This seems a reasonable assessment of the industry.
In your opinion, of the rifle makers and rifle integrators, which fall into category 2?
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If you only had one large frame AR platform, at the $1k point....
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This seems a reasonable assessment of the industry.
In your opinion, of the rifle makers and rifle integrators, which fall into category 2?
Also, for the record, you won’t see me buying a large frame AR again. If you do, pay close attention to whatever it is because it would have to be that good to get me to invest in one again.
I panic-bought a Savage MSR-10 last year, which has the small frame, fluted barrel, adjustable gas, A5 RET, true free float tube, 2-stage trigger, chromed carrier, with the MOE furniture.
Looks like an AR-15 at a glance. I still haven’t shot it. A buddy of mine has one that shoots bug-holes out of the box.
I panic-bought a Savage MSR-10 last year, which has the small frame, fluted barrel, adjustable gas, A5 RET, true free float tube, 2-stage trigger, chromed carrier, with the MOE furniture.
Looks like an AR-15 at a glance. I still haven’t shot it. A buddy of mine has one that shoots bug-holes out of the box.
I just checked 1 minute ago. Aero does not have any complete rifles for sale. I have been looking for over a month now. Probably late to the party, as usual. Between the Covid crap and parts availability, it's been really hard on all concerned. When they do have them, there sale point is 1250+. They may have an occasional flash sale, but that usually offers just parts. Note that at 1250, the bolt is a standard bolt. Not a 9310 or small firing pin. Changing this out will add 300. Both of which you need to consider. I have a 2 year old Aero and that was the first thing I had problems with. Had primer piercing and cratering out of the box. Aero blamed it on my ammo and my ammo choice. But if you want this gun to go pew every time no matter your ammo choice, take note. My experience, your milage may vary. Keep em small
There is also another big category I should have mentioned:
3. Companies that have the budget to do pyramid testing
I’ve had pretty detailed conversations with product development managers and higher level employees from DPMS, Savage, and Daniel Defense just off the top of my head regarding pyramid testing.
If they aren’t a large corporate brand, it’s very difficult to afford to run pyramid testing, let alone find and hire the engineering staff that knows how to conduct it professionally and in a way that will yield a reliable product.
The ammo budget for pyramid testing is extremely expensive, as are the staffing salaries, instrumentation, and R&D segment of your manufacturing capacity to focus on product development while your existing staple lines are open and cranking product.
DPMS did extensive pyramid-testing on the GII, as did Savage on the MSR-10, as did DD on the DDV5. DPMS started with 10 prototype rifles and 100,000 rounds of 7.62x51 NATO ammunition.
Savage was part of the Vista Outdoors consortium, which included Federal, but that ammo budget had to be accounted and paid for in-between companies. One of the engineers said when he saw the bill for it, his eyes widened.
DD had all kinds of teething issues with the DDV5 because they elongated the cam pin path on the bolt carrier to keep the bolt locked longer, which changes the cyclic rate. They had to do it in a way that didn’t violate LMT’s enhanced carrier design with the conical retention protrusion to captivate the extractor pin on the bolt.
Smith & Wesson did extensive high volume testing on the M&P-10, which has a lot of its own unique parts as well.
For those of you who are saying the industry should have a standard, you’re basically asking one company to spend millions on the RDT&E, so the copycats can come in and duplicate that work without having to front the bill, then benefit from the proven design by undercutting the necessary price point with someone else’s design. This effectively bankrupts the innovator’s efforts, negating any incentive for them to do the work.
We’ve been spoiled by the AR-15 design because it has 65 years of mass production, continuous military PIPs, and roughly 40 years of knock-off companies who emerged from contract parts suppliers in the late 1970s and 1980s. The assembler vismod-15 companies also had the benefit of pretty detailed technical data from Armorer’s manuals and gauges if they wanted to use those, as well as armorer’s tools.
No such infrastructure exists for the large frame guns because they weren’t mass-adopted by the military. Companies wanting to meet demand in the civilian market have to learn all the hard lessons on their own, just like ArmaLite did in the 1950s, and KAC did from the late 1980s-present, and they had Stoner himself at the helm of the SR-25 project. Eagle Arms actually used an SR-25 to copy when they made the EA-10 and later ArmaLite Inc. AR-10.
