PRS Talk If you DQ yourself, how do you claim to have won? Asking for a friend

[NLivingston]

maybe this will also be a wake up call to MDs using extremely unstable props for artificial difficulty

so let me get this straight

A shooter decides to bring an entire PRS gypsy camp worth of gear up to the line, (pumppillow, gamechanger, tripod, cooler, rifle), and is unable to manage it all. He drops his rifle, clearly breaking 180 and causing a safety issue, he doesnt call himself, the RO doesnt call it, nobody in the squad calls it, and the only wake up call you can pull out of this is MDs should pick their props better?

Im not trying to be argumentative but i am having alot of trouble understanding why youre not worried about this, am i crazy?

 

[Precision Underground]

this is a good example of why ranges stress bolt back while moving and bolt open until sights are on target

mag was in the gun, but bolt was back...safe as it could have been considering a rifle bouncing all over

maybe this will also be a wake up call to MDs using extremely unstable props for artificial difficulty

I'd say the fault is on the person who was trying to use a gamechanger, a tripod, a pump pillow, AND a friggin cooler to make himself shoot better. No wake up call needed for that? Serious question.

Heading to the line like...

 

[morganlamprecht]

ill lay it out so maybe it will make sense...

my squad...squad 6...shot this stage first...some of us used a tripod only, some used a bag only...it was terrible either way...wobbly, muzzle all over shooting from a chain suspended pipe in 15-20 mph winds...

i literally told a guy in my squad "if the RO doesnt police this stage strictly, before the end of the match, shooters will be bringing everything they can to brace that pipe from swinging..."

i saw it coming, because the prop was retarded...sure enough, 2nd squad comes up, and out come the ice chest, tripods, bags, etc etc....he wasnt the only one who shot it like this...he wasnt even the one who first brought out the ice chest, everyone for the rest of the match used the ice chest...he just happened to be the one to fumble it all

im not defending his approach...it was a bad choice trying to manage that much gear, but the reason it was ever an issue in the first place was the prop was a waste of ammo for most part shooting it otherwise

if i ever get to a stage and my first thought is "wow, id NEVER take a shot off this given any other option other than a bullet to the head..." its a bad stage...and pretty much everyone in my squad who shot it "as intended" agreed

 

[Rugster]

My thoughts in a nutshell:

1. The stability of the prop didn’t play a role in the rifle falling off. He put his folded bipod on top of the bag that was on the prop rung and when he leaned over to pick up another bag it rolled off while only supported by one hand.

2. If that happens in most other shooting sports where a hot weapon (or any) falls either out of a holster or out of a competitors immediate control, the stage is stopped. The shooter is not to retrieve it and is to wait for an RO to clear it and hand it back to the shooter. Almost always a match DQ.

3. In my opinion this was bound to happen eventually. This sport has grown so fast but does not (yet) have the universal ground work below it. The rule book has maybe a few paragraphs on safety, and to my knowledge nothing regarding how to handle a dropped weapon.

I don’t have a dog in the fight. I was just above mid pack at the finale. But this does set an interesting precedent that a dropped weapon is not a match ender in the current rules, although I believe that will change soon.

 

[leftyk82]

I see Morgan's point. Seems like another example of a "Practical" stage actually being Acrobatic.

 

[Mormegil87]

@morganlamprecht I shoot 2 PRS matches a year (SDSC and GAP Grind), a couple of Border Wars Matches and a handful of local matches.

I've seen the super strict, no tripods to the run what ya bring.

That's the problem. The governing bodies needs to create a standard, enforce the standard and apply it equally. Whether it's accurate or not, there is the perception that there are two classes in regards to the national matches. The Top 25ish and everyone else and the rules, in this case seemed to be applied as such.

 

[morganlamprecht]

My thoughts in a nutshell:

1. The stability of the prop didn’t play a role in the rifle falling off. He put his folded bipod on top of the bag that was on the prop rung and when he leaned over to pick up another bag it rolled off while only supported by one hand.

2. If that happens in most other shooting sports where a hot weapon (or any) falls either out of a holster or out of a competitors immediate control, the stage is stopped. The shooter is not to retrieve it and is to wait for an RO to clear it and hand it back to the shooter. Almost always a match DQ.

3. In my opinion this was bound to happen eventually. This sport has grown so fast but does not (yet) have the universal ground work below it. The rule book has maybe a few paragraphs on safety, and to my knowledge nothing regarding how to handle a dropped weapon.

