If PRS had a "Walleye fishing tournament cheating scandal" what would it be?

[S3th]

If PRS had a "Walleye fishing tournament cheating scandal" what would it be?

My first thought would be someone using earbuds under their earpro to get wind and dope corrections from a third party.

 

[Olen_4504]

Someone editing/changing their scores on the tablet as a squad RO

Oh wait….

 

[Tortuga]

It already happened.
Cheating via Practiscore

 

[Rob01]

Already happened. Years back, a decade or so, a bunch were texting each other info for stages that were supposed to be blind and no coaching. Also the above. People will feel the need no matter the sport. Don't think it doesn't happen now.

 

[Simonsza1]

I think every match every stage is basically cheating. I shoot it so don’t get me wrong and love the sport but the give me wind, what did you do and what did you hold constant chatter that is non stop after every shooter is by far the lamest thing about the sport. If you had to gather your own intel and not cheat off of everyone else’s all day long the sport would be so much better imo. I sometimes just sit back and listen and it blows me away at how hard people work at stealing other peoples mistakes to improve there results. Kinda cheating I guess.

 

[Rob01]

I think every match every stage is basically cheating. I shoot it so don’t get me wrong and love the sport but the give me wind, what did you do and what did you hold constant chatter that is non stop after every shooter is by far the lamest thing about the sport. If you had to gather your own intel and not cheat off of everyone else’s all day long the sport would be so much better imo. I sometimes just sit back and listen and it blows me away at how hard people work at stealing other peoples mistakes to improve there results. Kinda cheating I guess.

No not really. Not on the clock so whatever you talk about off the clock is not "coaching" which would be cheating.

 

[anotherwannabe]

If PRS had a "Walleye fishing tournament cheating scandal" what would it be?

My first thought would be someone using earbuds under their earpro to get wind and dope corrections from a third party.

Ear buds under earpro? Why do you think amplified ears were invented….

It’s amazing what you can hear 10 feet behind the line after you just missed .3 left and didn’t see any dust signature.

I see it all the time and tell people to stfu. use hand signals if you want to confirm
with your buddies what you saw.

“but but there is no way they could hear me talking way back here”

I know I can hear it, but I’m sure I must be the only one

 

[MadDuner]

It already happened.
Cheating via Practiscore

Reading about how that type of cheating was discovered and handled makes me more interested in going to PRS matches in the future.

 

[M4orturnate]

I think every match every stage is basically cheating. I shoot it so don’t get me wrong and love the sport but the give me wind, what did you do and what did you hold constant chatter that is non stop after every shooter is by far the lamest thing about the sport. If you had to gather your own intel and not cheat off of everyone else’s all day long the sport would be so much better imo. I sometimes just sit back and listen and it blows me away at how hard people work at stealing other peoples mistakes to improve there results. Kinda cheating I guess.

The windcalling is such a small part of the game. You could literally call corrections for every shooter and most still wouldnt clean any stages

 

[308pirate]

I think every match every stage is basically cheating. I shoot it so don’t get me wrong and love the sport but the give me wind, what did you do and what did you hold constant chatter that is non stop after every shooter is by far the lamest thing about the sport. If you had to gather your own intel and not cheat off of everyone else’s all day long the sport would be so much better imo. I sometimes just sit back and listen and it blows me away at how hard people work at stealing other peoples mistakes to improve there results. Kinda cheating I guess.

LOLWUT? This has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard and it's clear you've never competed in any other shooting sport.

That's like saying USPSA competitors cheat because they can watch others before them run the stage and can pick up better stage plan ideas from them. Or that sporting clays shooters cheat because some get more views at a target while they wait than those who go earlier in the lineup.

 

[308pirate]

Range Officer Cheating Scandal in United States Practical Shooting Association - Gun Nuts Media

Long time USPSA RO Paul Hendrix caught doctoring shooter’s stage times, improved his friends’ stage times while adding time to other shooter’s scores. Paul Hendrix is a USPSA (United States Practical Shooting Association) Range Officer, and a competitor in the same sport. Before yesterday, no...

www.gunnuts.net

 

[babyguppy]

Someone editing/changing their scores on the tablet as a squad RO

Oh wait….

So... No mulligans in PRS?

