Importance of bubble level in the real world

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

I like having a reference to level, just because in my years of grading and layout work with heavy equipment I lost confidence in my unaided eye's ability to judge level long ago.

Having a reference inspires confidence for me, and I have found that confidence is <span style="text-decoration: line-through">very sexy</span> goes a long way in the overall equation of placing shots on target under stress. I mainly check it as part of me pre-shot checklist when I am using holdovers of more than a mil. When using holdovers I think its more important than ACI's are overall.

USO's internal level makes it too easy. I'm not a fan of external levels any more for anything but long distance bench or belly shooting. I think maintaining position shot to shot has more value than breaking my position to check a bubble....

 

[mouse07410]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think maintaining position shot to shot has more value than breaking my position to check a bubble....</div></div>
Which is why it's best to mount the level (unless you're lucky enough to have an internal one

) in such a way that you can see it without breaking position. For example, in my setup I view the bubble level with my left eye, and the reticle/target with my right eye. Works quite well.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's like people who live in places like Florida who have Angle Cosine indicators on their rifles...

They live and shoot on flat plains, but that ACS is ever present. </div></div>

Ohhhhhhhhh man. Somebody pull the dagger out of my back

Seriously though...I can honestly say I've never actually seen one of those here but people do ride mountain bikes and put neons under their mobile homes so I can't say for sure that they're not out there.

 

[Lodi]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

Wow what a debate! I have never used one so I guess I'll give it a try and see for my self.

 

[Tucsondave]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

Try one out and see. Look through your scope at a target at any distance. Then peek at the level. readjust your rifle til level on the bubble and see where your target went.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

The bubble helps me level up when I'm shooting drunk.

You know......like during hunting season.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The bubble helps me level up when I'm shooting drunk.

You know......like during hunting season. </div></div>

LOL. Priceless.

 

[fairdebtlawyer]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am not about to murder your fairy. Personally I think Tinkerbell is kinda hot, so who am I to push you towards killing her. </div></div>
pffft. Tinkerbell has a big ass.

I got a US Optics level and haven't fired a shot with it, mostly because the few shots I've fired since, I didn't even think about the level and therefore didn't unscrew the little cap off of it. It's on the aftmost slot of the rail, just forward of the CH on my LR-308, so I can see it out of the corner of my sighting eye. Just today I was dryfiring and finally remembered to unscrew the little cap, and pretty soon learned that I cant more than I thought. Probably just leveling the reticle when I installed the scope would have helped more. But the USO ACD doesn't weigh much and is paid for so I'll keep it.

Haven't had a use for ACD before because shooting on square KD ranges it's both unnecessary and not allowed under competition rules. I suppose I should go put some bullets in the gun and see what happens out here on the farm.

 

[cjgemm]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know they're generally accurate enough to hold an aircraft wings level in the event of flight instrument failure. Note the bubble below the FDI...that's exactly what its for and the ones used in avaition aren't exactly manufactured by rocket scientists. They really don't have to be that accurate for a shooters purpose.

</div></div>

Are you sure thats not a turn coordinator/indicator?

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cjgemm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are you sure thats not a turn coordinator/indicator? </div></div> Yes it is a turn coordinator. I meant to say straight and level verses wings level but didn't feel like changing it since I figured nobody would notice the difference. The concept stil applies though...they're no more magical than a rifle bubble yet are accurate enough to get the job done. I have around 5k hours staring at one. Since it is a true level in function we also used them on the ground to determine wings-level for strut servicing, jacking, and fuel quantity checks while dipping the fuel tanks.

 

[SScott]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<span style="text-decoration: line-through">Any of you guys that have a USO flip type level, but are not using it get ahold of me</span>, <span style="color: #6600CC">I just sent money for one, thanks guys.</span> (especially those that have won them and don't belive in them, as I really need a good deal) I am setting up another TRG and I do use it as part of my shooting checklist.
For the post that mentioned that they didn't have time to check theirs during a match, don't forget, "only hits count"
SScott

 

[crumpmd]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">George won it several times without one, I was 2nd more than once without it, how do you account for the winners who didn't use it. </div></div>

Shear luck.

