Impact of going from 6.5 to 6

[werth338]

Been shooting PRS for about 18 months now. Running a 6.5 creedmoor due to availability at the time. Have another 6.5 creedmoor barrel chambered and ready to spin on. Been considering a 6mm variant and probably a 6GT. The 6.5 could be used for practice as have a quick barrel change option.

I get the the lower recoil and easier to spot impacts, misses, etc. I don’t know if it has been quantified. Any general thoughts on change in scores by going from 6.5 to a 6? I am working under the assumption that skills and everything is held constant. At end of day, I am trying to determine if it is worth all the money and time to make the change.

 

[werth338]

Not really money to burn. Actually in more of a cartridge/platform/reloading components consolidation mode. Was looking at 6GT for better barrel life than 6CM and still be able to use AICS mags. If only a couple of shots difference, it makes it hard to make the jump until current barrels are close to toast once stack in all the costs associated with the change.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

What’s your current impact %?

As in, what percentage of available impacts in the average match that you shoot…..do you impact?

And at those matches, what % of the winner’s score are you getting?


Rationale for the questions: depending on current skill, you may or may not benefit from a change. Also, if you make change at wrong time, you may make a short term increase, but stall out long term.

 

[werth338]

Great question and freely admit need to keep working on fundamentals and more reps.

I usually have some stages where I time out so 65ish percent impact on shots I pull the trigger and drops to 50-55 on impacts vs total points available. Winners are in the 90+ of impacts vs total with some just dropping just a few shots.

I don’t know that I expect to necessarily win but more to the point to be able to qualify for some year end shoots. I do this as I enjoy shooting and helps me prep for hunting which seems to be less all the time due to declining draw odds for tags but that is a whole other discussion.

I am planning to get some good instruction as part of the process to augment any other cartridge/ gear decisions.

 

[Alpine 338]

I shoot various calibers, and honestly, the 6.5x47L is my go to cartridge. If the match is a field style match (not a speed race, with 12-rounds in 90-sec, off of wobbly barricades) then I would shoot a 7-SAUM.

 

[Sheldon N]

I get the the lower recoil and easier to spot impacts, misses, etc. I don’t know if it has been quantified. Any general thoughts on change in scores by going from 6.5 to a 6? I am working under the assumption that skills and everything is held constant. At end of day, I am trying to determine if it is worth all the money and time to make the change.

Probably tough to quantify. Lots of factors that go into it IMO, so I don't think it's a "skills held constant" type of analysis.

If your recoil management is bad, a 6mm is going to be more forgiving to you than a 6.5 both in terms of spotting shots and underlying accuracy. The heavier the caliber, the higher the standard of fundamentals that you need to shoot it well. So for a really skilled shooter the performance difference might not be much (and maybe more about ballistics than spotting hits/misses), but for a mid-level or beginner shooter the 6mm will be more forgiving. If you flinch or are punchy on the trigger, shooting a lower recoiling caliber may mitigate that tendency as well. All these could potentially "buy points" by making the switch.

Does that work towards your goal of making you a better shooter? Maybe or maybe not, depending on how you tackle other aspects of your training.

 

[The4GunGuy]

I went from 6.5 CM to 6mm BRA and am loving it. Everything that's been said above is true...Less recoil, able to get back on target after the shot (which is HUGE on a timed stage), etc... From a monetary standpoint, I'm using 29.4 grains of H4895 instead of 41.7 grains of H4350, so there's that. Everything else is about the same cost. Two other things 1) DON'T GO FOR SPEED! My load gets me 2,840 FPS which the bullet loves (Sierra 107gr MatchKing) and my BRA barrel will last much longer than that GT...Many have gone to the Dasher as well for the same barrel life extension reason. Now, if you go GT, then perhaps lowering that velocity from the 3,000 fps everyone brags on will most likely add life to the barrel as well, not sure.

I feel more confident in my shooting with the BRA now and it is showing on my scores...Well, when I don't make the stupid mistakes!