 

[babyguppy]

Range Officer Cheating Scandal in United States Practical Shooting Association - Gun Nuts Media

Long time USPSA RO Paul Hendrix caught doctoring shooter’s stage times, improved his friends’ stage times while adding time to other shooter’s scores. Paul Hendrix is a USPSA (United States Practical Shooting Association) Range Officer, and a competitor in the same sport. Before yesterday, no...

www.gunnuts.net

reminds me of watching Russian Olympic downhill skiing. The start and stop clock.. ugg or scores in ice skating

 

[Entropicitis]

If PRS had a "Walleye fishing tournament cheating scandal" what would it be?

My first thought would be someone using earbuds under their earpro to get wind and dope corrections from a third party.

I RO'd an AG cup qualifier last year where people were coaching the shooter with Peyton Manning style calls. "Omaha" for come left for instance. I picked up pretty quick when I kept hearing the same people saying the same thing over and over. But if it was happening with me it was happening at every stage.

 

[Mormegil87]

I think every match every stage is basically cheating. I shoot it so don’t get me wrong and love the sport but the give me wind, what did you do and what did you hold constant chatter that is non stop after every shooter is by far the lamest thing about the sport. If you had to gather your own intel and not cheat off of everyone else’s all day long the sport would be so much better imo. I sometimes just sit back and listen and it blows me away at how hard people work at stealing other peoples mistakes to improve there results. Kinda cheating I guess.

Listening to other dudes wind calls as they come off the line is a good way to miss targets.

 

[LV Precision]

Sharing wind calls means basically nothing for people who are good at shooting. Midpack fallacy to think it makes a difference in how they’ll finish.

 

[Mormegil87]

Sharing wind calls means basically nothing for people who are good at shooting. Midpack fallacy to think it makes a difference in how they’ll finish.

Thank you!

 

[roostercogburn98]

Sharing wind calls means basically nothing for people who are good at shooting. Midpack fallacy to think it makes a difference in how they’ll finish.

Impact of the overhead information means nothing in the principle of it. Cheating is cheating. Reminds me of a course I went to once. Instructions said, “this is an individual assessment, we want to see how YOU perform, at no point are you to talk to another candidate”. During one of the exercises, they had cadre walking in the opposite direction of movement just waiting for people to say turn around your going the wrong way. As soon as they did, that person was yanked and sent home. Amazing how interpretations of the “rules” lead to issues somewhere along the line isn’t it.

 

[Mormegil87]

Impact of the overhead information means nothing in the principle of it. Cheating is cheating. Reminds me of a course I went to once. Instructions said, “this is an individual assessment, we want to see how YOU perform, at no point are you to talk to another candidate”. During one of the exercises, they had cadre walking in the opposite direction of movement just waiting for people to say turn around your going the wrong way. As soon as they did, that person was yanked and sent home. Amazing how interpretations of the “rules” lead to issues somewhere along the line isn’t it.

Are you saying that it's cheating to talk about the stage and wind calls off the clock?

 

[roostercogburn98]

Are you saying that it's cheating to talk about the stage and wind calls off the clock?

Your post never said off the clock

 

[LV Precision]

Impact of the overhead information means nothing in the principle of it. Cheating is cheating. Reminds me of a course I went to once. Instructions said, “this is an individual assessment, we want to see how YOU perform, at no point are you to talk to another candidate”. During one of the exercises, they had cadre walking in the opposite direction of movement just waiting for people to say turn around your going the wrong way. As soon as they did, that person was yanked and sent home. Amazing how interpretations of the “rules” lead to issues somewhere along the line isn’t it.

Lighten up Francis. This is a hobby, not selection. FYI, nice try trying to throw in a service story, but unfortunately lots of us were also in so it’s not very impressive.

 

[Mormegil87]

Your post never said off the clock

Fair enough.

So your point is that if a shooter overhears a wind call from behind the line, it should be construed as cheating?

 

[308pirate]

Fair enough.

So your point is that if a shooter overhears a wind call from behind the line, it should be construed as cheating?

Did he hear a side conversation not meant for him or did he hear something meant for him said in a volume that wouldn't attract attention but would be picked up by ear pro?

 

[roostercogburn98]

Fair enough.

So your point is that if a shooter overhears a wind call from behind the line, it should be construed as cheating?

That’s where the line is hazy it would seem. If the shooter overheard a conversation by accident then I could say no. If shooters were talking just loud enough for a buddy to hear, then sure. I guess the old saying of perception is reality comes to mind. Doesn’t really matter what I think, only what the match director or RO for they stage thinks.

In fairness of all, I’d imagine there would be a “no talk” line kind of like golf. If you want to chat about your run, or upcoming run then make sure you are far enough away from shooters on the line.