 

[rpk762]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

I recently got one. Do you need one? No. Are they handy? Sure they are. Here is where I have found I like using them. If you have more than one rifle you shoot long range with that have different stocks getting setup correctly can be hard. I have a 308 in a AICS stock and a 300WM in a A4 stock. When I go back to my A4 I want to cant it bad. It feels like it is good but it is canted so when shooting on a flat range I can see it is canted. When shooting someplace where there is nothing to get a level reference on the level is the only way to fly.

It is true that at closer ranges it does not matter if you are canted a little bit but when the distance starts to grow why not have one more thing to make sure you can take the shot correctly?

 

[psinclair]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sunnyside Scott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any of you guys that have a USO flip type level, but are not using it get ahold of me,(especially those that have won them and don't belive in them, as I really need a good deal) I am setting up another TRG and I do use it as part of my shooting checklist.
For the post that mentioned that they didn't have time to check theirs during a match, don't forget, "only hits count"
SScott

</div></div>

I've got one I'll sell you cheap....useless gadget.

 

[UW Mitch]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

Without the bubble level I attached to my scope rails I wouldn't have noticed my reticle/scope was slightly canted relative to the rifle

I also didn't realize that I tended to cant the rifle as part of my hold. It's a great information tool.

~Mitch

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

So,

Here i am setting up my 338LM for a class, moved my 5-25X over, and decided well, hey let me see, I have a bubble level here let me try it.

So I set up the scope, use the Feeler Gauges, make sure that is good, then I look through and make sure all looks square. Check, to me looks good.

Now I add the level to the rail, and check my position, and sure as heck I am just slightly off, not completely but off a bit... but wait, something is not right because the rifle appears to be leaning a bit when the rail level shows level. So I grab a second level and put it on the nice big Parallax knob and check, just to be sure.

Sure enough, where my eye said level was, I was square with the scope, and the rail level was off just enough to actually introduce enough canting I would have probably have to start dialing for Spin Drift. My natural feel was actually on par with the level along the scope and not the rail.

I about started laughing ... so much for that.

You guys enjoy, maybe a few more want to look at checking level and square in more than locations. Vertical as well as horizontal.

 

[Dagsta]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

Frank, just wanted to express my gratitude for making me aware that, since Florida folks need Angle Cosine Indicators, you know I have to have one down here in the Swamp to navigate the 2 to 5ft elevation changes.

All this time and I didn't have a clue

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

Don,

I thought about including LA, TX, OK, and the multitude of other places with less than 500 feet changes in elevation. But figured the point was made. LOl

I definitely recommend the ACI for you, as you may fall out of a boat, having to shoot up outta the water into another boat, so that angle will be extreme.

As a post script to my level experience today, I also had a Holland scope level here, and set it up in both directions. Check my scope, looked good, and then looked at the level that was set up level with two levels and it was still level where I felt it was level before I looked at the level. So I figure I am good to go level-less with no ill effects. Your mileage may vary, but I highly recommend you check your rail level for actually being level before assuming it is level.

 

[ratton]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

That bubble level in the aircraft is a turn and slip indicator. It is not for leveling the wings etc. It's to trim the aircraft.

 

[-=boone=-]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

Here’s my opinion on the issue.

When you’re in a location say like the flat lands of Texas or on a range are levels important? No. Not hard to look over top of your turret at the horizon and know you’re level.

Now if I take you up in the mountains have you laying sideways on a steep grade to keep you from rolling off the mountain. Then have you engage a target downhill at 800 yards in a draw on a equally steep grade where it’s not possible to look over your turret at the horizon. Is a level helpful? You bet your ass it is.

Some people will say oh I made a bad wind call. Did you? Or did you have a slight cant?

What can we take from this?

1. A level is a tool, it is a helpful tool for long range shooters especially new shooters to be able to recognize cant.
2. Taking someone like Frank who shoots 50,000 rounds of .308 alone a year is not a equal comparison for 95% of the shooters out there. This isn’t a dig at Frank but we do need a little perspective on the issue.