 

[jmornoinf]

6.5 CM and 6 CM are both great calibers. If cost is no object, I would shoot 6 CM. It's great for all of the reasons already stated. It enabled me to go from top 10 to winning competitions. My speed is a tad high at 3150 but it works if you don't mind swapping out barrels every 1200rds.

Also, I would stick with 105gn Bergers for a projectile(this is the gold standard and remains so even with the advent of the 109gr). I tested and competed with 110 ATIPs, 115 DTACs, and 109 Berger and found my best results with the 105s.

 

[werth338]

I went from 6.5 CM to 6mm BRA and am loving it. Everything that's been said above is true...Less recoil, able to get back on target after the shot (which is HUGE on a timed stage), etc... From a monetary standpoint, I'm using 29.4 grains of H4895 instead of 41.7 grains of H4350, so there's that. Everything else is about the same cost. Two other things 1) DON'T GO FOR SPEED! My load gets me 2,840 FPS which the bullet loves (Sierra 107gr MatchKing) and my BRA barrel will last much longer than that GT...Many have gone to the Dasher as well for the same barrel life extension reason. Now, if you go GT, then perhaps lowering that velocity from the 3,000 fps everyone brags on will most likely add life to the barrel as well, not sure.

I feel more confident in my shooting with the BRA now and it is showing on my scores...Well, when I don't make the stupid mistakes!

Thanks for the insight. What kind of barrel life are you seeing with 6 BRA

 

[Darkside-Six]

So I was in the exact same scenario at the end of 2019. Had been competing with 6.5 CM and was at the end of my barrel so wanted to try and make the move to 6mm. My original plan was 6CM but after some research and talking with a few others I decided in 6GT. My main concern was barrel life, and that I didn’t want to have to worry about feeding issues or fire forming brass. I can say I’ve never been happier than with my 6GT just for the ease of load development and the barrels life. Depending on how your fundamentals are will determine just how much difference it makes. But it is a noticeable difference as far as recoil and bullet trace.

Not sure what rifle you have but I’m running an AI so it also has quick barrel change and I use the 6.5 for practice for the added recoil and then the GT at matches.

 

[werth338]

So I was in the exact same scenario at the end of 2019. Had been competing with 6.5 CM and was at the end of my barrel so wanted to try and make the move to 6mm. My original plan was 6CM but after some research and talking with a few others I decided in 6GT. My main concern was barrel life, and that I didn’t want to have to worry about feeding issues or fire forming brass. I can say I’ve never been happier than with my 6GT just for the ease of load development and the barrels life. Depending on how your fundamentals are will determine just how much difference it makes. But it is a noticeable difference as far as recoil and bullet trace.

Not sure what rifle you have but I’m running an AI so it also has quick barrel change and I use the 6.5 for practice for the added recoil and then the GT at matches.

What have you seen for barrel life with the 6GT?

 

[Darkside-Six]

What have you seen for barrel life with the 6GT?

My first barrel I pulled at 3400. Was still shooting same speed and grouping well. Pulled it more or less for piece of mind. 2nd barrel I have right around 2800 on but just switched back to AI so haven’t broken in that barrel yet. Shoot with several other GT shooters that are at or above 3k so that’s a good bench mark.

 

[werth338]

My first barrel I pulled at 3400. Was still shooting same speed and grouping well. Pulled it more or less for piece of mind. 2nd barrel I have right around 2800 on but just switched back to AI so haven’t broken in that barrel yet. Shoot with several other GT shooters that are at or above 3k so that’s a good bench mark.

That is something I can live with. Are you running at 3000 fps or lower?

 

[Darkside-Six]

That is something I can live with. Are you running at 3000 fps or lower?

Nah. 2850 with Beger 109 hybrids.

 

[Stalzer]

Has anyone seen when factory 6GT ammo might be available? Loaded question I am sure.

 

[Darkside-Six]

Has anyone seen when factory 6GT ammo might be available? Loaded question I am sure.

It’s in production right now and should be hitting GA Precision end of March/beginning of April.

 

[Stalzer]

Thanks!