For the budget-conscious consumer, I would look at those companies that did their due diligence with pyramid testing. DPMS is gone, so that leaves Savage, Smith & Wesson, and I would also mention the LaRue UU Kit, since they are SR-25 based.
you need to reread what I wrote and look back in this thread
I just found that ArmaLite still has the AR-10 16” Defensive Sporting Rifle MSRP at $1126. gun deals shows at least 2 available:
Next would be the Savage MSR-10 Hunter, which are available at several retail stores. GunZoneDeals has them for $1292:
Next would be the Smith & Wesson M&P-10 Sport for $1089:
With a little bit of searching, I was able to find some better deals on affordable but reputable AR-10s. I like the Savage’s features and the fact that it’s a small frame, but uses an AR-10 barrel extension and bolt face size, with more of an AR-15 sized carrier. Receiver set is only 5/8” longer than an AR-15. There’s a thread on here where someone was able to install an after-market barrel using a typical large frame barrel extension that dropped in. It already has a fluted barrel, adjustable gas, true free-float handguard with zero contact between the barrel nut and the HG, A5 RET, a great 2-stage trigger that feels like a Geissele, hard chromed carrier, and I think mine has dual ejectors. Will have to look, not that I care much.
I hope this helps.
Next would be the Savage MSR-10 Hunter, which are available at several retail stores. GunZoneDeals has them for $1292:
Next would be the Smith & Wesson M&P-10 Sport for $1089:
With a little bit of searching, I was able to find some better deals on affordable but reputable AR-10s. I like the Savage’s features and the fact that it’s a small frame, but uses an AR-10 barrel extension and bolt face size, with more of an AR-15 sized carrier. Receiver set is only 5/8” longer than an AR-15. There’s a thread on here where someone was able to install an after-market barrel using a typical large frame barrel extension that dropped in. It already has a fluted barrel, adjustable gas, true free-float handguard with zero contact between the barrel nut and the HG, A5 RET, a great 2-stage trigger that feels like a Geissele, hard chromed carrier, and I think mine has dual ejectors. Will have to look, not that I care much.
I hope this helps.
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Complete rifle $819.99 in stock as I post this.
I never said you bragged about the price of anything now did I? But you made it CLEAR you would never go for a poor's rifle.
And you are of course free to have that opinion of AR10s. However it doesn't mean it applies to anyone but yourself and what's this "we" stuff? Lots of people don't fall under your "we buy them because" reasoning. And lots of us could care less about the "resale value" of the guns we buy.
Some people do indeed hunt with an AR10 and 20rd mag, it's great for hogs. From the amount of pictures I have seen posted of people's kills on various forums, it also seems quite a few people hunt a variety of other game with them as well.
Who says a cheap rifle can't be a competition rifle? That totally depends on what the competition is.
Also .308 has been turning cover into concealment for 70 years and it makes a great defensive rifle out here in the boonies. Where we have things like bears, wolves, mt lions, etc as well as various 2-legged predators.
With an AR most of the accuracy potential is in the barrel and a few tweaks to receiver. So "IF" said cheap rifle doesn't shoot well, a few hundred dollars in parts/work and it can be a tack driver. For WELL less than the boutique brands. The fun of a cheap rifle is getting it to shoot as well as the look at me brands for way less money. So far, at least one of my cheap rifles seems to really like cheap Tula ammo and is shooting just over MOA with it. Which hardly sounds like a "boring, useless gun" to me.
We do agree on one thing though, I too would never go for a skinny 16" barrel on a .308 rifle. 18" is the minimum for me in that caliber (as on my PTR91s) and my AR10s are 20"s.
So OP, after all of this arguing what are you considering?
Or did you already buy something from the links provided?
Or did you already buy something from the links provided?
I own a Pof Rogue, have shot Colt 901 and AR10 base model.
I'd get a Sig 716 if price is acceptable. Next I'd get S&W..but i think their prices creeped up.
PSA/Aero seems reliable and accurate now, so that's an option too that would save money.