If you don’t need it, cool. That tells me you’re a solid shooter who knows his equipment. However let’s not paint this topic with a broad brush and say anti-cants are useless. They have their purpose.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dagger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That bubble level in the aircraft is a turn and slip indicator. It is not for leveling the wings etc. It's to trim the aircraft. </div></div> Well, yes and no. In my community it was in fact called a turn and slip indicator however I've also seen them referred to as a yaw indicator. Whatever name used, the instrument its part of is the flight director indicator (FDI). Unless of course the FDI is referred to by a different name based on the platform, manufacture, and several other factors. Confused yet?

In either case, in my community they were simply referred to as the ball and trimming the aircraft was only one of its functions. Sure, you could use it to trim out a sideslip but its also used to determine rudder input to coordinate a turn.

As for the level part, it actually is a level, however G's acting on it in flight when the aircraft is sliding prevent it from performing that function. It will function as a level on the ground and is used as such by ground crews on certain aircraft.

 

[mouse07410]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So,

Here i am setting up my 338LM for a class, moved my 5-25X over, and decided well, hey let me see, I have a bubble level here let me try it.

So I set up the scope, use the Feeler Gauges, make sure that is good, then I look through and make sure all looks square. Check, to me looks good.

Now I add the level to the rail, and check my position, and sure as heck I am just slightly off, not completely but off a bit... but wait, something is not right because the rifle appears to be leaning a bit when the rail level shows level. So I grab a second level and put it on the nice big Parallax knob and check, just to be sure.

Sure enough, where my eye said level was, I was square with the scope, and the rail level was off just enough to actually introduce enough canting I would have probably have to start dialing for Spin Drift. My natural feel was actually on par with the level along the scope and not the rail.

I about started laughing ... so much for that.

You guys enjoy, maybe a few more want to look at checking level and square in more than locations. Vertical as well as horizontal. </div></div>
Yep. And sometimes the top of the elevation turret isn't perfectly perpendicular to the vertical/tracking line. And sometimes the bottom of the tube (that flat part where people stick the feeler gauges

) isn't perfectly perpendicular either. The better the scope is - the likelier it all is to be in sync; no guarantee though. That doesn't touch reticle cant yet - if the reticle is canted "enough" your mounting choice would be between reticle suitable for holding over/under but not tracking correctly, or correct tracking but "canted" view and difficulty doing reticle holds. Again, the better the scope - the less likely to find a
"large" cant, but they all have some.

P.S. I personally prefer bubble level that attaches to the scope, so I have some control over where it sits and what it shows. Vortex bubble level works pretty well for me.

 

[Fester47]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

Frank says that one bubble was off compared to the others. As long as you are consistently canting the same way every time you shoot I don’t think it would matter if one bubble is level with a different bubble level. As long as you are consistent with what the one bubble says. Consistency is the key. Even consistently doing it wrong is still consistent. As long as you are consistent you can be accurate. Right?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mouse07410</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So,

Here i am setting up my 338LM for a class, moved my 5-25X over, and decided well, hey let me see, I have a bubble level here let me try it.

So I set up the scope, use the Feeler Gauges, make sure that is good, then I look through and make sure all looks square. Check, to me looks good.

Now I add the level to the rail, and check my position, and sure as heck I am just slightly off, not completely but off a bit... but wait, something is not right because the rifle appears to be leaning a bit when the rail level shows level. So I grab a second level and put it on the nice big Parallax knob and check, just to be sure.

Sure enough, where my eye said level was, I was square with the scope, and the rail level was off just enough to actually introduce enough canting I would have probably have to start dialing for Spin Drift. My natural feel was actually on par with the level along the scope and not the rail.

I about started laughing ... so much for that.

You guys enjoy, maybe a few more want to look at checking level and square in more than locations. Vertical as well as horizontal. </div></div>
Yep. And sometimes the top of the elevation turret isn't perfectly perpendicular to the vertical/tracking line. And sometimes the bottom of the tube (that flat part where people stick the feeler gauges

) isn't perfectly perpendicular either. The better the scope is - the likelier it all is to be in sync; no guarantee though. That doesn't touch reticle cant yet - if the reticle is canted "enough" your mounting choice would be between reticle suitable for holding over/under but not tracking correctly, or correct tracking but "canted" view and difficulty doing reticle holds. Again, the better the scope - the less likely to find a
"large" cant, but they all have some.

