIFIC. The head mounted stuff just give you so many more options.

 

[CBDR]

As Horta pointed out going with a stand alone thermal unit may not best serve your mission. Hand held thermal to scan NV to shoot. Illuminator most cost effective Luna. At your price point it can be done. Enjoy the journey.

 

[CBDR]

Save yourself some coin. Do you really need to spend $ on a helmet, supporting mounting hardware then the NV? If its terrain your familiar with? Personally I set up and wait / camp out overnight. Wake up scan 360. Go back to sleep. Have a coffee & repeat.

 

[TheGerman]

I'm sure you know, but $5k isn't shit when it comes to nightvision. The good news is, you don't need 95% of the latest whizbang shit that is mostly questionable on improvment over some of the lesser/cheaper options.

There is a floor however like, stay away from ATN or anything made in fucking China or Belarus or whatever. You also don't need the latest super duper coke white phospher toaster strudle maker either.

To what you're looking for, a few things:

- Stay away from weaponmounted NV as far as thinking you'll put a PVS14 behind your aimpoint so you can passively aim. That's a good idea maybe 10% of the time, and 0% of that time is for moving around and/or any kind of defensive engagement. For a carbine, you want the NV on your head.

- Your basics for a carbine are nightvision and a laser/illuminator. You mentioned there isn't a lot of ambient light so there may be shadows/dark spots even with nightvision. This to me (even though I wasn't going to suggest them anyways) puts any civi level illuminator into the 'waste of fucking money' category. On a good day, anything outside of a MAWL with its FDA skirting phased whatever witchcraft, is literally going to be absolute shit tier.

- Don't get caught up with wanting to passively aim as this seems to be the 'new' thing people have somehow become aware of lately. Leave it to a dual setup and focus on aiming with the IR laser. Put a white light on your weapon (preferably with a lock out and/or a click tail switch you can activate with your weak hand thumb while still on the gun - NOT a tapeswitch). Wear the PVS14 over your non dominant eye (biggest mistake people make and this is (i think?) still taught in the .mil to those not doing any NV specific AIT). With the PVS14 over your non dominant eye, you're now not having to avoid banging shit around on the carbine while being able to take a good shooting posture. You'll see and aim with the illum/ laser, and if the light comes on (youre inside a structure, etc) you now just have your brain focus to your RDS in your dominant side eye without having to fuck around with anything or coming off the gun.

Here's what I suggest:

PVS14 - Look for a like new PVS14 with good US made tubes that can be found in the EE here and on AR15 for 2k at times. Aska ton of questions, get pictures, get the spec sheet, receipt, etc. There are a few people on here that can look at a few things and tell you if its GTG or not.

Laser - Grey market PEQ15 or if you don't care about the size, a PEQ2A. Again, ask a ton of questions and we can help steer you away from purchasing a stolen item; thats the largest risk with this. Otherwise, you'll spend roughly 2300 on a MAWL which I have mixed feelings about anyways. PEQ15 can be found for 1800-2kish. PEQ2A for 750-1k. The civi level stuff for 1200+ is literally a total waste of money.

Helmet - Don't drop money on a ballistic. Get a good bump helmet with an Ops Core rail on it and get 4D tactical pads for it. Wilcox shroud and whatever mount you like. Get a counterweight and you'd be well served to have a switchable IR/white light like Inforce makes on the helmet. Driving around in a UTV or something? Get the Smith Optics clear ballistic glasses with the bungee, and Ops Core rail 'hooks' to hook the bungee on. These are thin enough to be worn with the NV down and do not hinder viewing at all.

Then save up for a PVS30.

 

[Mortalpawn]

I would echo sheepdog697's advice above. A head mounted night vision is hard to beat for tactical use. A weapon mounted thermal (or NV) is great for hunting hogs/coyotes at distance, but has far too narrow a view for close in engagements. Get a PVS-14 helmet mounted on your non-dominant eye, and a laser-illuminator combo on your carbine for point and shoot aiming.