That's what I'd look at.
I'd get a Sig 716 if price is acceptable. Next I'd get S&W..but i think their prices creeped up.
PSA/Aero seems reliable and accurate now, so that's an option too that would save money.
That's what I'd look at.
Buy a factory gun from a reputable mfg. for your first large frame. It would be hard to beat a used Armalite, even if it’s a B series. Mags aren’t hard to find, usually in the $55 dollar range on gunbroker. Most used B series guns come with a few mags.
Your first sentence is VERY sound advice.
However the rest can be problematic. Buying a used gun means there is no guarantee it hasn't been messed with or have a problem the seller is tired of dealing with. There also might not be a factory warranty/support for a second (or more) owner so the buyer could be on their own for any issues..
When you find the Goldilocks AR10 that is reliable and in the $1000 price range, factor in any components that you might want to change- stock, grip, trigger, handguard. That could be more than $500 right there…
I was thinking similar thoughts like OP. I was reading up on the Sig this morning. But paused when I ran into the .308 vs. 7.62 NATO debate.
While not sure of the answer, Initial reading seems to indicate that a .308 chambered AR would support most 7.62 rounds but not vice-versa.
Yes, according to everything I've ever read, that's an accurate assessment of a .308 chamber vs 7.62 NATO chamber.
There are threads on here of people changing out those items on $1500+ guns.
Better to start with a cheaper rifle if you are wanting to do mods.
yup
this discussion is getting kinda funny with things like that and now people opining and not understanding that 7.62 chambers are not supportive of 308 rounds or at very least, will lead to reliability issues. I thought this was common knowledge here.
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...the .308Win chamber carries a higher PSI rating than most MIL 7.62x51 NATO chambers. Here's one source explaining the differences >>>
For chambers, I don’t care what is labeled on the barrel or receiver. I have to verify unless I specified the chambering with a competent smith, and then I still verify.
I don’t even let a barrel near the upper until I have run my dummy cartridges through the chamber to see where the rifling is. That also might mean factory ammo I plan to shoot. This is generally from a build perspective, but still applies to the new rifle. Trust but verify. Reamers are getting worn ragged and let through QC because of demand and crunch on supply for tooling for rifle manufacturers.
If I see any land engagement on a full chamber seat of the cartridge, that’s a red flag, especially if it won’t drop free.
For a beater, longer freebore is the norm. For one I want to be accurate, a more ideal throat is something I want usually for 175gr and longer. I used to shoot 155gr Lapua Scenars when we thought the BCs were correct, only to learn they were quite overstated. Still a great bullet that I competed and placed with, but I have spotted for so much 175gr SMK with its very known wind drift, that I like that or better.
The entry-level customer just looking for the best price they can get on a reliable AR-10 isn’t thinking on that level, but needs to know what ogives will chamber without jamming the lands.
I don’t even let a barrel near the upper until I have run my dummy cartridges through the chamber to see where the rifling is. That also might mean factory ammo I plan to shoot. This is generally from a build perspective, but still applies to the new rifle. Trust but verify. Reamers are getting worn ragged and let through QC because of demand and crunch on supply for tooling for rifle manufacturers.
If I see any land engagement on a full chamber seat of the cartridge, that’s a red flag, especially if it won’t drop free.
For a beater, longer freebore is the norm. For one I want to be accurate, a more ideal throat is something I want usually for 175gr and longer. I used to shoot 155gr Lapua Scenars when we thought the BCs were correct, only to learn they were quite overstated. Still a great bullet that I competed and placed with, but I have spotted for so much 175gr SMK with its very known wind drift, that I like that or better.
The entry-level customer just looking for the best price they can get on a reliable AR-10 isn’t thinking on that level, but needs to know what ogives will chamber without jamming the lands.