 

[roostercogburn98]

Lighten up Francis. This is a hobby, not selection. FYI, nice try trying to throw in a service story, but unfortunately lots of us were also in so it’s not very impressive.

Your interpretation was selection. Guess my interpretation of the rules about talking are spot on. It’s all in how the individual takes it

 

[308pirate]

Doesn’t really matter what I think, only what the match director or RO for they stage thinks.

That's not really how it works. Rules that are wide open to subjective interpretation (like the stuff you're talking about) are unenforceable.

There's a reason the USPSA rulebook is so detailed. A) A lot of effort was put into making it as objective as possible and B) There are many rules that were created to cover holes that shooters abused.

PRS, IDPA, NRL, and anything 2 and 3 gun haven't figured any of that out yet. The "intent" bullshit and MD discretion to make up shit as he goes are deal breakers.

 

[Mormegil87]

I think it would be pretty easy to tell if someone is giving corrections on the clock. They'd have to be on glass and have to call the correction before the next shot.

 

[roostercogburn98]

PRS, IDPA, NRL, and anything 2 and 3 gun haven't figured any of that out yet. The "intent" bullshit and MD discretion to make up shit as he goes are deal breakers.

Fair enough. My input view was from an alternate reality where men are men and their word is what it is. I am aware of the issues in the comp world and looking out for “my buddy”. Sad to say it is a thing and so accepted, as long as the top shooters stay on top.

 

[mikeshaw2]

That's not really how it works. Rules that are wide open to subjective interpretation (like the stuff you're talking about) are unenforceable.

There's a reason the USPSA rulebook is so detailed. A) A lot of effort was put into making it as objective as possible and B) There are many rules that were created to cover holes that shooters abused.

PRS, IDPA, NRL, and anything 2 and 3 gun haven't figured any of that out yet. The "intent" bullshit and MD discretion to make up shit as he goes are deal breakers.

So you're assuming that MDs are 'out to get someone' when that person steps up to the firing line? I get it that there are probably some ROs or MDs out there like that, but I haven't met one yet.

YRMV

M

 

[kmckinnon]

Somebody shooting magnetic bullets at steel targets.

 

[roostercogburn98]

So you're assuming that MDs are 'out to get someone' when that person steps up to the firing line? I get it that there are probably some ROs or MDs out there like that, but I haven't met one yet.

YRMV

M

Out to get is not maybe not what he was referring to. If you do some digging and reading, you will find many people that have had bad dealings with an RO and bending or flexing a stage, changing or allowing shooters to adapt the rules to their favor.

 

[mikeshaw2]

Out to get is not maybe not what he was referring to. If you do some digging and reading, you will find many people that have had bad dealings with an RO and bending or flexing a stage, changing or allowing shooters to adapt the rules to their favor.

I'm sure it happens, I just haven't seen it. There are always 'those guys' that want to win at any cost. Happens in every competitive endeavor.

M

 

[roostercogburn98]

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/co-prs-match.7119809/#post-10154904

I'm sure it happens, I just haven't seen it. There are always 'those guys' that want to win at any cost. Happens in every competitive endeavor.

M

At least a half dozen of more threads here. Just search “bad ro at prs”, “bad ro prs”.

I believe people in the industry refer to it as “gaming” though to avoid the “cheat” word

 

[Rob01]

Yup https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/co-prs-match.7119809/#post-10154904

At least a half dozen of more threads here. Just search “bad ro at prs”, “bad ro prs”.

I believe people in the industry refer to it as “gaming” though to avoid the “cheat” word

No. Gaming is trying to make the best out of a stage within the rules. Cheating is cheating. Totally different.

Talking loud so your buddy can hear corrections is cheating. Talking off the clock to buddy about wind is not. Clear enough?

 

[roostercogburn98]

Cheating is cheating. Totally different.

That’s the topic we are discussing I believe. What is considered cheating and what is not. Seems there is more than one opinion on that here in this thread.

 

[Rob01]

No there is inside the rules and cheating. No grey zone. It’s people assuming that talking about wind calls off the clock is cheating. It’s not. Well within rules. Just because they feel it’s cheating doesn’t make it so. Talking loud enough that your buddy hears it on the clock is coaching and is cheating. A warning one time and then a DQ. Simple.

 

[mikeshaw2]

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/co-prs-match.7119809/#post-10154904

At least a half dozen of more threads here. Just search “bad ro at prs”, “bad ro prs”.