 

[sachsmart]

Went from production 6.5cm+ Vortex PST Ruger Precision to a custom built 6BR in Matrix with ZCO, so quite a big upgrade. The bigger upgrade was 140 ELDMs with 40 SD to handloads with single digit SD and 0.3MOA seating depth with 105 Hybrids. I have only shot 1 match with the new rig so far, I think there was also a big increase in skill with 30mns practice every day during the offseason.
But I went from 40th percentile to 70+ percentile. And even there I think there was enough operator errors that it could have been high 70s or low 80s easily. But this is with 1 match with new rig so probably not a very good data point to compare.

 

[The4GunGuy]

Thanks for the insight. What kind of barrel life are you seeing with 6 BRA

I have a Preferred Barrel Blanks barrel that has ~800 rounds through it. My expectation is to get 3,000 - 4,000 rounds out of the barrel based on other shooters I've talked to with similar load data.

 

[ToddKS]

I made the exact change you are considering (6.5CM to 6GT) a couple years ago. It was a positive change for me. It makes spotting impacts/misses much easier which is a huge part of the game. It is rare that I do not spot my impact or miss with the GT which means I am able to make good adjustments. My impacts went up as a result. It is not a substitute for practice but it makes things easier.

I also had a 6.5 barrel on hand at the time I made the change. I do practice some with the 6.5 to use up the leftover components that I had but I do have a second rifle set up for that purpose.

Another advantage of the 6GT is that it will probably run the powder you already have on hand. It also shoots well with 6.5 Staball which tends to be more available than some others. Staball does have a reputation for being on the dirty side but I have had good results with it. I run 108's and Staball in my practice rifle because it is fast to load and less expensive than my match ammo.

 

[roperking]

Not really money to burn. Actually in more of a cartridge/platform/reloading components consolidation mode. Was looking at 6GT for better barrel life than 6CM and still be able to use AICS mags. If only a couple of shots difference, it makes it hard to make the jump until current barrels are close to toast once stack in all the costs associated with the change.

Whatever the cartridge and mag combo you use, you are going to have to tune it. I have had more problems with the GT cases than any of the others. Honestly the best feeding guns I have are 6 Dashers. MDT BR mags are pretty dialed and my personal favorite mags are AIAW mags with HRD BR kits. They feed amazing after you get it tuned to your gun. If you don't want to run a BR mag or a BR mag kit, I would get a 6CM or better yet stick with the 6.5CM and change to a 153-156 class bullet.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I think im coming full circle back to 6.5. Really like the additional ballistics and if your recoil management and follow through is good, you don't notice a huge difference. It forces you to maintain fundamentals and not get lazy like the 6mm free recoil 25lb guns. Components and factory ammo is readily available. Barrel life is excellent and you can spot your hits and misses easier. Seeing a plate move at 900 with a 143gr vs 105 gr bullet is significant.

 

[DLS]

I think this conversation is why the 25 caliber is this years new flavor.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Part of it. Berger bullet availability also plays into it IMO.

 

[bbyars]

Finally got a 6CM rifle put together and have not yet put the first rounds through this rifle. Although im am not a new shooter to the cartridge, i wanted to ask if there is generally any merit to shooting heavies slower for competition for that specific purpose. I was using the 115 DTACS and getting around 3030FPS @ 41gr of H4350 on another rifle. When i did the same thing with the 6.5CM and 140s i went from 2850fps down to 2750fps. I could tell a difference in muzzle rise and ability to watch impacts while shooting off of my A-frame ladder i use to practice. I know the OP is talking energy transfer to plate but i think the ability to watch goes hand in hand. If everyone is set on 105-109 range, how are you keeping case capacity up in the 6CM and staying in the 2800FPS range?

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Only reason IMO to shoot 6 creed is if you are slaved to factory ammo. You can download it, but then whats the point? You lose efficiency and have to low a case fill making tuning a load much harder. The problem is there is no real good temp stable powder that will give you a high case fill with 6 creed and still stay around those velocities. H4350, Varget and N140 are going to be most popular.