.....and most manufacturers of "off-the-shelf" high production level rifles will chamber them with a chamber/throat geometry that allows the most commonly available commercial ammo, typically ammo using tangent ogive bullets.
every thread about the SIG 716i always mentions, almost as a minor footnote, that they have to replace the trigger because the OEM SIG 716i trigger is crappier than the normal OEM crap trigger. Maybe it's to-spec for India Army standards, but otherwise it's just a placeholder ("insert your trigger here").
so realistically you ought to add that to the out-the-door cost, whether your go-to is a ALG-ACT, MBTS, G2SE, or HS-NM. add in that cost, for reality.
just an observation.
so realistically you ought to add that to the out-the-door cost, whether your go-to is a ALG-ACT, MBTS, G2SE, or HS-NM. add in that cost, for reality.
just an observation.
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"Every" and "always"?! Really?
Or maybe American shooters across the board prefer AfMark triggers in their ar15s and ar308s.
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Threads contain posts by people that bought one, and took the time and effort to make a post. it is a sort of random sampling. People are pleased with the gun, but also take the time and effort to mention the trigger.
I think I saw some posts that said 11-12 lbs trigger pull. I haven't seen a post that said 7 lb trigger pull with the SIG OEM trigger. There might be one, but I haven't seen it (yet?). and I'm certainly not all-seeing. but as I said, just my casual observation. your mileage may vary.
I don't own one, but it's interesting to read users comments about it. Some people prefer store-bought, others buy an upper and a lower and snap it together and call it a build. and then there's the folks that start off with a spare detent spring and go from there.
Since I'm kibitzing from the peanut gallery, I might as well mention, that I've also observed that a few folks who buy an Aero 308 complete upper, and an Aero 308 complete lower, snap it together and head out to the range with a box of M80 ball, sometimes they end up fine-tuning the gas/buffer/spring balance. Similarly with PSA. meh, not an insurmountable issue, but if it's your first AR-308, it certainly may seem daunting, and then you turn to the forums for guidance and advice. The folks with no problems right from the git-go, we probably never hear from them, the silent majority. we get the squeaky wheels.
Over the years I have owned a few large framed ARs.
Never built one, but have tinkered a bit with different stocks, barrel, triggers, etc.
Currently I own 3….2 POF Revolutions in .308 which are my hunting ARs, one of which started as a pistol which has now been stamped as an SBR. Both had teething issues from the get go which is kind of a known thing with POF that takes 80-150 rounds to break in/out. Both run great now fully suppressed. But these cost a bit above your budget.
I also own the Sig 716i. It is my fun/target/plinking AR. Swapped the trigger to a Larue before firing a shot. Yes it is that bad. But from a performance standpoint it runs and runs and runs. From 7.62 mil spec to Lake City reloads to 168 grain Sierra Matchkings it cycles and shoots great. Although the Matchkings are the only round on target you want to show off to your buddies
Even though it does not have an adjustable gas block, just for kicks and giggles, I stuck a suppressor on it and it still ran reliably.
All of the above being said, after going through this exercise of trying to find a budget and reliable AR10 a few times I can attest is is very difficult. The best option I have come up with is the aforementioned Sig 716i. I have seen it for as low as $1299 new, just remember to add another $80-whatever your limit for that trigger.
Good luck with the purchase. They are fun so long as you get one that runs!
Never built one, but have tinkered a bit with different stocks, barrel, triggers, etc.
Currently I own 3….2 POF Revolutions in .308 which are my hunting ARs, one of which started as a pistol which has now been stamped as an SBR. Both had teething issues from the get go which is kind of a known thing with POF that takes 80-150 rounds to break in/out. Both run great now fully suppressed. But these cost a bit above your budget.
I also own the Sig 716i. It is my fun/target/plinking AR. Swapped the trigger to a Larue before firing a shot. Yes it is that bad. But from a performance standpoint it runs and runs and runs. From 7.62 mil spec to Lake City reloads to 168 grain Sierra Matchkings it cycles and shoots great. Although the Matchkings are the only round on target you want to show off to your buddies
Even though it does not have an adjustable gas block, just for kicks and giggles, I stuck a suppressor on it and it still ran reliably. All of the above being said, after going through this exercise of trying to find a budget and reliable AR10 a few times I can attest is is very difficult. The best option I have come up with is the aforementioned Sig 716i. I have seen it for as low as $1299 new, just remember to add another $80-whatever your limit for that trigger.
Good luck with the purchase. They are fun so long as you get one that runs!