I don’t have a dog in the fight. I was just above mid pack at the finale. But this does set an interesting precedent that a dropped weapon is not a match ender in the current rules, although I believe that will change soon.

there are already discussions being had about it (dropped weapon)...nothing final yet tho

changes will likely happen

 

[Nightraider]

ill lay it out so maybe it will make sense...

my squad...squad 6...shot this stage first...some of us used a tripod only, some used a bag only...it was terrible either way...wobbly, muzzle all over shooting from a chain suspended pipe in 15-20 mph winds...

i literally told a guy in my squad "if the RO doesnt police this stage strictly, before the end of the match, shooters will be bringing everything they can to brace that pipe from swinging..."

i saw it coming, because the prop was retarded...sure enough, 2nd squad comes up, and out come the ice chest, tripods, bags, etc etc....he wasnt the only one who shot it like this...he wasnt even the one who first brought out the ice chest...he just happened to be the one to fumble it all

im not defending his approach...it was a bad choice trying to manage that much gear, but the reason it was ever an issue in the first place was the prop was a waste of ammo for most part shooting it otherwise

if i ever get to a stage and my first thought is "wow, id NEVER take a shot off this given any other option other than a bullet to the head..." its a bad stage...and pretty much everyone in my squad who shot it "as intended" agreed

Half of the guys that shoot these stages think they're bad stages, if it was the stages fault where are the slew of complaints about that particular stage? I certainly haven't seen any, except this one instance? The shooter lost control, people were being buddy buddy and let it slide then got upset when the truth came out. Plain and simple.

NR

 

[morganlamprecht]

Half of the guys that shoot these stages think they're bad stages, if it was the stages fault where are the slew of complaints about that particular stage? I certainly haven't seen any, except this one instance? The shooter lost control, people were being buddy buddy and let it slide then got upset when the truth came out. Plain and simple.

NR

thats cause everyone else shot it with the ice chest so it wasnt half bad

you think everyone in the match used the ice chest because it was a good stage as written?

 

[morganlamprecht]

@morganlamprecht I shoot 2 PRS matches a year (SDSC and GAP Grind), a couple of Border Wars Matches and a handful of local matches.

I've seen the super strict, no tripods to the run what ya bring.

That's the problem. The governing bodies needs to create a standard, enforce the standard and apply it equally. Whether it's accurate or not, there is the perception that there are two classes in regards to the national matches. The Top 25ish and everyone else and the rules, in this case seemed to be applied as such.

i wont argue that....i didnt see the original video (given to the MD at the match) and i wasnt in the trio discussing it at the match so ill refrain from adding my opinion to the mix on that

the video that came out later after the match, was pretty cut and dry

 

[Nightraider]

thats cause everyone else shot it with the ice chest so it wasnt half bad

you think everyone in the match used the ice chest because it was a good stage as written?

No sir, they took advantage where you didn't and now it's a bad stage. We've shot very similar stages and they all suck, but dangerous or bad they were not. It's not the MD or the stages fault, period.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

maybe this will also be a wake up call to MDs using extremely unstable props for artificial difficulty

Or maybe a wakeup call for shooters to back off the gaming a bit. When it's to the point that you can't control your rifle from bouncing off the ground like that, it's going too far. I mean seriously, the point of the props are to give the shooter a challenge, not to make them think of ways to modify the prop itself and take the challenge away. Why don't we just take the props out to begin with, let everyone lay prone, and make the targets the same distance while we're at it? Ohh yeah that's right, that's called F-Class.

I was called out at the awards ceremony of one of the first Woodys matches years ago for gaming after I put my pack on that I had been using for the entire match to make myself more stable on a boat stage. Apparently that was extreme, but now pulling coolers out of our trucks to make a prop not do as it was intended is cool. Mind you though at the same match another shooter took a spring clamp out of the toolbox of his truck and put on a 45 degree 2/4 to basically just make a stop and that was ok.

Match directors need to have more balls and tell shooters no. RO's need to be given more clear instruction as to how the stages are designed to be shot. Shooters need to shoot stages as they were intended to, especially if it's becoming a safety issue to do so.

I mean are you really that great of a shooter if you can't shoot the stage as it was designed? Just saying...

 

[Nightraider]

The series director should have gone the shooter and said "I'm sorry that's a very clear violation, I have to revoke your trophy to keep things right", that didn't happen, old chaps being old chaps swept that stuff under the rug and tried to burn the house down to cover it up. Gypsy caravan and all.

 

[LH_Gina]

Half of the guys that shoot these stages think they're bad stages, if it was the stages fault where are the slew of complaints about that particular stage? I certainly haven't seen any, except this one instance?
NR

I don't think that's the case at all actually. A lot of us complained about the stage prop. Heck, I was complaining about the POTENTIAL of that particular prop being used well before anyone of us saw the match book. Then again, I was also threatening to find tannerite and sneak back to the range that night if they put a stupid floating platform in the match.

 

[samb300]

The question becomes: Is the stage design (prop) inherently so unsafe that rounds will impact outside of the berm area when the average shooter attempts to shoot?

If it's not unsafe, but it's just a really hard thing to shoot off of, then it's ok in my book as long as the same gear requirements are applied to all shooters. I've shot boat stages (which I wouldn't call unsafe) that have 1-2 mil wobbles when you're swinging. That shouldn't mean it's ok to wedge a backpack underneath the platform to prevent it from swinging. The whole point is to be on a swinging platform!

The mindset seems to be that stages need to be written in a way that prevents any and all gaming, but if not written that way then gaming is allowed. I don't think that makes sense or is even possible unless the entire COF has a statement that covers it (i.e. only 2 bags, 1 tripod are allowed, no outside props like coolers, vice grips, etc for ANY STAGE EVER).

