Improving handloads, annealing or neck mandrels?

[cm1021]

Every so often I look at my handloading and either upgrade equipment or implement something new to improve my accuracy. Right now I can consistently load half moa ammo. I have been thinking about adding annealing to my process to improve consistency, as well as increase brass life.

Watching some videos I dove into the world if neck tension and neck mandrels to set it. My question is what do you think would benefit me more, adding annealing, or going with a neck mandrel die to set neck tension?

Currently I run all redding dies, FL sizer, bumping shoulders back, but it has the carbide sizer button. Im looking at the 21st century neck mandrels. I would just use my redding die without the expander, then run them through the 21st die.

My thinking is that the annealing and mandrel kind of goes hand in hand. I would annealing every firing, so kind of starting from zero every time. To me that seems to be the best way to have a solid base and repeat exactly the same each time.

 

[K80/6.5]

I just started doing this exact thing annealed my first batch and my mandrel from 21st century came in the other day. Hoping to see some improvements.

 

[Punkur67]

Do both

 

[Mauser06]

The mandrel and die isn't much money.


Annealer...well..you can sink a good bit if you go to AMP.


I'd add the annealer first. Just to save my brass. But ultimately, both are worth doing IMO. They will both help neck tension consistency.

.you mention starting back over. Right now, every time you reload your brass you are essentially starting over. The necks are not what they were the firing before. Definitely not what they were when they were new. Annealing every firing puts the brass back into the same state every loading.


Some say it's a waste of time to trim before they get long... but I trim/chamfer/debur every loading. Just for consistency. I set my trimmer to just kiss the shortest case after the first firing and haven't touched it. It's interesting that some barely get touched and some get a little bit taken off.

 

[RldrNewby]

Ditto on your post. I picked up annealing already, and so far so good. Can definitely tell the difference in work hardened versus annealed now that I’ve annealed awhile. The next step for me will be incorporating a mandrel to set final inner diameter, & most likely will go with 21st Century. Can’t remember where I read it, but I do remember reading the logic behind a mandrel slightly edging out a standard resizing expander ball in performance is the mandrel is sizing the inside of the neck on the down stroke of the press ram, where the shoulder & case are properly supported, versus a standard expander ball on a stem sizing the inside of the neck on the press ram upstroke, where the case is being pulled upward & only supported by the case rim in the shell holder. If a standard expander binds slightly on the way up, it can more easily deform the neck runout in theory, & even pull the shoulder bump out slightly. All theory I suppose, but it sold me, & I intend to try it at some point.

Edit: I got the downstroke & upstroke of the ram backwards. Senior moment. With Mandrel, the ram is actually on the upstroke, forcing the base of cartridge onto shell holder plate (Mandrel essentially going down into the neck, whereas standard expander ball sizing neck when ram is going down (Expander ball pulling case neck upwards with case rim only contacting top of shell holder).

 

[cm1021]

The mandrel and die isn't much money.


Annealer...well..you can sink a good bit if you go to AMP.


I'd add the annealer first. Just to save my brass. But ultimately, both are worth doing IMO. They will both help neck tension consistency.

.you mention starting back over. Right now, every time you reload your brass you are essentially starting over. The necks are not what they were the firing before. Definitely not what they were when they were new. Annealing every firing puts the brass back into the same state every loading.


Some say it's a waste of time to trim before they get long... but I trim/chamfer/debur every loading. Just for consistency. I set my trimmer to just kiss the shortest case after the first firing and haven't touched it. It's interesting that some barely get touched and some get a little bit taken off.

You're right on with my thinking of "starting back over" every time. I do the same of running every piece of brass through the trimmer, then chamfer and debur. Im trying to make every aspect that I can, exactly the same. Thats where I think the annealer comes into play by setting the metallurgy back to the same spot before I start the process. (Not exactly metallurgy, but you get my point). I will probably end up grabbing both of them as everyone has said, they go hand in hand, plus the neck mandrel isn't that expensive from 21st century so I'm hoping adding these can help with my loads.

From what little reading I have done, the ES and SD should probably be one of the first things that I see an improvement in, which will correlate to tighter groups at longer range.

 

[Texasflyer]

An annealer doesnt have to cost a fortune. I use a lazy susan style with a torch and water bath. Cost me about 3 bucks for a teracotta pot base.

 

[spife7980]

Annealing as being able to reset to a consistent baseline hardness for each firing will make everything more uniform down the line.

 

[bunny too]

I just received my AMP and I can tell a major difference between using it and my old hand annealing. I also use the Redding bushing neck die and a mandrel. My SD is hovering around 4.8 for twenty rounds fired.

 

[Baron23]

Every so often I look at my handloading and either upgrade equipment or implement something new to improve my accuracy. Right now I can consistently load half moa ammo. I have been thinking about adding annealing to my process to improve consistency, as well as increase brass life.