.....
...and when we do contribute our "successful" tips, it's with the full knowledge that there will be those who will dispute it and argue that it's BS and go to lengths to try and disprove it...
Op needs to just suk it up, sell a few organs (either his or the bum's who sleep in the back ally) on the dark web, then he can buy whatever he wants- problem solved 
Just an FYI, not associated with the company, yada yada. I have been a customer, good to go. Aim Surplus has Aero M5 lowers, cheapest has an M4gery looking stock at 314.49 and at least a couple of 18" .308 uppers for 548.24.
best way to go, buy the upper and lower separately and save on the tax. You most certainly can get a complete Aero this way for less than 1k. I've seen a few in the PX for less than a grand
Buying a brand new shit box factory gun is worse.
It’s easy to tell if a rifle is in factory configuration. Good companies will support their products for years. Support doesn’t mean a free maintenance/replacement plan for life. @Pappasniper (if he’s the same guy I’m thinking of) had a LMT MWS blow up. LMT helped him out but it wasn’t free.
The key to buying used is buying a factory gun from a company that knows how to build a large frame. I suggested Armalite since they’ve been building decent to really good AR10’s for decades and you can find used models in the $1k price range if you look around. Most people just don’t put many rounds through their large frames.
Someone can always piece a new budget blaster together. Maybe it will be trouble free. Maybe there will be another “Help” thread.
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It seems Ruger and some other shit box gun companies don't feel the same way. Perhaps the world of boutique ARs should get on board.
Factory condition...possibly but whether or not it has an issue ...not always until you get some rounds through it. Does Armalite provide warranty service on second owner rifles? Buying a used gun from even the most reputable brand is still a crapshoot. Perhaps the previous owner thought the way to reload was fill the case and stuff the bullet in to compress the powder. I have seen shooters who were proud of how HOT their reloads were. That "deal" could end up costing the buyer more than just the $1K.
If the rifle blew up due to a defect LMT damn well should have covered it. Now if it was operator error, a bad reload or defective factory ammo then yeah that's not on the rifle and thus immaterial to this conversation.
Accurate. Reliable. Cheap.
Pick two and live with the decision.
Scroll through the threads here, you’ll see the problem brands and builds. I never mentioned a boutique brand. Everybody wants a 1/2moa gasser that never chokes, never requires maintenance, with a Vortex Optics type warranty, for under $1k. Good luck in your search.
The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
Armalite isn't Armalite and hasn't been for years- it's a name that has been sold at least twice.
I'm not searching for anything. The OP is the one looking to buy.
Though I will say at least one of my PA10s is shooting just over moa with crap Tula ammo and has done so with zero malfunctions. So accurate, reliable and cheap in one package.
I just checked and it turns out Armalite (formerly Eagle Arms) is at least the third if not fourth owner of the name. One can't claim decades of consistent quality when we all know that QA/QC is very different for each ownership/management team of a manufacturing concern.
My intention was not to belittle or trigger you, but to point out that Armalite isn't the good example of "decades of quality" you think it is. For example, the years in the Philippines/ Elisco Corp. weren't great, and the years before Elisco were spent getting the design reliable.
The Eagle Arms/ArmaLite Inc. does have decades of consistent quality and accuracy they have produced, starting in 1996.
The original AR-10s at Fairchild ArmaLite were never mass-produced in the US, just tool room samples. The only ArmaLite licensed rifles of that late 1950s-early 1960s era were made by the Dutch, and those are amazing rifles really with workmanship not very common in the US.
The Eagle Arms effort in the 1990s was based on the success of the SR-25, so they copied the upper receiver group of the SR-25 in the critical working components and built a lower that would run on modified M-14 magazines, due to the Clinton/Feinstein/Biden Crime Bill with its AWB. That way they could feed it and support a customer base with the availability of USGI M-14 magazine bodies.
Other companies tried doing the same thing with G3 mags and failed, like CMMG.
An overlooked piece of history that I think most will find interesting regarding the AR-10 saga is the fact that ArmaLite Hollywood in the late 1950s had taken a lot of feedback on their sample AR-10s, which had been touring the world doing demos, and made a smaller frame, fine-tuned AR-10A. That was sold to Colt along with the Stoner patents and Colt immediately began tooling up to mass-produce that rifle. Most of this was happening in 1959.