I just thought of a great idea to game every rooftop stage since I've never seen it prohibited in any COF. Next match I'm going to stack cooler(s) underneath the back of the roof so that it becomes completely flat, then shoot it prone.

 

[morganlamprecht]

Or maybe a wakeup call for shooters to back off the gaming a bit. When it's to the point that you can't control your rifle from bouncing off the ground like that, it's going too far. I mean seriously, the point of the props are to give the shooter a challenge, not to make them think of ways to modify the prop itself and take the challenge away. Why don't we just take the props out to begin with, let everyone lay prone, and make the targets the same distance while we're at it? Ohh yeah that's right, that's called F-Class.

I was called out at the awards ceremony of one of the first Woodys matches years ago for gaming after I put my pack on that I had been using for the entire match to make myself more stable on a boat stage. Apparently that was extreme, but now pulling coolers out of our trucks to make a prop not do as it was intended is cool. Mind you though at the same match another shooter took a spring clamp out of the toolbox of his truck and put on a 45 degree 2/4 to basically just make a stop and that was ok.

Match directors need to have more balls and tell shooters no. RO's need to be given more clear instruction as to how the stages are designed to be shot. Shooters need to shoot stages as they were intended to, especially if it's becoming a safety issue to do so.

I mean are you really that great of a shooter if you can't shoot the stage as it was designed? Just saying...

i agree all the way...

like i said...i KNEW what would happen before the end of the match...but i wasnt going to be the guy in the first squad who gamed the stage for the whole field

im fine with using whatever a shooter carries...my pack with my tripod strapped to it go every where i go at a match

going back to the truck to get extra gear, and then it being left at the stage for the rest of the match to use to alter the prop is a bit out there

 

[morganlamprecht]

Match directors need to have more balls and tell shooters no. RO's need to be given more clear instruction as to how the stages are designed to be shot. Shooters need to shoot stages as they were intended to, especially if it's becoming a safety issue to do so.

this is the bottom line...ive RO'd plenty of matches...i would have never let that stage run that way without MD guidance or not

when you have inexperienced RO's or just guys who dont want to come off as a dick, they get taken advantage of

 

[morganlamprecht]

I just thought of a great idea to game every rooftop stage since I've never seen it prohibited in any COF. Next match I'm going to stack cooler(s) underneath the back of the roof so that it becomes completely flat, then shoot it prone.

our squad asked if we could stack a cooler under an awkward tire position on day 2 as a joke...of course we were told no on that one lol

 

[samb300]

our squad asked if we could stack a cooler under an awkward tire position on day 2 as a joke...of course we were told no on that one lol

I think my match gear list is now going to include a cooler, vice grips, trigger clamps, and a cordless saw. If I can't clamp something to a prop I might as well just cut it down!

 

[Lowlight]

The mindset to justify all this is,

The competitors against the MD, instead of competing against each other.

I am not making excuses for things that could and should fall to the MD, like having the balls to DQ someone, or to say no when the field of shooters attempts to manipulate the match in their favor, that is sort of the competitors job, but at the same time, since they have gotten away with it so long, it' s now a standard practice. They have completely lost control.

Doesn't matter how minor the majority may have been, but with this many DQs in a single event, something is wrong.

It's not innovative, or creative or particularly appealing to go back to a car to retrieve something like a cooler or big old wood clamps, etc. But since the rules say, "have at it", guys go as far as possible. There is no enforcement, there is no governing body standing up for the rules as written, its wide open under the guise of innovation.

The, No restrictions, Have it mentality is just shorthand for being lazy. We dont' want to have to enforce anything, so just let them do what they want. One they think it cuts down on complaining, and two they know the guys are gonna bully their way to a favorable decision, make it work for them. Why do you think the squads are quiet because it helps the competitor.

This was the finale, it's supposed to be the super bowl, the fact everyone I spoke to, said, most of the ROs were inexperienced is a problem. If the Series had 1/2 a brain they would have used competitors that did not make it to the finale. Either way, the entire process fell down. The system is so loose yet they claim to be the best of the best. Not seeing it.

I don't want to point a finger at any one individual as clearly it is a bigger problem. Every one of these guys knows the deal, knows someone pushing the rules past the point of no return, yet none of them speak up.

Write an Open letter to Shannon, ask to change things widespread for 2019 and get on this, it's no secret, everyone you talk to get it, but still, too many are hiding their face rather the publicly saying something because as a group nobody wants to admit the faults. You all are smart enough to bullet point a list of fixes.