P.S. I personally prefer bubble level that attaches to the scope, so I have some control over where it sits and what it shows. Vortex bubble level works pretty well for me.</div></div>

Ah, so everything else was off,

After how many scopes I mount, my tried and true S&B 5-25X is the issues, plus if you note in my explanation I said I level it along the Parallax knob not the elevation.

I like how it becomes the fault of the rest of the system and not the $40 bubble level issue....

I checked the scope's reticle by both the feeler gauge when mounting it and I checked the plumb with a line...

it was pretty easy to see the rifle was canted using the rail level. So it begs the questions how many people simply mounted the level and never checked level by more than one other method ?

Sorry Mouse, I hate to break it too, I trust me and my methods as well as my equipment much more than the level when I clearly noted a can't. I gave credit to a scope mounted level but it also requires you to properly mount it. Here above you blamed a host of issues, not related to the level but failed to mention anything about properly mounting and checking level... Sorry no free lunches.

 

[fusiachi]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know they're generally accurate enough to hold an aircraft wings level in the event of flight instrument failure. Note the bubble below the FDI...that's exactly what its for and the ones used in avaition aren't exactly manufactured by rocket scientists. They really don't have to be that accurate for a shooters purpose.

</div></div>

Nope. That shows that the aircraft is properly trimmed in its longitudinal axis. It will stay right where it is in a coordinated turn with the wings banked 60 degrees.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: crumpmd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">George won it several times without one, I was 2nd more than once without it, how do you account for the winners who didn't use it. </div></div>

Shear luck. </div></div>

Yes...even a blind hooker turns a trick once in a while LOL

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fusiachi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nope. That shows that the aircraft is properly trimmed in its longitudinal axis. </div></div>Its only showing that right now. Read back before posting on this so I don't have to keep splainin'.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: crumpmd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">George won it several times without one, I was 2nd more than once without it, how do you account for the winners who didn't use it. </div></div>

Shear luck. </div></div>

Yes...even a blind hooker turns a trick once in a while LOL

</div></div>

Well more like 3 or 4 times... but we get it.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well more like 3 or 4 times... but we get it. </div></div>
Cool. Wasn't sure you would. You know...it being Florida humor and all

 

[SFC Carpentier jr]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

OK does this mean we are level now?

 

[gstaylorg]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

Frank,
If the human eye is better than a bubble level when under less than optimal conditions (ie. out shooting), why should it be necessary to employ a level/plumb line/spacers, etc., when mounting a scope under more ideal conditions, like at home? Seems like it shouldn't be necessary to use any of those devices when mounting a scope if the human eye is really that good.

Just for comedy, I will be happy to buy a brand new rail-mounted USO anti-cant device and send it to you if you'd be willing to give it a fair test and post your opinion afterwards. It's not exactly a $40.00 level like whatever type it was you mentioned in your post, but something along the lines of a 10-shot group at 1000 yd with it folded, then another with it deployed. Just to be fair, it should probably be mounted so that it's <span style="font-style: italic">actually</span> level when the reticle/rail is level. After the test, if you like it, keep it. If you think it's a useless POS, you can donate it to one of sadly misguided flock so they can sleep better at night (LOL). What do you say?


Edited to add: Lowlight already did the test using that specific bubble level (see post above). It was a FAIL. So there you have it folks.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

Easy,

Because you cannot mount the scope while looking at it, and you us the feeler gauges to hold it in place while you tighten it down. This way if the rings happen to grab it, and move the reticle during torquing it is best to check square with something like a plumb line. I use the feeler gauges to simply ease mounting, usually it is enough to do the job, but never hurts to check.

So what you are saying is, I should shoot a group at 1000 yards and see which group is what ? Better than the other, more in line with level ?

I have levels, I have used levels, I find no benefit in checking one, shooting checking again, shooting, checking level shooting, checking level again, shooting. My eye can tell me if the sight picture is off, I can successfully quarter a target and understand what 12 O Clock looks like in reference to 3 O Clock.

But if you want to send me a Level I would be happy to entertain your offer.

