Night Vision If you cant afford a pvs 14?

Jcl762

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Minuteman
May 29, 2018
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Hello all.. this is my first post so I am new to the forum, but I have spent a few days reading posts here.. Just wanted to introduce myself before I start posting. Ill cut to the chase..

So like the title says, im looking for a decent NVD but i cant spend $3500. Its not in my budget and not in my scope of a real need. I read the pvs14 buying tips thread and i completely understand that this is the kind of thing where you get what you pay for and thats that. All this makes sense to me.. However i am looking for a recommendation for something cheaper that would be the best choice for the money. Like for example lets say $1500 and under..

I dont want to buy a used device unless its from a reputable dealer who is able to warranty the product. And i would like the device to be as versatile as possible (weapon mounted/ helmet mounted).. I typically research everything I buy. I read reviews, compare specs, check requirements etc.. but this could go on forever seeing as how there is so much out there, and allot of junk. At this point i just want to be told what to buy. This would be for hobby use, i dont hunt, just pretty much for fun. But I'd still like expert advice on how to buy something decent to play with. Thank you.

So i state again: best option for NVD under $1500?
 
If you're referring to the echo, it's far from impressive.

You're going to get the same answer no matter how you ask it. The only thing in your price range that is going to be worth a damn and be helmet mountable is going to be a used PVS-14. Not sure why you're so against buying from a non dealer but that's your only option without some major sacrifices.
 
Other than finding a used one, source the parts yourself and send it to a reputable dealer that will put it together properly. The tube is the most expensive part, but if you look around here and there for one, someone that knows what they have and have taken pics of their tube working, where you can see the occlusions, you can do pretty well. Then when the money allows, or the bug hits hard, upgrade the tube.
 
As mentioned. You can get into something decent used but it won’t be from a dealer at that price. Keep in mind that the NV is only part of the cost. Mounts, etc are expensive for this stuff. You’ll quickly tack on an extra $300-$500 in extras.

Find a reputable member here in the for sale section and take a chance.
 
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I'd rather take my chances with a used unit than a used tube. At least with a unit you can get image pictures before purchase and then verify upon receiving that it's as adverstised. Sure you can still get hosed but at least you have some recourse and can find out the night you receive the unit if it's good or not.

If you buy a used tube and have someone else assemble it, you have no way of knowing if it's a good tube until you send it off and have now paid for labor to have it installed. The company you hire to perform this service isn't going to guarantee the used parts you furnished to work, nor should they. Then whenever this assembly happens down the road it can turn into a legal blame game.

Outside of buying a new tube from a dealer, I would not go that route.
 
There was someone on barfcom selling new L3 factory units for $2500 and they accepted CC too. I know it's $1K over your budget but it would be money well spent and I'm sure you'd quickly appreciate the investment.
 
I'd rather take my chances with a used unit than a used tube. At least with a unit you can get image pictures before purchase and then verify upon receiving that it's as adverstised. Sure you can still get hosed but at least you have some recourse and can find out the night you receive the unit if it's good or not.

If you buy a used tube and have someone else assemble it, you have no way of knowing if it's a good tube until you send it off and have now paid for labor to have it installed. The company you hire to perform this service isn't going to guarantee the used parts you furnished to work, nor should they. Then whenever this assembly happens down the road it can turn into a legal blame game.

Outside of buying a new tube from a dealer, I would not go that route.

You don't need the whole unit to light up the tube to verify it's in working order and to take pictures. A good joe here or at the other site who is trading up tubes and knows the history and where he got it goes a long way. Never purchase a tube without a 3-5 day inspection period where you can test what you have. I have done this several times, no issues at all. Sure, I take the hit if something doesn't work, that's the risk, but I can always send it back after I inspect it, so I know there won't be an issue when I send it in for assembly. It's all about options, some people are control freaks about components, and others don't care so it doesn't matter. In the end, if you can find a used unit, sure, but if you can't assembling your own is the next best option other than buying new.
 