The only people enjoying this are the dozen or so guys branding themselves successfully in all this, the rest are following the group in a single file line with heads straight hoping the next time their brand rises. Stand in line, say nothing and wait your turn. If things turn ugly, as the guy in front who to attack and how.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

this is the bottom line...ive RO'd plenty of matches...i would have never let that stage run that way without MD guidance or not

when you have inexperienced RO's or just guys who dont want to come off as a dick, they get taken advantage of

I vote that the asian guy at PNTC (don't know his name) is hired on to PRS as the official RO coach/selector. That guy is awesome, whatever stage he's running always runs super smooth, and there's ZERO fuckery. "This is the way you will shoot this stage, no questions" basically. He owns his stage and he runs it, he never has to radio to the MD to ask if a shooter is allowed to do this or that, he decides from the beginning that this is how this stage will be shot and every shooter attending shoots it the same way and with the original intent. If you want to do something outside of the guidelines, he'll let you do it, and then he won't call your hits because they don't count as you're not following the guidelines set forth. Match rules say that you MUST wear eye pro while shooting, he'll remind you of this during stage brief... want to ignore the rules and leave them on your hat anyway? Cool, you'll get to shoot the stage and you'll be seeing your impacts, but you won't be hearing them called or getting them scored because you were told that before the stage started.

He also doesn't give a fuck who you are, who your buddies are or anything else, every shooter is treated equally as they should be. Two years ago he didn't call hits for Shawn Wiseman because his foot was out of the box after the RO made it very clear at the stage brief that you and all your gear MUST be inside this box or your hits don't count, and Shawn was the PRS director at the time. I found it comical because him and several other shooters pushed the sandbags over so that they could basically lay prone and not shoot the stage as intended from a sitting or kneeling supported position and it backfired on one of them. There was a big stink about it, but the RO was right and the MD stood behind the call of his RO because he knew he made the right call.

PNTC asian guy is the kind of RO or just general leadership that the PRS needs more of. Balls, integrity, and zero bullshit. This is not to say that there's not currently some great staff in the PRS, I personally think that Paul, Mollie, and Ryan are awesome people and do a great job, but there is certainly some things that need changing even if that mean offending some shooters.

 

[morganlamprecht]

I don't want to point a finger at any one individual as clearly it is a bigger problem. Every one of these guys knows the deal, knows someone pushing the rules past the point of no return, yet none of them speak up.

a couple guys in my squad tried to talk with the MD halfway thru day 1 about the cooler stage...he said "it will probably be thrown out at the end of the match"

word got around that it might get thrown out, so then you had 140 shooters who used the ice chest complaining about the 15 who didnt, and it stayed

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I think my match gear list is now going to include a cooler, vice grips, nipple clamps, and a cordless saw. If I can't clamp something to a prop I might as well just cut it down!

Fixed it for you.

 

[Lowlight]

During the Wiseman days, I offered to do a video series on being an RO, ask me how that went.

Then when Brian got it, a similar gesture was made but I was told his company does a video for a living and he was gonna host a series of instructional videos, anybody has seen them, they are pretty cool.

 

[Sheldon N]

I shot that stage later in the day after lots of squads had already been there. By that point the RO's had donated the use of their own cooler to every squad who came through. Every single shooter I saw used the RO's cooler, except those first few squads. It was a bit of a circus having to manage that much gear in a 5 position 90 second two target stage, and I chose to not use a tripod because of that reason. With the cooler and just a gamechanger the stage was an ordinary barricade stage, several guys cleaned it or got 9/10 because it took all the wobble out. As far as it being a crazy stage that should never have been in the match, I personally didn't like it but I've shot off dumber and less stable props this season. Sure it's a low hit percentage shot but I wouldn't call it unsafe.

It was unfortunate that there were inexperienced RO's on that stage. The vast majority of RO's I know would have told a shooter that while there might not be any gear restrictions, you could only use the crap that you brought with you to the match and not go back to your truck to get a cooler, etc. Then the fact that the RO's donated their own cooler to every squad made it unfair to the first few squads who went through.

More importantly a good RO should have called "cease fire" at the moment the gun was dropped and it broke 180. Rules are clear, breaking 180 is a stage DQ. As far as the shooters around who saw it, I'm not sure I want to fault them too much. No one wants to be the guy who tattle-taled on the champ or who jumps up and intervenes with the RO to tell them to DQ him. Yes, safety is important but the unsafe condition was over and no one is arguing that this shooter was going around and doing unsafe things anywhere else, so it just becomes a case of arguing to get him a penalty.

The aftermath, while ugly, probably turned out how it should. Match director reviewed after day 1, only had one video which didn't clearly show that the rifle broke 180, and since it was inconclusive whether that rule was broken there was no stage DQ. There is no "dropped rifle rule" so you can't DQ on that alone.

Day 2 and awards were done, trophies handed out, then second video appears which shows that the rifle broke 180. I'd see that situation the same way you would in the NFL where the ref's missed a pass interference call and didn't throw the flag. Sure it might show up on video review, but it's too late at that point to penalize after the fact. If you hand out retroactive penalties you open a whole can of worms. Besides, the penalty of public shaming and an unofficial asterisk in the record books is more than enough in this situation.

IMO the take aways are to spend more time with RO's going over the full rule book, put more experienced RO's on the higher difficulty stages, add a "dropped rifle rule", and to officially chastise all of us for being internet drama queens who feed off rumors rather than just speaking plainly in the open with shooter/RO/MD.

 

[Nightraider]

and to officially chastise all of us for being internet drama queens who feed off rumors rather than just speaking plainly in the open with shooter/RO/MD.