 

[fusiachi]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fusiachi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nope. That shows that the aircraft is properly trimmed in its longitudinal axis. </div></div>Its only showing that right now. Read back before posting on this so I don't have to keep splainin'.</div></div>
All the splanin' in the world about what you think you know about what this instrument is capable of won't change the fact that you don't appear to know what this instrument is capable of. You can be wings level with a full scale deflection, and you can be upside down headed for a smoking hole in the ground with the ball centered.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know they're generally accurate enough to hold an aircraft wings level in the event of flight instrument failure.</div></div>
You cannot, under any circumstances, rely on this instrument to tell you whether or not your wings are level. You're confusing a slip/skid indicator with the turn coordinator found in general aviation aircraft.

 

[kbrady]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

That's it!! I'm getting a laser level. You guys can piss off with your old fashioned bubble levels.......it's got a fricken laser beam ffs!

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fusiachi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You cannot, under any circumstances, rely on this instrument to tell you whether or not your wings are level. You're confusing a slip/skid indicator with the turn coordinator found in general aviation aircraft. </div></div>

The instrument in the photo is a "generic" photo used for illustration purposes and was not used to imply that the specific instrument in the photo can be used for anything, nor am I referring to any general aviation aircraft. It was for illustration purposes only. I have more than 5000 flight hours as an engineer in fixed winged multi engine DOD aircraft and likely triple that on the ground as a A&P technician. Our flight director or FDI (which was what the <span style="text-decoration: underline">generic</span> photo was used to illustrate) had a slip/skid indicator (or WHATEVER YOU'D LIKE TO CALL IT to make you happy) that also served as a level. It could be verified to be level by removing the floor boards to expose the plumb plate or "ouigi board" as it was often referred.

This board was used during manufacture to ensure everything is plumb but unless you're a technician or flight engineer you've likely never seen one or knew of its existence, but most DOD aircraft have one stashed somewhere <span style="text-decoration: underline">OR</span> some other similar system which is also used during depot/rework to ensure a level aircraft. With the aircraft verified plumb, that ball (not necessarily that precise one in the <span style="text-decoration: underline">generic</span> photo) should be level as should the nose up/down bubble level on the flight bulkhead. You absolutely CAN use them to determine wings level. Certainly not all of them but that wasn't my point (again...generic photo). I've done it hundreds of times and thousands like me have done it hundreds of times.

The fact that you don't know how to do it does not make me wrong. I was merely trying to make a simple point that this innacurate "bubble" that everyone is talking about is used in aviation to perform some partiicularly critical tasks in spite of the instruments apparent simplicity. Nothing more than that. If you'd like me to show you how its done and would like to arrange it, I'd be more than happy to show you but I charge $400 per hour including expenses plus 20 case of my choice of ammo.

 

[Daps!]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

Wow some pretty heated opinions here, what ever happened to different strokes for different folks? My opinion is for a relatively newer shooter like me a anti-cant is a critical part of my preshot routine. It would be a fair statement to say that I don't have the repetitions that some of the more experienced shooters here have and I need the "training wheels" as some call them. I could see an argument from some that are vastly more experienced that such "gadgets" are unnecessary. I for one in my padawon stage of learning find that it helps alot when I shoot at distance in real world environments ie. not at a range with benches and concrete (there are not many level horizons that i can see where i shoot). My issue with those that argue so vehemently against these is, if it's not hurting anything and is providing sales and a job for someone in an already pressured shooting community whats the harm if people want to drop their hard earned money on a piece of kit that may or may not be useful. If you like it use it, if not don't thats the way i see it. Also how many of you "need" multicam?

 

[JC Steel]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

I think they are handy on hilly terrain. It does not add a bunch of weight so I might as well have one for those really long side hill shots.

No everyone is blessed enought to shoot off concrete pads for 90 percent of their matches!!!

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

I don't see this as heated by any stretch of the imagination, especially for the internet.

Heck the guys talking airplanes are more disagreeable than whether or not a level in worth the investment.