I’ll go with the flashlight. If good units were available for 1500 why would anyone buy 3500 units?
This is the reply i was pretty much expecting.. my logic here is that maybe there was a specific unit that you guys would refer to people with the same criteria as what i mentioned in my first post.. by that same logic i find it hard to trust someone selling something that cost 2500-3500 new, for 1500 used. However i may consider spending the extra 1k and check out barfcom.
 
The answer is still no.

If you only have a $1500 budget then you don't have the budget to buy inferior crap and then have to sell at a huge loss when you realize your mistake. Buy once, cry once. Or stick to a flash light.
 
I’ll go with the flashlight. If good units were available for 1500 why would anyone buy 3500 units?

because they are just like the op and think that they can only get good shit from a dealer. ive bought 2 excellent condition 14's with omni7 pinnacle tubes in them both were less than $2k.

there are excellent units out there to be had for damn good prices if you simply know what to look for and ask about
 
because they are just like the op and think that they can only get good shit from a dealer.

It's not like a dealer is going to give any sort of a warranty or anything on a used unit beyond a few day inspection period anyway. That same used PVS-14 is also going to cost you $300-$500 more from a dealer because they have to make a profit too.
 
So it sounds like the general consensus is that its ok to purchase used.. i wasnt expecting that.

Yes, just make sure you get a pic of the image but most listings for them will have pics already. In a $1500 unit don't expect a perfect tube, it will likely have some spots and likely not be the absolute best tube but it will be better than anything else in that price range. There's also a good change it won't be auto gated or have manual gain. Just remember it's a $1500 unit so be reasonable and don't expect perfection.

If you increase your budget a bit you can get something very clean. I'd message Surgeon Shooter, he sells them periodically and may have something for you. Anything you get from him you can guarantee to be good to go.
 
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You may also want to consider a PVS-7 as well. You can get nice used ones for $1000-$1250 and you can get new ones as low as $1800 but they won't have manual gain or any special tube for that price. Used ones may have gain.

The downsides is that they aren't weapon mountable like a 14, so you will need a weapon mounted IR laser which I find much better than mounting a 14 anyway. The other downside at least for me is that they don't have depth perception quite like a 14, and it's a full goggle setup so the option of holding up a thermal monocular the other eye goes out the window.

I'd still rather have a PVS-14 and I'd still recommend spending the extra cash to get a new unit but it's another option for you to consider.
 
So as far as looking through the tube, what is unacceptable? I know you dont want blemishes near the zero area. Are black spots typical? If so how big are we talking? .030".... .100"? Feel free to get specific.
 
I’d second the comment about looking at a PVS7 or NYX7. I was in your same situation a while back. Didn’t have much to spend and just needed something to help me navigate at night while hunting, etc.

Found a used set of gen2+ ID goggles for around $1k and they’ve worked great for my purposes. Grab an IR laser and illuminator and you’re good to go.

Then you’ll decide to try out thermal and that’s a whole different ball game, haha.
 
That might be the best.. i mean my goal here is fun.. at night. How well can you shoot with a dot sight when wearing the pvs7?

Unless it's a pistol (not AR pistol) with a RDS with a NV setthing then you aren't going to. You need a weapon mounted IR laser that can be zero'd. Trying to look down a weapon mounted sight with any sort of helmet mounted NV sucks.

Either mounted IR laser or clip on NVD to fire.
 
By dot sight do you mean something like an aimpoint? It’s hard because you can’t get lined up behind the sight. You need an IR laser and then it’s really easy. But that’s going to run you around $300-$700 more including the illuminator

And this probably goes without saying but your red dot needs to have NV settings in order to use it anyway.
 
Unless it's a pistol (not AR pistol) with a RDS with a NV setthing then you aren't going to. You need a weapon mounted IR laser that can be zero'd. Trying to look down a weapon mounted sight with any sort of helmet mounted NV sucks.

Either mounted IR laser or clip on NVD to fire.

That came right before I hit send.

