In prone with sling (no bag), buttsotck slides down.

[Leam]

Hey all, I could use some wisdom. I'm shooting Appleseeds with a Tippman M4-22 with an Athlon TSP-4 and Luth-AR MBA-3 buttstock. The problem is that if I relax my neck muscles in prone with sling, the weight pushes the buttstock down and I lose the target. How do I keep the buttstock from sliding down? Am I putting too much weight on the cheekpiece?

 

[Trigger Monkey]

What sling are you using? It could be a couple different culprits but without seeing you shoot it's hard to diagnose over the internet without a video or pictures. It could be that you're not using the right kind of sling, it could be that you don't have enough tension on the sling to keep it in the pocket, or it could be your body position isn't optimal. It could also be a combination of the above.

When the sling has the right tension on it and is stable it should be more or less locked into your shoulder so you can put however much weight you want on the stock and it won't move.

 

[MikeMiller]

Your sling needs to be so tight that when you remove your hands it stays in the shoulder without slipping

 

[6.5SH]

What sling are you using? It could be a couple different culprits but without seeing you shoot it's hard to diagnose over the internet without a video or pictures. It could be that you're not using the right kind of sling, it could be that you don't have enough tension on the sling to keep it in the pocket, or it could be your body position isn't optimal. It could also be a combination of the above.

When the sling has the right tension on it and is stable it should be more or less locked into your shoulder so you can put however much weight you want on the stock and it won't move.

Appleseed only suggests the old cotton GI type.

USGI Appleseed Sling - Bison Tactical - Correct USGI sling

Click here to buy the USGI Appleseed Sling, the correct version for Project Appleseed shoots. Avoid the knock-offs that don't work, buy from us.

www.bisontactical.com

 

[MikeMiller]

Far better choices out there than that sling

 

[Trigger Monkey]

Appleseed only suggests the old cotton GI type.

USGI Appleseed Sling - Bison Tactical - Correct USGI sling

Click here to buy the USGI Appleseed Sling, the correct version for Project Appleseed shoots. Avoid the knock-offs that don't work, buy from us.

www.bisontactical.com

It's the "suggested" sling but it's not a requirement that it be the only sling to use.

 

[Oryx]

Why are your neck muscles so tight when you're slung up to shoot? You need to adjust your gear and position to be on target with as little muscle tension as possible. Sling can be tight, just not too tight. When done properly your sights will be on target and will require little to no muscle tension to stay on target

Try to get your position sorted first (without all of the neck tension) and then adjust your rifle and sling to suit. Not sure of your physical condition, as sometimes it is difficult for some people to get comfortable in the position ... it may take some work.

 

[Leam]

I have a bad back, and getting higher is painful. That's why the support arm is not directly under the rifle. The next local Appleseed is in October; I'm working on my position, and ability to stay there. Sling is a simple 1" or so wide strap.

Apologies for the BCG being forward, the rifle is empty. My wife needed to dash out so we did this quickly.

 

[TX_Dan]

I used to use the loop through the buckle to wrap around (just above) my bicep for prone. You can adjust the length easier in position without having to start over each time. Would do this with or without a jacket. Just like Oryx said, with everything set up right, the rifle will stay where it needs to be.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

From the snapshot there and your description I'd say the issues are an "all of the above" type of thing. Since we're working with physical limitations have you thought about using a bipod or sand bag in the front for the prone and using the sling for sitting and kneeling?

 

[MikeMiller]

I have a bad back, and getting higher is painful. That's why the support arm is not directly under the rifle. The next local Appleseed is in October; I'm working on my position, and ability to stay there. Sling is a simple 1" or so wide strap.

Apologies for the BCG being forward, the rifle is empty. My wife needed to dash out so we did this quickly.

Go to seated it is far easier with bad back. My back is broken in two places synthetic disks in back and neck and seated is still fine

 

[Baron23]

Might also want to consider a more sticky butt pad. Just a thought.

 

[Tiger_Shilone]

I have a bad back, and getting higher is painful. That's why the support arm is not directly under the rifle. The next local Appleseed is in October; I'm working on my position, and ability to stay there. Sling is a simple 1" or so wide strap.

Apologies for the BCG being forward, the rifle is empty. My wife needed to dash out so we did this quickly.

kk, my opinionated advice here is all Appleseed driven for rifleman prone position, different from long range precision rifle where you are square behind the rifle for the majority of posts on this forum board. In other words you are using just your body and sling, no bags or bipod or other type of rest/support.

Elbows too far apart making your head too low causing head droop. Can’t see your left leg in photo, doesn’t look like you have the left knee at 60-80 degrees for the figure 4 position. the more forward you get your left knee (assuming your left handed from pic) the more it lifts your ribcage and turns your body/head so you can breath and “ turkey neck” your head for a better sight picture.

Sling is also way to far down the upper arm and not in a sling arm cuff loop configuration. I’ve had my arm cuff loops so tight on my upper arm above the bicep before that it starts to cut off blood circulation (but I was in great npoa and didn’t want to change anything in those times). I’ve used several sling types and have settled on either a leather 1903 style or a Magpul MS1 for slung shooting. I like the wider 1.25” webbing vs 1 “ webbing.