I know I have stated at least twice now, that if makes you feel good, run with it. But again, like all these "recent' innovations, there are certain caveats that go under the radar and hidden to the side like, not blindly believing your level is... but that is up to you, the end user whether you choose to trust or verify.

the choice is always with you the shooter, the end user, as to what works and what doesn't, and why something works better than something else. The debate is really about blind faith or heathy skepticism if you ask me.

 

[Shredder58]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

Hmmmm...I think folks that are into golfing spend way more on things that can be called "gimmicks". If it helps you improve, or helps you to stay at the top of your game, then who is someone else to say that it was just a "gimmick" or whether it really works?

I say we all stop debating the merits (good or bad) and get out there and have some fun shooting! And if you think a level will help (bubble, laser, or whatever), bring one (or more) along!!! The more the merrier

!

Just my .02cents...

 

[mouse07410]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ah, so everything else was off,

After how many scopes I mount, my tried and true S&B 5-25X is the issues, plus if you note in my explanation I said I level it along the Parallax knob not the elevation.

I like how it becomes the fault of the rest of the system and not the $40 bubble level issue.... </div></div>
I am sorry I did not make myself clear.

Of course I'm not questioning that in your case that $40 bubble gadget was at fault.

I was bringing up the fact that <span style="text-decoration: underline">other</span> components can <span style="text-decoration: underline">also</span> be less than perfect, and therefore the full verification is advisable - like you said:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I checked the scope's reticle by both the feeler gauge when mounting it and I checked the plumb with a line...</div></div>
That's what I do - except that I also check the turret top and the raceway with levels (unnecessary? Probably. I consider it fun, and I'm a precision freak - so I do it. You don't have to).

In my case - since I don't mount these bubbles to the Picatinny rail but to the scope tube - it's up to me to mount them in any position/angle I see fit (and I can make them level with whatever I choose). In your case - the device was stuck on the rail with no way to adjust it to make it useful for you or to remedy that cant (as far as I understand it).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here above you blamed a host of issues, not related to the level but failed to mention anything about properly mounting and checking level... Sorry no free lunches.</div></div>
Oh, that goes without saying - for the equipment to function perfectly it has to be properly/perfectly installed and maintained. That much should be obvious. Like the necessity of improving/perfecting the fundamentals - for e.g., if one jerks the trigger it won't matter whether the rifle is level or whether the scope is properly mounted.


P.S. I don't know S&B scopes - so you understand that I don't understand your explanation about leveling along the Parallax knob, unless you were aligning vertical. Not a crucial detail though - unless I'm missing something. Because an ideal (or close enough to ideal) scope would have all those surfaces perfectly square: bottom of the tube, top turret, windage turret, Parallax knob...

 

[BobinNC]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I am not about to murder your fairy. Personally I think Tinkerbell is kinda hot, so who am I to push you towards killing her. </div></div>

 

[Ratbert]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobinNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I am not about to murder your fairy. Personally I think Tinkerbell is kinda hot, so who am I to push you towards killing her. </div></div>

</div></div>

LL and my 3 yr old would get along just fine. They both have a tinkerbell fetish and Frank's tall enough to look him square in the eye.

 

[Badshot308]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don,

I thought about including LA, TX, OK, and the multitude of other places with less than 500 feet changes in elevation. But figured the point was made. LOl

I definitely recommend the ACI for you, as you may fall out of a boat, having to shoot up outta the water into another boat, so that angle will be extreme.

As a post script to my level experience today, I also had a Holland scope level here, and set it up in both directions. Check my scope, looked good, and then looked at the level that was set up level with two levels and it was still level where I felt it was level before I looked at the level. So I figure I am good to go level-less with no ill effects. Your mileage may vary, but I highly recommend you check your rail level for actually being level before assuming it is level. </div></div>

Are you being level with us???

 

[Jaxdialation]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

Funny, the first thing my instrument check ride guy did was cover the artificial horizon. I was expected to fly a ton of maneuvers where the Turn and Bank gauge as a key indicator of flight attitude (altimeter, compass and air speed too).