This was the first true small frame AR-10:
The original AR-10s at Fairchild ArmaLite were never mass-produced in the US, just tool room samples. The only ArmaLite licensed rifles of that late 1950s-early 1960s era were made by the Dutch, and those are amazing rifles really with workmanship not very common in the US.
The Eagle Arms effort in the 1990s was based on the success of the SR-25, so they copied the upper receiver group of the SR-25 in the critical working components and built a lower that would run on modified M-14 magazines, due to the Clinton/Feinstein/Biden Crime Bill with its AWB. That way they could feed it and support a customer base with the availability of USGI M-14 magazine bodies.
Other companies tried doing the same thing with G3 mags and failed, like CMMG.
An overlooked piece of history that I think most will find interesting regarding the AR-10 saga is the fact that ArmaLite Hollywood in the late 1950s had taken a lot of feedback on their sample AR-10s, which had been touring the world doing demos, and made a smaller frame, fine-tuned AR-10A. That was sold to Colt along with the Stoner patents and Colt immediately began tooling up to mass-produce that rifle. Most of this was happening in 1959.
This was the first true small frame AR-10:
I could be mistaken but I’m pretty sure that during the Elisco years they were focused on AR18’s.
Karl Lewis and Jim Glazier started Eagle Arms. Westrom bought Eagle Arms.
Even if you discount the years before 1995 when Westrom bought Armalite, from 95-2011 is over a decade.
SAC bought Armalite 11 years ago, another decade. The forums aren’t full of “Help my Armalite doesn’t run” threads.
I’m not saying that they are the best. I’ve never even owned one. I do feel that they are better than the bargain bin large frames. They do have a history of building decent to good AR10’s.
No worries. I never felt belittled or triggered.
NVM, LRRPF52 beat me to it.
Karl Lewis and Jim Glazier started Eagle Arms. Westrom bought Eagle Arms.
Even if you discount the years before 1995 when Westrom bought Armalite, from 95-2011 is over a decade.
SAC bought Armalite 11 years ago, another decade. The forums aren’t full of “Help my Armalite doesn’t run” threads.
I’m not saying that they are the best. I’ve never even owned one. I do feel that they are better than the bargain bin large frames. They do have a history of building decent to good AR10’s.
No worries. I never felt belittled or triggered.
NVM, LRRPF52 beat me to it.
I grew up shooting my dads Armalite Ar-10 with a 24” bull barrel. Tack driver, love that thing.
Yup. Elisco Tool & Machine focused not on AR-10s, but on AR-15s/M16s:
Brief history of Elisco Tool & Machine
David Doerbeck worked with Karl Lewis on reverse-engineering the SR-25 to make the Eagle Arms EA-10.
ArmaLite Inc. used to have some detailed info about the development timeline, and specifically said they used the SR-25 when doing the initial design work for the EA-10 lower receiver with different mag well for the M14 mags.
Since ArmaLite Inc. was purchased by SAC, that info no longer shows up. ArmaLite Inc. was big on listing the history for many years during the Mark Westrom era.
...just a random bit of useless info...in my interactions with members of the Philippine Armed Forces in a past life, it is almost a "collective" reference to their issued rifles/carbines as "Armalites", the exception being the M14's...
I forgot SAC bought Armalite/Eagle Arms. I think they're the fifth owner of the name; The name certainly has a bit of historical panache and hence some perceived value.
LMT has been around a LONG time and they seem to have their QA/QC together. Colt under CZ should be fine.
LMT has been around a LONG time and they seem to have their QA/QC together. Colt under CZ should be fine.
Speaking if the Sig-716I had a chance to shoot it again.
5 Shot groups today prone off a bi pod @118 yard. 168HPBT 45.2 grains CFE223.
Not bad for a “battle rifle” and me driving it
5 Shot groups today prone off a bi pod @118 yard. 168HPBT 45.2 grains CFE223.
Not bad for a “battle rifle” and me driving it
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