Watching some videos I dove into the world if neck tension and neck mandrels to set it. My question is what do you think would benefit me more, adding annealing, or going with a neck mandrel die to set neck tension?

Currently I run all redding dies, FL sizer, bumping shoulders back, but it has the carbide sizer button. Im looking at the 21st century neck mandrels. I would just use my redding die without the expander, then run them through the 21st die.

My thinking is that the annealing and mandrel kind of goes hand in hand. I would annealing every firing, so kind of starting from zero every time. To me that seems to be the best way to have a solid base and repeat exactly the same each time.

Have you measured your neck I.D. after sizing with Redding FL?

I ask because I found pin gages to be very illuminating.

Once fired Hornady 6.5 man bun brass, run through a Redding FL die with expander ball, Berger 140 gr Hybrid Targets with .2635 OD at the bearing surface.

Found my necks were being very consistently sized to .2605 (.003 tension) with only a few being .260 ID and none being larger.

Sort of took some of the steam out of my interest in bushing dies and mandrels.

Cheers

 

[spife7980]

Bushing and mandrels don’t only exist because a normal die and expander ball doesnt work.

Take the expander out and see how much the normal die actually sizes down the neck before it gets opened back up. That extra .006-.012 of neck material movement is why people use bushings, just to eliminate the extra.

And the mandrel just provides a longer and more equitable dwell time on the stick so that the entire neck is getting the same expansion at the same time instead of just where the little outside edge of the ball is making what is basically tangential contact with a very small portion of the neck at a time.

 

[RldrNewby]

Bushing and mandrels don’t exist because a normal die and expander ball dont work.

Take the expander out and see how much the normal die actually sizes down the neck before it gets opened back up. That extra .006-.012 of neck material movement is why people use bushings, just to eliminate the extra.

And the mandrel just provides a longer and more equitable dwell time on the stick so that the entire neck is getting the same expansion at the same time instead of just where the little outside edge of the ball is making what is basically tangential contact with a very small portion of the neck at a time.

This is right on… “Bushing and mandrels don’t exist because a normal die and expander ball dont work.”

I’ve had plenty of great groups with my Standard RCBS FL S/B Die in .223, and even more amazing groups out of my older Standard Redding F/L (Non-Bushing) in 6.5CM. Have shot them both successfully out to 1000yds as well. The Standard Dies, Bushing Dies, & Mandrels all work with great success. To me, customizing hand loads by trying different technique & testing my changes to see if they made any improvement is the funnest part of reloading. Never know what you’re gonna get till u try it. Can’t wait to try Mandrels at some point.

 

[Snuby642]

A 21st Century mandrell setup is cheap and works well.

I'm a cheapskate so I just undersized my fls dies expanding buttons and dont like bushing dies much either.

My loads got an average of 20% tighter groups.

That being said if I were getting .50 groups I might leave them alone unless br competition.

 

[Ape_Factory]

You guys turned me on to 21st Century here and I use their mandrel system and it definitely made a difference. I do both, anneal and mandrel, for semi-auto and it really helped get neck tension under control. I use the cheap man's annealing process...socket, electric screwdriver, propane burner and a watch. Would love to own an AMP.

 

[RldrNewby]

You guys turned me on to 21st Century here and I use their mandrel system and it definitely made a difference. I do both, anneal and mandrel, for semi-auto and it really helped get neck tension under control. I use the cheap man's annealing process...socket, electric screwdriver, propane burner and a watch. Would love to own an AMP.

Anyone have any tips on choosing the right size Mandrel? I was getting about 2 thou with my stock expanding ball & bushing die, so I measured the expander ball, and got .262, so that’s what I ordered? I’ve over extended my reloading budget here lately, so I only ordered that one size, but prolly should’ve ordered a size or two above it, & few more below it for when I change brass or bullets, but that’ll have to do for now.

 

[Dogtown]

FWIW, I started piecemeal with mandrels, but over time ended up with nearly the full set for three different calibers.

Normally I had a range of bushings I’d work with and generally one I used most often, so I’d start by getting 3 mandrels with the lowest to match that bushing. The point being that the first mandrel wouldn’t really expand the neck after the bushing but would guarantee concentricity. Then I had two more mandrels to expand the neck by +0.005 increments.

The results of this were impressive enough that I started experimenting with other cartridges of the same caliber and ended up needing some more mandrels in that range. Then I just added this process to all of my reloading and started getting mandrel sets for other calibers. If I knew then what I know now, I just would have bit the bullet and bought the complete sets and saved a bit of money.

 

[cm1021]

Anyone have any tips on choosing the right size Mandrel? I was getting about 2 thou with my stock expanding ball & bushing die, so I measured the expander ball, and got .262, so that’s what I ordered? I’ve over extended my reloading budget here lately, so I only ordered that one size, but prolly should’ve ordered a size or two above it, & few more below it for when I change brass or bullets, but that’ll have to do for now.