While the chaps who were ROs might have been new, the veterans around them weren't. Tattle Tell or not everyone's an RO. This isn't about being disqualified, it's about what was done because what was right wasn't done. All the series director, not match director, had to do was say "I'm sorry, on further review, that was a foul and you aren't winning". That's it, but it wasn't it was the friends that turned the blind eye instead.

 

[morganlamprecht]

While the chaps who were ROs might have been new, the veterans around them weren't. Tattle Tell or not everyone's an RO. This isn't about being disqualified, it's about what was done because what was right wasn't done. All the series director, not match director, had to do was say "I'm sorry, on further review, that was a foul and you aren't winning". That's it, but it wasn't it was the friends that turned the blind eye instead.

write shannon and tell him you want it enforced then...put your name on it...because all the guys who actually spoke up and put their name on it, said they didnt

 

[redneckbmxer24]

That's it, but it wasn't it was the friends that turned the blind eye instead.

I'm not BFF's with Ryan by any means, but I know the guy and he knows me and I know him well enough to know that this IS NOT how he operates. Ryan is a stand up dude and IMO the best director the series has had.

Not trying to make excuses for him, but his hands are kinda tied here. I mean what would you do if you were actually in his position? You've got shooters covering it up and withholding evidence until after awards, RO's who don't have a fucking clue what they're doing or the balls to make a call, and then you're supposed to go around after the fact and do damage control? How?

Shit needs to change, and yes it starts with the leadership both overall and at matches. People need to not be afraid to offend others if it's for the greater good. The butthurt will get over it and the show will go on. If they don't get over it then they won't shoot and plenty of others will take their place.

If shooters can't do the right thing without being told to do so then unfortunately the rule book needs to get way bigger and MD's and RO's are going to start having to be dicks in the eyes of some because the shooters are going to try to take advantage of any situation otherwise.

It shouldn't be a free for all like Frank pointed out, and it never should have from the beginning. I put that fault on the PRS for not laying that out assertively to the MD's, the MD's as well for not enforcing it and being more descriptive in the courses of fire, as well as the shooters for gaming the system to try to gain an advantage over the other guy.

At the end of the day the PRS is still young, has growing pains to deal with now, and always will in the future. We all have to do our part to ensure that this series is successful or it will fail, it's a group effort from everyone involved. This isn't a stab at any one person, we all have to be better, and we all have to be fair to one another.

 

[Nightraider]

write shannon and tell him you want it enforced then...put your name on it...because all the guys who actually spoke up and put their name on it, said they didnt

I'll cast my ballot with my wallet, the series director made it very clear he'll not entertain anything other than congruent ideology. Which is sad, because while you may be hearing songs from the rooftops, the gutters are seething with disdain. The right thing wasn't done, the good old boys club lives on.

NR

 

[Nightraider]

I'm not BFF's with Ryan by any means, but I know the guy and he knows me and I know him well enough to know that this IS NOT how he operates. Ryan is a stand up dude and IMO the best director the series has had.

Not trying to make excuses for him, but his hands are kinda tied here. I mean what would you do if you were actually in his position? You've got shooters covering it up and withholding evidence until after awards, RO's who don't have a fucking clue what they're doing or the balls to make a call, and then you're supposed to go around after the fact and do damage control? How?

Shit needs to change, and yes it starts with the leadership both overall and at matches. People need to not be afraid to offend others if it's for the greater good. The butthurt will get over it and the show will go on. If they don't get over it then they won't shoot and plenty of others will take their place.

If shooters can't do the right thing without being told to do so then unfortunately the rule book needs to get way bigger and MD's and RO's are going to start having to be dicks in the eyes of some because the shooters are going to try to take advantage of any situation otherwise.

It shouldn't be a free for all like Frank pointed out, and it never should have from the beginning. I put that fault on the PRS for not laying that out assertively to the MD's, the MD's as well for not enforcing it and being more descriptive in the courses of fire, as well as the shooters for gaming the system to try to gain an advantage over the other guy.

At the end of the day the PRS is still young, has growing pains to deal with now, and always will in the future. We all have to do our part to ensure that this series is successful or it will fail, it's a group effort from everyone involved. This isn't a stab at any one person, we all have to be better, and we all have to be fair to one another.

Mr. Castle tried to do what was right, apparently he was overridden by the series director.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Mr. Castle tried to do what was right, apparently he was overridden by the series director.

I thought he was the series director? So who is then, and why the fuck isn't Ryan since he has backbone and integrity?

 

[morganlamprecht]

Mr. Castle tried to do what was right, apparently he was overridden by the series director.

no, after reviewing the initial video, castle, matt, and the ROs deemed to allow the stage to stand and shooter continue...matt tried to do what he felt right and take the stage DQ once the 2nd video came out when the match and awards were over...he even called the guy in 2nd to turn over the trophy, check, prize...and he was told No...the decision had already been done and the match was over

 

[Nightraider]

I thought he was the series director? So who is then, and why the fuck isn't Ryan since he has backbone and integrity?