It makes a fella pull the the seat cushion right up his ass hole when it happens in real life. I practiced it weekly.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fusiachi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You cannot, under any circumstances, rely on this instrument to tell you whether or not your wings are level. You're confusing a slip/skid indicator with the turn coordinator found in general aviation aircraft. </div></div>

 

[mouse07410]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jAXDIALATION</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Funny, the first thing my instrument check ride guy did was cover the artificial horizon. I was expected to fly a ton of maneuvers where the Turn and Bank gauge as a key indicator of flight attitude (altimeter, compass and air speed too).

It makes a fella pull the the seat cushion right up his ass hole when it happens in real life. I practiced it weekly.</div></div>
Yeah, it was fun, wasn't it.

Another nice thing to practice is Black Cockpit: all the electrical things are covered or switched off (as appropriate) - of course illumination included. And of course if you brought a flashlight with you (as you should've

) - it just quit.

As for seat cushions - naw, mine's still intact. <span style="font-style: italic">Or is it because there are no teeth at that area?

</span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fusiachi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You cannot, under any circumstances, rely on this instrument to tell you whether or not your wings are level. You're confusing a slip/skid indicator with the turn coordinator found in general aviation aircraft. </div></div>
Considering that if you're flying straight and your wings aren't level you'd be skidding/slipping - I'd say "never say never again".

 

[fusiachi]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mouse07410</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fusiachi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You cannot, under any circumstances, rely on this instrument to tell you whether or not your wings are level. You're confusing a slip/skid indicator with the turn coordinator found in general aviation aircraft. </div></div>
Considering that if you're flying straight and your wings aren't level you'd be skidding/slipping - I'd say "never say never again".

</div></div>
Do you want to expand on that a little bit to explain how, in that condition, the slip/skid indicator gives you actionable intelligence on what's going on with the plane's roll axis? As I read it you just made my point for me.

A bubble level responds to the force of gravity. The aircraft instrument depicted in the image responds to the lateral forces acting on the longitudinal axis of the aircraft. They're not the same thing.

I really hate to nudge this thing back on topic, but the equipment that our bodies use to maintain spatial awareness and equilibrium isn't always working at peak efficiency, and can be deceived. I don't see the harm in having a simple mechanical reference for backup.

 

[timelinex]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

Ok, got it.

Bubble Level the Bubble Levels.... CHECK

(pic found on internet)

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fusiachi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A bubble level responds to the force of gravity. The aircraft instrument depicted in the image responds to the lateral forces acting on the longitudinal axis of the aircraft. They're not the same thing. </div></div>

I'll give it a whirl...

The instrument is not responding to forces on the aircraft. It responding to forces placed on the instrument. The instrument doesn't know that its an instrument or even that its mounted to an aircraft. Its essentially a dumb instrument.

Same concept as...if someone hands me a wrench and I hit them over the head with it. It has just become a hammer. The wrench doesn't know its not a hammer which is why his head bleeds/hurts afterwards

 

[timelinex]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fusiachi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
....
A bubble level responds to the force of gravity. The aircraft instrument depicted in the image responds to the lateral forces acting on the longitudinal axis of the aircraft. They're not the same thing.
....
</div></div>

Fixed

 

[LFOD1776]

Re: Importance of bubble level in the real world

I think a bubble level might actually be useful if you were making a long-distance shot in the mountains, in the absence of visual cues to the natural horizon.

Phoenix Tactical (Cheese) sells something called a "Level Grouse" which is an electronic instrument that will signal a deviation from level by as little as .1 degree. That is better than you can detect using your natural senses, even on a perfectly level shooting range. It might make an actual (if small) difference, provided it doesn't just distract you from hitting the target!

That thing on the instrument panel is just a bubble. If I were flying a plane so equipped, I would apply rudder pressure to keep the ball centered ("step on the ball") which would coordinate roll and yaw forces for passenger comfort. It looks like part of an instrument called a turn coordinator, which you can use in a pinch in conjunction with an altimeter (and maybe a VSI, AKA variometer) to keep an aircraft flying straight in the event that vacuum system craps out (resulting in functional loss of your heading indicator and artificial horizon). I am a certificated private pilot, I have experienced a vacuum system failure in flight (before GPS became so prevalent in civilian aviation), and I found those other instruments -- even the compass -- useful for my survival. I have never used any of these instruments outside of the cockpit, however.