VS a 6Br/Dasher/GT. Just pick a velocity, jump a berger from .020 to .150 and its going to shoot sub 5sd and 3/8 with no load dev if you know how to reload.

If I had to shoot a 6 creed, thats what I would do. Run the 109 hybrid or 115 DTAC at around 2800-2850. Save barrel life and powder. You will just have to spend more time dicking around trying to find a load that it likes and stays in tune as the throat wears. One of the reasons you dont see many 6 creeds on the line anymore, unless people are shooting factory.

 

[bbyars]

Only reason IMO to shoot 6 creed is if you are slaved to factory ammo. You can download it, but then whats the point? You lose efficiency and have to low a case fill making tuning a load much harder. The problem is there is no real good temp stable powder that will give you a high case fill with 6 creed and still stay around those velocities. H4350, Varget and N140 are going to be most popular.

VS a 6Br/Dasher/GT. Just pick a velocity, jump a berger from .020 to .150 and its going to shoot sub 5sd and 3/8 with no load dev if you know how to reload.

If I had to shoot a 6 creed, thats what I would do. Run the 109 hybrid or 115 DTAC at around 2800-2850. Save barrel life and powder. You will just have to spend more time dicking around trying to find a load that it likes and stays in tune as the throat wears. One of the reasons you dont see many 6 creeds on the line anymore, unless people are shooting factory.

Thanks for the info, I’ll probably smoke this barrel and look at something different.

 

[Covertnoob5]

I think part of this discussion also depends on where you shoot. If you 90% shoot east coast type matches. No a lot of wind, tight times, small targets then a Dasher is really all you need.
Out west a 6.5 can be beneficial

 

[Shoots 700's]

I started with 6.5 x 47 and went to 6 dasher and 6 creed. 6 Creed doesn't do anything the dasher won't and I save powder with the dasher.

6.5 x47 gives me better ballistics and performance on the plate and a lower wind call.

 

[rothgyr]

I kept a spreadsheet of my match results for 2 years, beginning with a .260 Remington and switching to 6mms, and calculated z scores to track where I stood in the pack. Assuming regular turn out to the matches with match winners being national level competitors, the same midpack most of the time, and crappy new shooters showing up on the regular, calculating my progress with z scores let me know how well I've been progressing while accounting for crappy conditions, poorly designed stages, etc., vs just looking at my raw match scores.

Understanding that 68% of shooters are within a standard deviation from the mean, a z score of -1.0 means you're the worst of the average, a -2.0 means you suck, and -2.0+ means you're probably the worst. Works the same way in the opposite direction. If your z-score is more than 2.0, you likely won the match, and greater than 1.0, you're likely in the top ten.

Z-Scores from when I was using a .260: (average -1.021)

• -0.959
• -1.214
• -0.999
• -0.911

Z-Scores after switching to 6MM: (average 0.219)

• 0.159
• 0.392
• 0.106

Z-Scores after getting my rifle balanced properly: (average 0.729)

• 0.113
• 1.208
• 1.311
• 0.078
• 0.935

I made a significant improvement when moving to 6mms (1.23 z score values on average) and a further (.51 z score value) improvement when moving to a better balanced chassis. Overall the difference in my shooting improved 1.559 z score points when I made the switch to 6mm.

These scores are for regional matches, and would be lower if looking at national match numbers.

If you're shooting the true average score at matches with a 6.5mm bullet, you'll likely jump to the top ten or top five at regional matches by switching to a well balanced 6mm cartridge. If you're like I was and you're just sucking and well below average at regional matches, switching to a well balanced 6mm is going to land you in the upper mid pack with a few top tens, and a podium here or there.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I kept a spreadsheet of my match results for 2 years, beginning with a .260 Remington and switching to 6mms, and calculated z scores to track where I stood in the pack. Assuming regular turn out to the matches with match winners being national level competitors, the same midpack most of the time, and crappy new shooters showing up on the regular, calculating my progress with z scores let me know how well I've been progressing while accounting for crappy conditions, poorly designed stages, etc., vs just looking at my raw match scores.