The owner of the series, whoever that is currently.

 

[Nightraider]

no, after reviewing the initial video, castle, matt, and the ROs deemed to allow the stage to stand and shooter continue...matt tried to do what he felt right and take the stage DQ once the 2nd video came out when the match and awards were over...he even called the guy in 2nd to turn over the trophy, check, prize...and he was told No...the decision had already been done and the match was over

Yes, wouldn't you if irrefutable proof es presented? At that point if the shooter admitted he was wrong, end of story, no ahh thanks for being honest, after evidence was brought forward, here's first place. That makes it rubbish for everyone.

 

[osu92]

As far as the shooters around who saw it, I'm not sure I want to fault them too much. No one wants to be the guy who tattle-taled on the champ or who jumps up and intervenes with the RO to tell them to DQ him. Yes, safety is important but the unsafe condition was over and no one is arguing that this shooter was going around and doing unsafe things anywhere else, so it just becomes a case of arguing to get him a penalty.

Really? Seems to me if you witness something like this and know it's clearly a major rule violation, you're just a culpable if you keep quiet about it. As a very infrequent shooter, I would hope every shooter would have safety as one of their top priorities and wouldn't be afraid to speak up at any point when something hazardous occurs.

 

[Covertnoob5]

I think maybe there should be a couple things in place as far as general rules for every series match.

1) on stages that allow "any gear" it's limited to any gear you carry the whole match.

2) no going back to your car/camper/trailer/storage shed/etc. For any additional gear. Replacement parts are an exception (I.e. trigger, firing pin, scope, etc.)
This way there's no, "oh my bad I forgot my MK 1 tactical precision mobile cooler at the truck let me go grab it with my limited edition socom Home Depot dolly"

3) for the PRS finale, perhaps Shannon can work out a stipulation with sponsor companies so that sponsored shooters who didn't qualify for the finale should RO it. That way at least you have some pros/experienced people out there.

Just some thoughts from a guy that loves a sport even though I suck haha

ETA: maybe one day a company or 2 can also start to sponsor RO's. If you RO x amount of series matches a year and get good feedback from MD's you can apply for sponsorship. Then we have some "pro" referees.

 

[Lowlight]

A good number of rules in Pro Sports are there for SAFETY, NFL, NASCAR, etc, SAFETY is priority one.

Range Officers are there for SAFETY

If you need a Score Keeper then get a Score Keeper so the RO can focus on SAFETY

Sorry, everything there at the stage, from Matt to the other members to the RO knew what was up, the RO did not even react.

Even an upper leg hit with a RIFLE can kill someone from that close depending on the placement.

The rest is excuses to protect the series from the already bad press

 

[Tx_Aggie]

no, after reviewing the initial video, castle, matt, and the ROs deemed to allow the stage to stand and shooter continue...matt tried to do what he felt right and take the stage DQ once the 2nd video came out when the match and awards were over...he even called the guy in 2nd to turn over the trophy, check, prize...and he was told No...the decision had already been done and the match was over

If he wanted to do what was right, why did he continue shooting the stage after dropping the rifle?

He had to have known it broke the 180, as it was pointed back at the line when he picked it up (it's difficult to tell ,but it looks like he nearly steps in front of the muzzle when picking it up).

At that point the right thing to do is to call yourself out, even if the RO fails to call the sage for whatever reason. Instead it seems he went with the flow, hoping the match staff would ignore it or decide to give him a pass, only volunteering to give up the award once there was clear evidence of what (he had to already know) happened.

 

[morganlamprecht]

If he wanted to do what was right, why did he continue shooting the stage after dropping the rifle?

He had to have known it broke the 180, as it was pointed back at the line when he picked it up (it's difficult to tell ,but it looks like he nearly steps in front of the muzzle when picking it up).

At that point the right thing to do is to call yourself out, even if the RO fails to call the sage for whatever reason. Instead it seems he went with the flow, hoping the match staff would ignore it or decide to give him a pass, only volunteering to give up the award once there was clear evidence of what (he had to already know) happened.

That match staff and other squad members went along with it is shameful, and to me an even bigger indictment of the series culture than the behavior of the shooter.

everyone knows the right thing to do...fact is, aint many out there who do it given the chance though...go to a pistol or carbine match and watch for someone to break the 180 rule...see how many admit they did or are even aware they did in the first place

im not saying he did or didnt know...not my place, i aint in his head, thats on him...but what i DO KNOW, is in the heat of the stage and on the clock lots of fine details get lost

i was at a pistol match a couple weeks ago where a guy running a slung carbine stumbled...never lost control of his weapon and the RO DQ'd him for breaking the 180...he argued it and never admitted to it, because he wasnt even aware he did while running thru the stage focused on whatever he was focused on

while running club matches ill be on glass and see a round sent quite a bit off target and maybe even awkward cadence, and ill ask the shooter (not prs pros, just regular joes) if they meant to send that one...aint a single one said "no" yet, in 3 yrs...if im not watching directly behind them or looking thru their scope, its hard to call....i have stopped others who sent a round as soon as they closed the bolt and it was obvious they torched it early, but its not always that clear