OP, I did fail to mention one thing. I started out like you with a $1k budget. That was several thousand dollars ago.... good luck, haha!
 
You're looking to shoot and navigate at night for cheap, it isn't going to happen man. Regardless of whether you go with a PVS-7 or used PVS-14 you're going to need a quality weapon mounted IR laser to fire at night. You're going to need a helmet or cap setup to wear the NV. You're going to have $3K minimum invested in this if you go the cheapest routes possible.

I'd suggest you doing some real research on both units and their effective uses, and go from there. You're blindly looking to purchase NV based on a price tag and you're going to make a mistake that will cost you more in the long run.

There is NO way of effectively moving and engaging at night that's cheap if we're talking NV and thermal. Nobody is going to give you the answer you want because it doesn't exist.
 
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I think you've given me several good answers that prove it does exist. Maybe just for used or a bit more money.

1500 was just for the nv itself. Im aware all the associated hardware can add to cost and i understand the product specs etc..
 
Get on the WTS forum here and on AR15; they have a NV specific one. You'll find PVS14s with ITT or OMNI tubes for $2k-2500 all the time. A little patience and you'll find one that fits what you want/need. Otherwise you're going to spend 1500 on garbage and play the woulda/coulda/shoulda game.

Fuck the PVS7. It has no depth perception and you won't have a separate eye free/your peripheral vision will be vastly limited. Don't worry about aiming down a RDS as it never works the way you think it will with all that shit hanging off the front of your head; plus real gangsters wear their PVS over their non-dominant eye anyways and aim with a laser. If I have to turn the lights on/use illumination, I can easily switch to the RDS with my free dominant eye at that point too.

Right now I have an Airframe with a bridge, PVS14 over non dominant eye and a FLIR Breach thermal over my right eye that is 95% of the time in the stowed position and a PEQ15 on the carbine. I'm getting an ANVIS9 setup this week sometime to mess around with, but I still think the single PVS14 over the non dominant eye with a weapon that has an IR laser is the go-to, do it all setup.
 
Shoot member surgeonshooter on here a pm. You may be surprised what he can come up with. He has several NOS tubes on hand ready to go in a housing that would likely be close to your budget. He won’t sell anything he won’t stand behind.
 
Shoot member surgeonshooter on here a pm. You may be surprised what he can come up with. He has several NOS tubes on hand ready to go in a housing that would likely be close to your budget. He won’t sell anything he won’t stand behind.
put an @ in front of sergeonshooter (@Surgeon_Shooter) and it will tag him so he sees the thread. just a tip that maybe the rest of us could benefit from.
 
I bought and subsequently sold a used PVS-14 a few years ago for $1800, which isn't too far from your price point. It was in great shape and the tube was almost perfect. Deals can be had - you just have to keep a sharp eye out for them. I would have kept the PVS-14, but I needed the money for other things at the time.
 
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Hello all.. this is my first post so I am new to the forum, but I have spent a few days reading posts here.. Just wanted to introduce myself before I start posting. Ill cut to the chase..

So like the title says, im looking for a decent NVD but i cant spend $3500. Its not in my budget and not in my scope of a real need. I read the pvs14 buying tips thread and i completely understand that this is the kind of thing where you get what you pay for and thats that. All this makes sense to me.. However i am looking for a recommendation for something cheaper that would be the best choice for the money. Like for example lets say $1500 and under..

I dont want to buy a used device unless its from a reputable dealer who is able to warranty the product. And i would like the device to be as versatile as possible (weapon mounted/ helmet mounted).. I typically research everything I buy. I read reviews, compare specs, check requirements etc.. but this could go on forever seeing as how there is so much out there, and allot of junk. At this point i just want to be told what to buy. This would be for hobby use, i dont hunt, just pretty much for fun. But I'd still like expert advice on how to buy something decent to play with. Thank you.