View attachment 8282398

Understanding that 68% of shooters are within a standard deviation from the mean, a z score of -1.0 means you're the worst of the average, a -2.0 means you suck, and -2.0+ means you're probably the worst. Works the same way in the opposite direction. If your z-score is more than 2.0, you likely won the match, and greater than 1.0, you're likely in the top ten.

Z-Scores from when I was using a .260: (average -1.021)

• -0.959
• -1.214
• -0.999
• -0.911

Z-Scores after switching to 6MM: (average 0.219)

• 0.159
• 0.392
• 0.106

Z-Scores after getting my rifle balanced properly: (average 0.729)

• 0.113
• 1.208
• 1.311
• 0.078
• 0.935

I made a significant improvement when moving to 6mms (1.23 z score values on average) and a further (.51 z score value) improvement when moving to a better balanced chassis. Overall the difference in my shooting improved 1.559 z score points when I made the switch to 6mm.

These scores are for regional matches, and would be lower if looking at national match numbers.

If you're shooting the true average score at matches with a 6.5mm bullet, you'll likely jump to the top ten or top five at regional matches by switching to a well balanced 6mm cartridge. If you're like I was and you're just sucking and well below average at regional matches, switching to a well balanced 6mm is going to land you in the upper mid pack with a few top tens, and a podium here or there.

Great Job mapping that all out. I wouldn't put too much stock in it however.

Improvement of scores comes with more experience. Unless you were already shooting at the highest level (podiuming at 2 day national matches) you are probably just getting better. Now if you really wanted to gauge this, you would go back to a 6.5 and alternate between matches. I did this this year and saw almost no difference between 6 GT gucci hand loads and factory 6.5CM. This tells me the ammo is within the noise and is not holding me back or limiting me.

Having done this for a few years now and talking to some top level trainers and shooters, I actually think switching to a 6mm early is more of a crutch and will hinder shooter development. It allows for alot more bad habits if you do not have rock solid fundamentals. So while you will get a few more hits, if you have good fundamentals, you would see the same results (or perhaps better with being able to see plate impacts better or not getting a shot counted at LR). You will get to a place with the 6mm where you plateau because you do not have the solid fundamentals and are no longer gaining skill. This happens with Rimfire shooters as well. They are way to forgiving of bad habbits and fundementals. One of the reaosns I stopped competing in rimfire matches, it counter productive for me at this stage.

I wish I would have stuck with 6.5CM for another year before I got my fundamentals figured out, it would have put me in a better place IMO. You are now seeing alot of the top shooters gravitate back towards 6.5 and .25 cal for a number of reasons. Morgan King who is probably the best shooter in the world over the last 5 years, runs 6.5CM with 156 Bergers. Its rare for him not to finish within top 3 at a match or PRS season.

 

[rothgyr]

Great Job mapping that all out. I wouldn't put too much stock in it however.

Improvement of scores comes with more experience. Unless you were already shooting at the highest level (podiuming at 2 day national matches) you are probably just getting better. Now if you really wanted to gauge this, you would go back to a 6.5 and alternate between matches. I did this this year and saw almost no difference between 6 GT gucci hand loads and factory 6.5CM. This tells me the ammo is within the noise and is not holding me back or limiting me.

Having done this for a few years now and talking to some top level trainers and shooters, I actually think switching to a 6mm early is more of a crutch and will hinder shooter development. It allows for alot more bad habits if you do not have rock solid fundamentals. So while you will get a few more hits, if you have good fundamentals, you would see the same results (or perhaps better with being able to see plate impacts better or not getting a shot counted at LR). You will get to a place with the 6mm where you plateau because you do not have the solid fundamentals and are no longer gaining skill. This happens with Rimfire shooters as well. They are way to forgiving of bad habbits and fundementals. One of the reaosns I stopped competing in rimfire matches, it counter productive for me at this stage.