 

[Tx_Aggie]

everyone knows the right thing to do...fact is, aint many out there who do it given the chance though...go to a pistol or carbine match and watch for someone to break the 180 rule...see how many admit they did or are even aware they did in the first place

im not saying he did or didnt know...not my place, i aint in his head, thats on him...but what i DO KNOW, is in the heat of the stage and on the clock lots of fine details get lost

i was at a pistol match a couple weeks ago where a guy running a slung carbine stumbled...never lost control of his weapon and the RO DQ'd him for breaking the 180...he argued it and never admitted to it, because he wasnt even aware he did while running thru the stage focused on whatever he was focused on

while running club matches ill be on glass and see a round sent quite a bit off target and maybe even awkward cadence, and ill ask the shooter (not prs pros, just regular joes) if they meant to send that one...aint a single one said "no" yet, in 3 yrs...if im not watching directly behind them or looking thru their scope, its hard to call....i have stopped others who sent a round as soon as they closed the bolt and it was obvious they torched it early, but its not always that clear

Fair enough. You make a lot of good points.

 

[Ksracer]

This kind of stuff won't happen in the A.R.S.
Everyone will be issued a match spec Yeti, and if your buddy gets hit by an ND, that's just a risk you to take when you participate in the manliest sport this side of curling!

 

[sstacllc]

I know the MD, Competitors and most of the staff involved with the entire weekend.
#1 This has been the most toxic drama filled year in Precision Rifle I have ever witnessed.
#2 I don't believe there was a cover up. The competitor was tuned into what he was doing, the RO was on glass, so where most of the competitors. There was a decision made done with the best intentions with the most accurate information available at the time.
#3 I trust my life to the MD and would do it again. He is an honorable man put in a really difficult position
#4 Equipment especially super light triggers causing NDs are an symptom of a greater issue. Proceeding in tandem with Free Recoil, Tripod for rear support and lots of other things and I believe that as a community are pushing the envelope on what we should use as a prop. My rule of thumb is if I wouldn't choose to shoot off of it when harvesting food or shooting bad guys it isn't practical. Ask me to shoot off of something stupid I'll use all of my tools to do the best I can.
#5 I think talking about this has some benefits and we can go forward with a better set of rules in the future but the tone of it right now is toxic and perpetuating the toxic waste solving nothing. Folks will dig in on both sides
#6 I wasn't there to see it, I was at the match, I would have gained a better trophy if the DQ stuck and I still think things are the way they should be. A decision was made Sunday morning the 2nd video didn't come out till we were all driving home. I don't think the timing was an accident.
#7 if the title of this post was "how do we make matches safer?" I would be jazzed to help out

 

[Bmorgan]

Wasn’t there so I won’t get into the debate but the second video basically was just to late to act on. The MD is as solid as they come and did what he thought was best based on the info he had at the time. Had it been handled correctly by the RO at the time, this wouldn’t even be a discussion. Frank, you know the challenges of getting experienced RO’s as good as anyone and unfortunately, there’s plenty that like to compete but very few willing to give back by RO’ing.

The discussion about the props is the one I hope continues. I miss the days of a good match without it being about who can build the weirdest contraption. I’m a fast shooter and enjoy a good speed stage but I like to take the time to make a solid wind call also, but there’s no time in some of these matches to do that. Precision rifle is different than what it was but fortunately there’s still some good matches out there to where the best shooter rises to the top and not the guy that games the best.

 

[shotdown]

Don’t blame the ROs . I know them personally, they brought it up, and provided the details to the MD. Whatever decision was made after that, did not come from the ROs. They did exactly what they were told, which was to let the MD handle any issues.

 

[Bmorgan]

Don’t blame the ROs . I know them personally, they brought it up, and provided the details to the MD. Whatever decision was made after that, did not come from the ROs. They did exactly what they were told, which was to let the MD handle any issues.

The MD didn’t even hear about it till the night after it had happened so obviously the RO didn’t make him aware. If anyone thinks there should have been a DQ based off the video, that should have happened immediately. The RO either made the decision to not DQ and so therefore it was handled and no further discussion needed then but my understanding was the RO never addressed it at the time.

 

[shotdown]

The MD didn’t even hear about it till the night after it had happened so obviously the RO didn’t make him aware. If anyone thinks there should have been a DQ based off the video, that should have happened immediately. The RO either made the decision to not DQ and so therefore it was handled and no further discussion needed then but my understanding was the RO never addressed it at the time.

Got you but I thought the shooter was DQ’d that night. Yet I saw him shooting the next day. As a matter of fact, I saw him post on FB that he was DQ’d.

Anyway, the match is over and there were mistakes. No one got hurt fortunately and yes, this should have been handled better.

Scott is definitely right. There has been so much toxic drama this year in the shooting community. It makes us sound like whiny little bitches unfortunately. I saw enough bitching at the Finale and now more in the forums.