So i state again: best option for NVD under $1500?
Currently on the exchange

https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...v-light-2100-price-drop.6886813/#post-7069694
 
If you want weapons mount and helmet mount, then the advice you've been given is correct. If you are willing to go hand held (or crazy awkward head mount) then you can get Russian stuff, often sold by Bushnell, for very little. It isn't great stuff but it does work at night, and would let you experiment with some aspects of using nods at night for very little money.

As far as shooting with a carbine and nods, as mentioned, a laser unit is ideal. However, you don't need an expensive, NV specific model. any old daytime visible laser will work under nods and let you play. Not tactical, but very functional if no one is going to shoot back.

Also, you can use a single tube over your non dominant eye and run an aimpoint with your dominant eye. Its an old, less than ideal way of doing it, but many of us did that for many years before things like PEQ2's and then PEQ 15's became available. It works, you brain superimposes the image of the dot into your NV field of view. Again, not ideal, certainly not 2018 nightfighter, but functional to allow you to learn a bit and do some shooting. A TLR-2 or a Crimson Trace railmaster is probably the cheapest way to go with the visible laser.

I don't run single tubes any more but I did for years, and I did all the things I've mentioned, while under less than friendly circumstances. Not the worst way to get into NV and start learning. By the time you've exhausted everything there is to learn with those setups, 31's will be cheap and plentiful on the used market, and the newest hotness will be unobtanium.
 
Truth is, at $1500 new from a dealer, you’re at Russian Gen 2 stuff, and realistically toward the lower end. That’s not ideal. It’s not horrific end of the world, but it’s far from the best use of your money. The next step up new is going to be the better Gen 2 stuff, which is probably pushing you over $2k. It will be decent spec but still not be amazing in low light. You’ll probably want an IR light to go with it. Then you get into low spec Gen 3 or blemished tubes. This will be upper $2k to lower $3k. This is where it really gets good and from here it’s deminishing returns, though still probably worth it up to $4k. This is what most people will suggest.

Used, you can get a few different options in your budget with a little effort and knowledge. Get Gen 3. First, with a 10,000 hour life span, there’s probably plenty of tube life left. Even if you went out most nights for a couple hours, that’s decades of use. Most people don’t put 100 hours on a tube a year, let alone 1,000. Some will but most wont.

Second, don’t get something weapon mountable. I know, it seems like that’s ideal. For a lot of uses it is ideal. But a used PVS-14 is far more likely to have been mounted on a weapon than a PVS-7. Most 14’s aren’t meant for it and it can/will damage the tube over time. You’re much more likely to find a non-abused 7 used. I prefer the 14 but if I were to buy one used as my one and only on a budget, you’ll get more from the average 7. They bring a lower premium and are far less likely to be beat on. There are plenty of great condition used 14’s out there but they tend to be $500-$800 more than an equal spec/condition 7.

Last, make sure you can return it if it’s not what you want. This is were a reputable seller online or a dealer selling used is best. Make sure you have a policy that allows you to return if it’s a disappointment to you. Because let’s be honest, a lot of the low cost stuff is low cost for one reason or another. The 14 is popular enough that a quality example will pull quality price. The budget stuff is going to have things that aren’t ideal, be it an older tube, low specs, bigger blemishes, etc. This is why I like the 7 for a beginner. The lack of market interest in a biocular drops the used price significantly already so you can get a good one cheaper.

You won’t be using this behind a scope/red dot. Any of them. If you weapon mount it, you no longer have scanning capability. Think about it in the day. If you could only see the view through the red dot, it would be tough to find anything but a stationary target at a stationary range. If you want to do more than that, a head mounted solution is ideal. So an IR Laser to go on the rifle is a far more useful setup. The only time I’d be looking to weapon mount the Nv device is if I already had another to use to scan/navigate. As a one and only, shooting within the range of a laser sight is as good as it will get. You can add a 3x lens to a 14 or 7 to give a little more effective distance, but I would do that once in position as it will be very hard to navigate like that.
 