I wish I would have stuck with 6.5CM for another year before I got my fundamentals figured out, it would have put me in a better place IMO. You are now seeing alot of the top shooters gravitate back towards 6.5 and .25 cal for a number of reasons. Morgan King who is probably the best shooter in the world over the last 5 years, runs 6.5CM with 156 Bergers. Its rare for him not to finish within top 3 at a match or PRS season.

This is honestly very true. My skills were improving at the same time, and while it's not reflected in the numbers quite as strongly, I feel like I made the most measurable improvement when I switched my chassis configurations to be better balanced, and again when I dropped bullet speed from 2950 to 2785.

Not having to fight the gun to be on target (balance) is huge, since I stopped needing to time trigger press. Recoil is low on 6mms, but I still blink, and the gun shudders, so I'd miss information downrange when shooting 150 FPS faster.

I'm seeing a few local shooters take after Morgun king and switch back to 6.5 Creedmoor or 25 GT. 156 bergers buck a lot of wind, and at slower speeds, you can recover from recoil in time to see what's going on downrange. They're all using Strike Without Warning brakes too, which helps tame the recoil too. It sounds like they're all running right around 2700 FPS as well.

 

[ncyotecaller]

This is honestly very true. My skills were improving at the same time, and while it's not reflected in the numbers quite as strongly, I feel like I made the most measurable improvement when I switched my chassis configurations to be better balanced, and again when I dropped bullet speed from 2950 to 2785.

Not having to fight the gun to be on target (balance) is huge, since I stopped needing to time trigger press. Recoil is low on 6mms, but I still blink, and the gun shudders, so I'd miss information downrange when shooting 150 FPS faster.

I'm seeing a few local shooters take after Morgun king and switch back to 6.5 Creedmoor or 25 GT. 156 bergers buck a lot of wind, and at slower speeds, you can recover from recoil in time to see what's going on downrange. They're all using Strike Without Warning brakes too, which helps tame the recoil too. It sounds like they're all running right around 2700 FPS as well.

I am moving to the 6.5 Creedmoor and 156’s as well. It will have a TMB on it, specifically my Morgun King edition if the thing ever gets finished. I shot Tac Class last year with a .223 so it will be a big step up. Basically I look at the 156’s is like .308 splash on target and on berms, with a much better b.c and less recoil. I know #2 and #3 in the PRS from the recent season both shoot the same configuration. I know Andy shoots his around 2670fps.

 

[Geocodyrgia]

I went 6mm Creedmoor for my first competition gun as I didn't like the lack of velocity of the Creedmoor cartridge with > 130 grain bullets. The extra case capacity is VERY helpful when using a slower powder pushing the Hornady 108's (with 7828). For a 6.5 I went with a SAUM to get 60-ish grains of slow powder under a 147 - 150 grain bullet.

 

[R_A_W]

I went 6mm Creedmoor for my first competition gun as I didn't like the lack of velocity of the Creedmoor cartridge with > 130 grain bullets.

???

For a 6.5 I went with a SAUM to get 60-ish grains of slow powder under a 147 - 150 grain bullet.

You're running a SAUM @ PRS matches?

 

[Geocodyrgia]

Apologies, should have done a better job in how I said that. I wanted to use slower powders that I already had on hand for other rifles and felt that the 6mm Creedmoor offered more of what I was looking for to put more slower powder behind a smaller bullet to get the speed I was looking for. Your point on practical difference of speeds with the 6.5 is well stated and acknowledged. The SAUM is the same idea in wanting to use slower powders to still be around 3100fps.

As for the SAUM, not yet. I've got it built, finally bought the scope I was really wanting for it from a member here recently (Ares ETR.......yes I'm frugal), but haven't gotten loads worked up or anything yet. In my mind the thought is put the SAUM against the Creedmoor for myself and really see what I like better. A buddy and I were signed up for 2020 but that all went to hell, job changed, spare money got scarce, you know how that goes. We shoot against the benchrest guys at Elbert County Gun Club in GA (knowing we'll never win with our bipods and rear bags) but obviously not the same. Looking forward to hopefully getting to some matches late this year or next.