 

[SikesB]

I had to fight endless robot verification to retrieve my login password for Snipers Hide to reply to this thread. Someone had sent this thread to me because I don't typically waste my time pretending to be a sniper from behind a keyboard on the internet. I actually manned up and earned that title. Though I agree with a couple comments within this thread, I find most of you to be ill informed wanna-be shooters that spend more time causing drama than pulling triggers & growing the sport. It reeks of jealousy, contempt and mis-information in here. Everyone who wasn't there seems to have a worldly opinion of what went down via second hand info & a video specifically designed to discredit a shooter and an organization after the fact. To those people, I say you're pussies. A lot of talk from people who aren't any different than a bunch of sorority sisters with their cycles all sync'd up. If you weren't there, you don't know. If you weren't an RO on that stage, you don't know. If you weren't in that squad, you don't know. If you weren't the MD, you don't know. Some of you don't even have the balls to run a match, the willingness to give up your time to RO or even shoot PRS matches so your opinions are absolutely and unequivocally worthless. Some of you say you've got nothing against the PRS but then take every opportunity to bash it. Just a bunch of democrat divisionists around here. A bukake club of Monday morning quarterbacks with too much time on your hands. Not that it matters but for what its worth, Im disappointed and have lost respect for some of those that I know on here.

Respectfully,
Sikes

P.S. Should you take offense to anything Ive said here, Im easy to find.

 

[Bmorgan]

Got you but I thought the shooter was DQ’d that night. Yet I saw him shooting the next day. As a matter of fact, I saw him post on FB that he was DQ’d.

Anyway, the match is over and there were mistakes. No one got hurt fortunately and yes, this should have been handled better.

Scott is definitely right. There has been so much toxic drama this year in the shooting community. It makes us sound like whiny little bitches unfortunately. I saw enough bitching at the Finale and now more in the forums.

No clue what went on that night. Wasn’t paying attention to any of it. Like I said earlier, it should have been handled by the RO “if it was an issue”. He didn’t say or do anything so as far as a competitor would be concerned, the shooter did what he understood to do which was to continue. This only came about, from my limited understanding, after day one. That put the MD and shooter in a tough spot but it seems to be handled so all is good. Those looking for reasons to complain will always find them. Shoot more, complain less, life is better.

 

[shotdown]

I had to fight endless robot verification to retrieve my login password for Snipers Hide to reply to this thread. Someone had sent this thread to me because I don't typically waste my time pretending to be a sniper from behind a keyboard on the internet. I actually manned up and earned that title. Though I agree with a couple comments within this thread, I find most of you to be ill informed wanna-be shooters that spend more time causing drama than pulling triggers & growing the sport. It reeks of jealousy, contempt and mis-information in here. Everyone who wasn't there seems to have a worldly opinion of what went down via second hand info & a video specifically designed to discredit a shooter and an organization after the fact. To those people, I say you're pussies. A lot of talk from people who aren't any different than a bunch of sorority sisters with their cycles all sync'd up. If you weren't there, you don't know. If you weren't an RO on that stage, you don't know. If you weren't in that squad, you don't know. If you weren't the MD, you don't know. Some of you don't even have the balls to run a match, the willingness to give up your time to RO or even shoot PRS matches so your opinions are absolutely and unequivocally worthless. Some of you say you've got nothing against the PRS but then take every opportunity to bash it. Just a bunch of democrat divisionists around here. A bukake club of Monday morning quarterbacks with too much time on your hands. Not that it matters but for what its worth, Im disappointed and have lost respect for some of those that I know on here.

Respectfully,
Sikes

P.S. Should you take offense to anything Ive said here, Im easy to find.

I vote for this as the best post to end the thread. Lol.

 

[Nightraider]

I had to fight endless robot verification to retrieve my login password for Snipers Hide to reply to this thread. Someone had sent this thread to me because I don't typically waste my time pretending to be a sniper from behind a keyboard on the internet. I actually manned up and earned that title. Though I agree with a couple comments within this thread, I find most of you to be ill informed wanna-be shooters that spend more time causing drama than pulling triggers & growing the sport. It reeks of jealousy, contempt and mis-information in here. Everyone who wasn't there seems to have a worldly opinion of what went down via second hand info & a video specifically designed to discredit a shooter and an organization after the fact. To those people, I say you're pussies. A lot of talk from people who aren't any different than a bunch of sorority sisters with their cycles all sync'd up. If you weren't there, you don't know. If you weren't an RO on that stage, you don't know. If you weren't in that squad, you don't know. If you weren't the MD, you don't know. Some of you don't even have the balls to run a match, the willingness to give up your time to RO or even shoot PRS matches so your opinions are absolutely and unequivocally worthless. Some of you say you've got nothing against the PRS but then take every opportunity to bash it. Just a bunch of democrat divisionists around here. A bukake club of Monday morning quarterbacks with too much time on your hands. Not that it matters but for what its worth, Im disappointed and have lost respect for some of those that I know on here.

Respectfully,
Sikes

P.S. Should you take offense to anything Ive said here, Im easy to find.

So in essence, you're part of the cool guy club looking out for your mate, smashing. That doesn't stop the reality that the video shows the facts. Truth is truth, name calling or not.