I believe people in the industry refer to it as “gaming” though to avoid the “cheat” word

I'd say you can game a stage without actually cheating, but I can see where you're coming from

Had an RO at an IDPA match give me a procedurual. Shooting a CZ 75b means you have to start hammer down and start the stage DA. I was doing just that and he starts screaming about 'trigger!'

Confused the shit outta me 'cause this was stage 3/4 of 5/6 and I'd been doing the same thing (lowering the hammer gently with a round in the chamber) the whole match.. I would have loved to start the stage SA but that isn't the class I can shoot with that pistol.

That isn't quite what you're talking about, but like I said: I can see where you're coming from

That was the last IDPA match I shot.

M

 

[308pirate]

So you're assuming that MDs are 'out to get someone' when that person steps up to the firing line? I get it that there are probably some ROs or MDs out there like that, but I haven't met one yet.

YRMV

M

I'm not assuming anything. I simply won't participate in a sport where MDs can make up rules as they go.

Same as your IDPA episode. I can't take that bush league seriously

 

[308pirate]

I am aware of the issues in the comp world and looking out for “my buddy”. Sad to say it is a thing and so accepted, as long as the top shooters stay on top.

No, I'm pretty sure you don't speak for all shooting sports.

 

[Mormegil87]

That’s the topic we are discussing I believe. What is considered cheating and what is not. Seems there is more than one opinion on that here in this thread.

Please, point out the PRS rule that states a shooter can't speak to another shooter behind the line on the clock about wind, stage strategy or the size of the shit he just took in porta-potty. Helpful hint, you'll be looking for a long time because it doesn't exist.

 

[roostercogburn98]

Please, point out the PRS rule that states a shooter can't speak to another shooter behind the line

That’s the whole point of the last few posts. At what point is it considered cheating.

 

[Rob01]

At what point is it considered cheating.

When it breaks the rules. What is so hard to understand about that?

 

[LV Precision]

That’s the whole point of the last few posts. At what point is it considered cheating.

Do you even shoot 2 day PRS matches, or is this whining by someone who doesn’t even show up anyways?

 

[mikeshaw2]

When it breaks the rules. What is so hard to understand about that?

sounds like what they're kvetching about is the subjectivity of what constitutes cheating

I'm still trying to shoot my way out of DFL so it'll be a while before i have to worry about any of that

M

 

[roostercogburn98]

It's the little things that add up. When a new shooter shows up to a match for the first time and goes before the "Gamer", and then sees what happens after it is demoralizing to him or her and puts a bad taste in their mouth. But the stage brief said a Sling, he used a tall bipod ? This should be addressed on the shooter level. Many times you have a new Range Officer who doesn't want to be "That Guy" and guys see this, so they take advantage. Now a good competitor will help a new shooter to game the system, but really the fact of gaming is disrespectful to both the Range Officer and Match Director. Maybe as Match Directors we have set in stone stages and we have gamer stages ? Could be fun ..

Ok so there is still plenty of room to decipher cheating and gaming. From the words of the HMFIC.

 

[Rob01]

sounds like what they're kvetching about is the subjectivity of what constitutes cheating

I'm still trying to shoot my way out of DFL so it'll be a while before i have to worry about any of that

M

What constitutes cheating is breaking the rules. It's that simple.

 

[mikeshaw2]

I'm not assuming anything. I simply won't participate in a sport where MDs can make up rules as they go.

Same as your IDPA episode. I can't take that bush league seriously

That sounds like a self-defeating proposition.

I'd had other positive interactions with ROs till then. The inane rules of IDPA along with that RO interaction pushed me over the edge.

PRS style matches have so far been great. From gas gun to .22 matches, I haven't seen anything untoward. Like with anything YRMV

M

 

[Mormegil87]

What subjectivity?

Spotter on glass calls out "left point 3", "right half a target" or "Was that off the right" in a loud enough manner to benefit the shooter. That's cheating. It's pretty clearly so.

Two shooters discussing if they're going to start at point 5 or point 6 off the right edge, is totally legal and part of the game. However I would suggest discussing it in MPH and full value equivalents in stead of mils but to each their own.

 

[mikeshaw2]

What constitutes cheating is breaking the rules. It's that simple.

 

[Rob01]

Ok so there is still plenty of room to decipher cheating and gaming. From the words of the HMFIC.

No there isn't. If he used the wrong equipmwent then he gets a 0 for the stage. Simple. If the RO doesn;t have the nuts to do that then that is the problem. Cheating is breaking the rules.