Your bad back/injuries may limit your range of motion at this time. Be sure to let the instructors know as they might have helpful advise on work-arounds to assist you.

Once you finally get properly set up in prone it may not be comfortable, but should be stable and able to hold position without using muscle. If you are getting tired in prone position, you are not set up properly. Rifle sight picture should be very stable in prone, at 25 meters breathing cycle should move sights vertically up and down on the target about an inch in my case with very little to no side movement. I move about a quarter inch side to side about 10 degrees off perpendicular from top to bottom in my breathing cycle. Appleseed instructors usually demonstrate this technique with a empty rifle stock with a laser pointer taped in it aimed at a paper target and it’s very apparent when he is and isn’t in a stable position.

 

[lash]

Great informed post.

 

[Tiger_Shilone]

Deceptively simple pic, but is the picture form of what I said above, look at how high his head/shoulders are and how the body is turned. Compared to what I see in your pic you appear almost flat with no body roll/turn. Unfortunately I don’t have a side view showing sling and elbow positioning.

 

[Tiger_Shilone]

Lighting is terrible for this pic, but again look at how high he is off the ground. Not about comfort, it is stability we want. You should be able to drop your trigger hand to the ground and the rifle should stay planted in your shoulder pocket if you have proper sling tension

 

[Leam]

Far better choices out there than that sling

I am pretty open on this, but don't know nearly enough yet.

 

[Leam]

Why are your neck muscles so tight when you're slung up to shoot? You need to adjust your gear and position to be on target with as little muscle tension as possible. Sling can be tight, just not too tight. When done properly your sights will be on target and will require little to no muscle tension to stay on target

Try to get your position sorted first (without all of the neck tension) and then adjust your rifle and sling to suit. Not sure of your physical condition, as sometimes it is difficult for some people to get comfortable in the position ... it may take some work.

Good point! I have a few weeks to get ready for the next Appleseed; backing up my training targets to the barest basics should help.

 

[Leam]

From the snapshot there and your description I'd say the issues are an "all of the above" type of thing. Since we're working with physical limitations have you thought about using a bipod or sand bag in the front for the prone and using the sling for sitting and kneeling?

There's a longer answer to this. I'm not sure if it's interesting, so skip it if it bores you.

I've been thinking about LodeRunner's comment on https://brushbeater.org/2017/11/26/practical-carbine-accuracy-off-the-bench-and-in-the-field/; the short quote is that to be a sniper you must first be a rifleman. Not just read a lot of books, and think about it a great deal over the past few years, but to be able to put good theory into actionable practice. I like the *idea* of being a sniper, but I'm not really a rifleman yet. I've chosen Appleseed as my next big step in fixing that. It's not tacti-cool, it's not run and gun, just basic riflemanship and weapon handling. (And great history!) That means Standing, Sitting/Kneeling, and Prone shooting with just a sling.

After that, we'll see what options are available. But right now I need to really focus on the basics.

 

[Leam]

Might also want to consider a more sticky butt pad. Just a thought.

I probably will, but right now I think most of the issues are with me, not the hardware.

 

[MikeMiller]

There's a longer answer to this. I'm not sure if it's interesting, so skip it if it bores you.

I've been thinking about LodeRunner's comment on https://brushbeater.org/2017/11/26/practical-carbine-accuracy-off-the-bench-and-in-the-field/; the short quote is that to be a sniper you must first be a rifleman. Not just read a lot of books, and think about it a great deal over the past few years, but to be able to put good theory into actionable practice. I like the *idea* of being a sniper, but I'm not really a rifleman yet. I've chosen Appleseed as my next big step in fixing that. It's not tacti-cool, it's not run and gun, just basic riflemanship and weapon handling. (And great history!) That means Standing, Sitting/Kneeling, and Prone shooting with just a sling.

After that, we'll see what options are available. But right now I need to really focus on the basics.

Sir it all starts with training so your on your way
I started in Across the Course right out of Sniper School, then Palma and ended up shooting FTR after my sniper days were over

I made a living for 20 years shooting and making slings. Now I am semi retired just teaching shooting

 

[Oryx]

This may be helpful in building your position. It takes some time and practice to get it right while paying attention to the little things that make a difference on target.

The practice on getting this set up properly will also help your body get used to things and become more "comfortable". With a bad back, I'd also recommend a stretching routine to loosen things up a bit.

CMP - First Shot Online!

Good luck in the appleseed.

 

[Leam]

Sir it all starts with training so your on your way
I started in Across the Course right out of Sniper School, then Palma and ended up shooting FTR after my sniper days were over

I made a living for 20 years shooting and making slings. Now I am semi retired just teaching shooting

Hey Mike, thanks! I had to look up what FTR is, and found the 2013 interview with you and Stan. Great Stuff! I guess after I make Rifleman in Appleseed that I need to check out your training schedule.

 

[Leam]

This may be helpful in building your position. It takes some time and practice to get it right while paying attention to the little things that make a difference on target.

The practice on getting this set up properly will also help your body get used to things and become more "comfortable". With a bad back, I'd also recommend a stretching routine to loosen things up a bit.

CMP - First Shot Online!

Good luck in the appleseed.

Wow, nice article! I'll study it after church today.