I ended up ordering two and the die. I went with .0015 and .002 under. From everything I've read, its kind if a trial and error. I will be annealing every time so im hoping that will help with spring back. I'll be shooting for .002 neck tension.

Whatever your bullet diameter is, just pick the neck tension you want, subtract that from your bullet diameter and you should be close. So for my 6mm I ordered a .241 and .2415

 

[Rocketmandb]

I ended up ordering two and the die. I went with .0015 and .002 under. From everything I've read, its kind if a trial and error. I will be annealing every time so im hoping that will help with spring back. I'll be shooting for .002 neck tension.

Whatever your bullet diameter is, just pick the neck tension you want, subtract that from your bullet diameter and you should be close. So for my 6mm I ordered a .241 and .2415

Don't forget the neck lube - I've got a thread going where I'm comparing different processes (mandrel, mandrel + lube, no mandrel + lube, lube no mandrel, etc.).

It's a quick and easy step that makes a good bit of difference.

Mandrel Musings

When I first got my K&M arbor press for seating, I was somewhat surprised at the spread of the values of force required to seat bullets. Knowing that neck tension plays a significant role in ES/SD, I started doing various things to try to bring seating force in line. I had been doing most my...

www.snipershide.com

 

[Dthomas3523]

Anyone have any tips on choosing the right size Mandrel? I was getting about 2 thou with my stock expanding ball & bushing die, so I measured the expander ball, and got .262, so that’s what I ordered? I’ve over extended my reloading budget here lately, so I only ordered that one size, but prolly should’ve ordered a size or two above it, & few more below it for when I change brass or bullets, but that’ll have to do for now.

Decide what you want the inside diameter to be. Let’s say .262 .2625 .263 are diameters or “neck tension” you want to try.

Go to Amazon and order 3 pin gauges. One each of those diameters.

Then get mandrels in all three plus/minus another .001 or so. So, .261, .2615, .262, .2625, .263, .2635, .264

Then experiment and find the bushing/non bushing die and mandrel combination that fits the desired pin gauge. Each firing, check it again. Annealing will help it stay pretty close to the same. Not annealing (and even annealed at times) may change the mandrel size you use slightly. Due to hardness and spring back, one firing you might use a .262 and next firing is .2625.

 

[RldrNewby]

Decide what you want the inside diameter to be. Let’s say .262 .2625 .263 are diameters or “neck tension” you want to try.

Go to Amazon and order 3 pin gauges. One each of those diameters.

Then get mandrels in all three plus/minus another .001 or so. So, .261, .2615, .262, .2625, .263, .2635, .264

Then experiment and find the bushing/non bushing die and mandrel combination that fits the desired pin gauge. Each firing, check it again. Annealing will help it stay pretty close to the same. Not annealing (and even annealed at times) may change the mandrel size you use slightly. Due to hardness and spring back, one firing you might use a .262 and next firing is .2625.

Awesome info from all. That should get me goin. Thanks gang!

On the lube, I have some Imperial Dry Neck & the Applicator media I’ve been using prior to bullet seating. Been lining up reloading block with cases, dipping necks in & out a few times, wiping off the outside, then powder charge, followed by bullet seating. Same basic process on necks with lube prior to Mandrel?

 

[Snuby642]

Anyone have any tips on choosing the right size Mandrel? I was getting about 2 thou with my stock expanding ball & bushing die, so I measured the expander ball, and got .262, so that’s what I ordered? I’ve over extended my reloading budget here lately, so I only ordered that one size, but prolly should’ve ordered a size or two above it, & few more below it for when I change brass or bullets, but that’ll have to do for now.

Take your fls dies expander out and chuck it up in a drill or lathe.
Sand it with 2000 grit to finish at -0.004 under bullet diameter. (Mirror finish)

Run a -0.002 mandrell and don't look back.

It will minimize brass differences just do the brass the same each time including virgin brass.(except annealing)

Stop stressing out and making multiple changes. Better time spent adjusting seating depth in small increments that will now show up better.

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[Baron23]

I recently bought some pin gages...didn't need a $300 set of 50 gages....just wanted individual ones and wanted them in .0005 increments, ZZ level of precision, and I just ordered the + as the differences between +/- seemed to be insignificantly small for my application which is not high end, precision, manufacturing go/no go. My friend, @308pirate gave me some good advise on this.

I found individual Vermont Gage sold by Travers Tool for $3-4 dollars each. They seem very fine for what I need wrt to neck ID.

https://www.travers.com/vermont-gage-class-zz-individual-pin-gages/p/118248/?keyword=gage%20pins&lite=true&pricelistname=SITE

Hope this is minimally helpful to someone haha

 

[Baron23]

If you order pin gages from K&M they will still be in the Vermont Gage packaging lol

Wow….and at more than twice the price.

 

[NORCAL50]

First, mandrel to set neck tension; then a good annealer.