As others have said, if your price is fixed at $1,500, about your only option is going to be used, and you'll need to search for a good deal and jump on it quick--and there are a lot of land-mines in the used market for NVDs, you need to know what you're looking at and know the technical details pretty well to make sure you're not getting ripped off or overwhelmed by techno-babble that the seller is hoping that you simply won't understand and go with it.

That being said, if you know what you're looking for, you can do quite well, I'll be the first to admit that I've gotten some great deals on used gear, but I am/was familiar with the technology market before I tried buying used stuff, it's one of those unfair realities that the folks that usually get the best deals on used stuff are the people who already have enough knowledge and experience to not need to buy used stuff.

Now--if you're willing to increase your budget by a little bit, you may open up some more options, and there are some fairly competitively priced Gen. 2+ units if you can't swing the budget increase to go with a new Gen. 3 device.

Some key things that might be worth clarifying:

The PVS-7 and similar format goggles like the Armasight are what are referred to as "biocular" devices, they've still only got a single tube, but they use a splitter to project the image to two eyepieces, giving the "illusion" that you can see with both eyes, but really, you're seeing a single light amplified image in both eyes, so you still won't have any kind of depth perception or added situational awareness. The simple reality of biocular devices was that the military wanted to cut costs on night vision goggles, so moved from the dual-tube PVS-5 to the single-tube PVS-7, but wanted to "pretend" like they were still goggles. Pure cost-cutting measure, and arguably made sense at the time, given the cost of image intensifier tubes for infantry use the single tube was considered good enough.

At the same time, biocular devices pretty much weigh almost the same as a set of binoculars, are larger and more complex due to the splitter and associated hardware, more lenses, etc., with really none of the advantages of binoculars. This is why PVS-7s tend to sell for a lot cheaper than PVS-14s, especially on the used market, and why so many people are saying the PVS-7s suck. That being said, especially on the used market, they're often the cheapest way to get into a high-spec tube, so take that for what it is.

In the military, the PVS-7 has largely been replaced in front-line use by the PVS-14, a monocular night vision device (MNVD), which still uses a single tube (but different format) which is much lighter and much more versatile than the PVS-7.

Finally, a note on dominant versus non-dominant eye use of an MNVD, and the use of NV-compatible red dot sights.

The older paradigm is/was to use the MNVD over the non-dominant eye, and if necessary to use the day optic much like an occluded eye sight. This is the way I was taught coming up, and it is still a commonly taught TTP, a lot of guys did a lot of fighting running MNVDs like this for a lot of years in a lot of shitty places.

That being said, the paradigm has been shifting to the increased use of MNVDs over the dominant eye, and to use NV-compatible sights and "passive aiming." Some of this is driven by changing threat situations (it is no longer a given that U.S./coalition troops are the only ones with effective NV technology), some of this is driven by changes in other equipment/technologies, such as the increased use of red dot sights on pistols, and some of it is driven by physiological factors that have been brought into sharper focus by the almost universal use of binocular night vision devices (BNVDs) by those on the sharpest end of the spear--while a full explanation of all these factors is best left for another time, the point is that paradigms and TTPs for the use of optics, lasers, and NVDs has changed a bit. I know there will be a lot of folks who have done it another way who may protest my saying so and will want to argue, but as with anything else, TTPs are not static, and continue to evolve over time.

While the use of IR aiming lasers is still quite relevant and quite common, it's becoming increasingly common to use NV-compatible optics, particularly red dots in conjunction with dominant-eye mounted MNVDs or with BNVDs to engage targets without presenting an active IR signature. In many cases, the use of a riser or high-mount for the optic is recommended to make it easier to align the NVD with the optic. While this is far from universal, one need only look at the increasing proliferation of high-rise optics mounts like the KAC "Skyscraper" and 1.93" height mounts to see that it is becoming more common.