You need to think of a night vision setup in terms of a complete system. The PVS-14 tube is an important part of that system, but to really make it work you also need a bump helmet/head mount (Wendy Exfil/Wilcox as he mentions), a laser illuminator (DBAL-D2 - you need the laser/illuminator and NOT just a laser), and I would also add a white light (Streamlight/Surefire) as you always want the option to turn on the white light if you get lit up. Probably a TAPS (two button) switch to control the white/IR lights.

The entire system is somewhere in the $5K range depending on how much you put into the tube and various accessory options. You can certainly spend more but its hard to go much lower than that.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I'm sure you know, but $5k isn't shit when it comes to nightvision. The good news is, you don't need 95% of the latest whizbang shit that is mostly questionable on improvment over some of the lesser/cheaper options.

There is a floor however like, stay away from ATN or anything made in fucking China or Belarus or whatever. You also don't need the latest super duper coke white phospher toaster strudle maker either.

To what you're looking for, a few things:

- Stay away from weaponmounted NV as far as thinking you'll put a PVS14 behind your aimpoint so you can passively aim. That's a good idea maybe 10% of the time, and 0% of that time is for moving around and/or any kind of defensive engagement. For a carbine, you want the NV on your head.

- Your basics for a carbine are nightvision and a laser/illuminator. You mentioned there isn't a lot of ambient light so there may be shadows/dark spots even with nightvision. This to me (even though I wasn't going to suggest them anyways) puts any civi level illuminator into the 'waste of fucking money' category. On a good day, anything outside of a MAWL with its FDA skirting phased whatever witchcraft, is literally going to be absolute shit tier.

- Don't get caught up with wanting to passively aim as this seems to be the 'new' thing people have somehow become aware of lately. Leave it to a dual setup and focus on aiming with the IR laser. Put a white light on your weapon (preferably with a lock out and/or a click tail switch you can activate with your weak hand thumb while still on the gun - NOT a tapeswitch). Wear the PVS14 over your non dominant eye (biggest mistake people make and this is (i think?) still taught in the .mil to those not doing any NV specific AIT). With the PVS14 over your non dominant eye, you're now not having to avoid banging shit around on the carbine while being able to take a good shooting posture. You'll see and aim with the illum/ laser, and if the light comes on (youre inside a structure, etc) you now just have your brain focus to your RDS in your dominant side eye without having to fuck around with anything or coming off the gun.

Here's what I suggest:

PVS14 - Look for a like new PVS14 with good US made tubes that can be found in the EE here and on AR15 for 2k at times. Aska ton of questions, get pictures, get the spec sheet, receipt, etc. There are a few people on here that can look at a few things and tell you if its GTG or not.

Laser - Grey market PEQ15 or if you don't care about the size, a PEQ2A. Again, ask a ton of questions and we can help steer you away from purchasing a stolen item; thats the largest risk with this. Otherwise, you'll spend roughly 2300 on a MAWL which I have mixed feelings about anyways. PEQ15 can be found for 1800-2kish. PEQ2A for 750-1k. The civi level stuff for 1200+ is literally a total waste of money.

Helmet - Don't drop money on a ballistic. Get a good bump helmet with an Ops Core rail on it and get 4D tactical pads for it. Wilcox shroud and whatever mount you like. Get a counterweight and you'd be well served to have a switchable IR/white light like Inforce makes on the helmet. Driving around in a UTV or something? Get the Smith Optics clear ballistic glasses with the bungee, and Ops Core rail 'hooks' to hook the bungee on. These are thin enough to be worn with the NV down and do not hinder viewing at all.

Then save up for a PVS30.

@mikefraz Listen carefully to what the man is saying here. He knows what he's talking about for sure.

 

[aslrookie]

I would highly advise against a weapon mounted NV for first unit. The helmet mounted option is so much more versatile in every facet.

Look at it like a white light. Do you want your only white light to be on a rifle? Having to point your weapon at everything just to see?

Keep an eye out for deals especially with Black Friday coming up. I scored ANVIS 9 with a reputable company with quality tubes, mount and battery pack for $5k. You can always upgrade to a different housing later on which is what I’m doing now. The ANVIS 9 isn’t intended for ground use, but I’ve used them in the rain, winter and summer without issues.