Nevertheless, no one is advocating for ditching IR aiming lasers and illuminators completely, IMHO, a good "24/7 rifle" has both an IR laser/illuminator and an NV compatible optic, as well as sidearm with an RDS, and users should train both active and passive aiming techniques. At the same time, if cost is a factor and/or you need to buy accessories incrementally, I can run a carbine with a head mounted NVD and a high-mounted NV-compatible RDS almost as easily and quickly as one with an IR laser, with more "crossover" between day/night engagement techniques, and if you were to ask me which to get first, the IR laser or a day/night sight, I would say a day/night sight with a good mount would give you more capability day/night than an IR laser alone.

~Augee
 
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Great info here guys. @TNVC_Augee , I'm LEO looking for my first pvs-14 for both personal use hunting hogs someday and for use on searches/perimeters at work. My current patrol rifle has an aimpoint pro in the factory mount, would I need to invest in a taller mount to use the rds/headmounted pvs-14 method you describe? Any chance you could pm me pricing on a decent 14? Thanks.
 
Great info here guys. @TNVC_Augee , I'm LEO looking for my first pvs-14 for both personal use hunting hogs someday and for use on searches/perimeters at work. My current patrol rifle has an aimpoint pro in the factory mount, would I need to invest in a taller mount to use the rds/headmounted pvs-14 method you describe? Any chance you could pm me pricing on a decent 14? Thanks.
Head mounted NV and red dot sights are no fun, doesn't work the way you think it will. You need a laser. I tried when I first got into it because I thought I knew better and could make it work. I got a laser.
 
I would do everything I can to avoid head mounted nv and weapon mounted sight. Head mounted and a rifle mounted laser or a weapon mounted NV work fine. You can try it, especially if you’re buying a helmet mounted setup anyways. I wouldn’t expect great and enjoyable results though.
 
See that is what I had always heard too, that it sucks trying to line them up and that an IR laser is much more effective. Seems that Augee is making the case that the pendulum is swinging back the other way a bit for multiple reasons, not the least of which is that not just the good guys have night vision.

Out of curiosity, when you guys tried it did you have your rds mounted high or "normal"? Curious if it makes that much difference.
 
Great info here guys. @TNVC_Augee , I'm LEO looking for my first pvs-14 for both personal use hunting hogs someday and for use on searches/perimeters at work. My current patrol rifle has an aimpoint pro in the factory mount, would I need to invest in a taller mount to use the rds/headmounted pvs-14 method you describe? Any chance you could pm me pricing on a decent 14? Thanks.

@verdugo60 Please shoot me a PM, and we can discuss what might make the best sense for you!

A higher mount is not necessary for all users, but most users find that it makes the use of passive aiming techniques far easier. Usually a minimum of 1.93", preferably 2"-2.5" from the top rail to the optic centerline--for comparison, you factory Aimpoint PRO mount is ~1.5" in the same dimension, and standard "Lower-1/3 Cowitness" mounts are ~1.7" In the last few years, more companies have been manufacturing taller mounts to accomplish this, but for many years, the "standard" method was to simply use a riser under the day optic, such as a standard 1/2" riser, or a LaRue 5/8" riser.

The reason for this, and the reason for the insistence that sighting through a red dot "doesn't work" is that with lower height mounts, most users are, whether or not they realize it, canting their heads at a downward angle relative to the rifle, and looking through the top of their eyes, rather than with their eyes centered. This is not an issue when shooting day sights, however, when you have several inches of NVD hanging in front of your face, it can become a big issue.

It is a technique that requires training for proficiency--so does use of an IR laser, but because this technique may potentially require the user to change some of the basic ways they configure and mount their weapon, it may require a longer learning curve, for user who are accustomed to the "traditional" nose to charging handle method of acquiring a sight picture (using ARs as the baseline here), they may find that they have to "scoot" their heads back a bit, and tilt their heads differently when acquiring their sight picture through their day sight, both day and night. And again, while some users can do it fine with "normal" height optics, most users report a (pardon the pun) night and day difference when using a taller optic.

"Don't even bother" has long been something that even a lot of experienced users have said over the years, myself included, and it's still obviously not unusual to still hear as evinced by this thread, but in the immortal words of Dylan, "The Times They are A-Changin'."

~Augee