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Indian or Harley
- Thread starter Maggot
- Start date
I rode Harleys for more than 40 years, and have been all over the U.S. .......last one I had was a 2012 Street Glide, sold it in 2016.............too many idiots on the roads in the large city I live in.
I am thinking about another one, and if I buy one it may very well be some version of this:
www.bmwmotorcycles.com
I am thinking about another one, and if I buy one it may very well be some version of this:
K 1600 B
With its legendary six-cylinder engine, the BMW K 1600 B combines high-quality performance touring and casual cruising in typical bagger style.
www.bmwmotorcycles.com
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The days of air cooled engines are about dead, hard to get them to pass current emissions. A little like carbs, about dead. Street legal bikes are FI and water cooled, just the way things are now.
I'll ride a used one then. If radiators are the only way forward, then Harley-Davidson is finished as a company. Air cooled engines are as much a part of Harley-Davidson as every other design feature.
Fuel injection is fine; I'm not a luddite. But a water cooled motorcycle is something different. It lacks the simplicity that makes Harleys American and different from their competitors. Water cooled is obviously better technology, but I'm not riding a motorcycle to show off fancy technology.
I honestly think emissions or no emissions, H-D would have a good argument that creating rules that destroyed their brand was wrong. A Harley with a radiator is not an American motorcycle, it's just another motorcycle. I know I didn't choose to ride a Harley to ride just another motorcycle. If it's just a shinier version of a Honda, what good is it to me? I have no desire to ride that.
There will always be a market for a big, heavy, stable, air cooled bike with lots of chrome.
Indian,
fantastic bikes, powerful, nimble, built really well, more American parts plus the history of the company and it's decision not to make money off of ww2 sales to the gov't is icing. I had a scout that looked like a resto mod bike akin to the 20s and it turned heads everywhere I went.
they are just better built
next one I get is going to be a cruiser with bluetooth etc etc.
gotta see if I have a pic handy to upload
fantastic bikes, powerful, nimble, built really well, more American parts plus the history of the company and it's decision not to make money off of ww2 sales to the gov't is icing. I had a scout that looked like a resto mod bike akin to the 20s and it turned heads everywhere I went.
they are just better built
next one I get is going to be a cruiser with bluetooth etc etc.
gotta see if I have a pic handy to upload
I doubt harley has that card in their deck, we are an American Icon so you can't make us pass emissions like everyone else. They already played the "american" card, and that deck is now empty. They killed the best electric bike on the planet, Alta and they are going to die a long slow death.
Personally I am not a fan of HD, I hate that companies practices, I lump them into a group of other things that have crazy fan followings, Apple, John Deere, Ruger 10-22, AR pattern rifles (this is a gun forum). The way those companies do business turns my stomach, and their fan club is just so rabid. I don't really mind the product itself, but that fan club is the problem.
Harley's issue is Harley. They made their bed and now they are to sleep in it.
This is a pretty interesting video on them.
There are several motorcycle companies that make air cooled bikes, inluding Indian and BMW.
I would never buy one, but that is my thing.
I'd rather not have my bike overheating while waiting in traffic in South Texas.
Indian did sell bikes for WW2, just not near as many as Harley.
Both of my Indians will be on the market soon
Times are tough
If they don't have that card in their deck, they are finished. People do not ride Harley-Davidson motorcycles because they are "the best" or because they've out-competed their competitors. People ride them because of their brand. They are a symbol of Americanism just like Wicnhester/Remington rifles, John Deere/Caterpillar, ARs, Nascar and baseball. A motorcycle with a radiator is not "American" no matter where it's made. Such a machine is just another motorcycle. If H-D doesn't understand that about their product enough to lobby to defend their brand from being regulated out of existence, we will be talking about the good old days of simple American motorcycles while watching the Japanese ones pass us on the road.
The fan club IS the brand. Without the brand, it's just two wheels and an engine. Riding a Harley-Davidson is not about getting from A to B, getting there fast, efficiently, or whatever. It's about doing it with a certain style--one you don't seem to value much.
You can dig a hole with anything, but people buy Caterpillar boots and put their license frames on their trucks. I don't see that happening with Komatsu.
BTW: I haven't watched NASCAR in decades, but this is the same crap that happened when they allowed Toyota into their brand. They didn't have the balls to tell them that their money was unwelcome in that community and no thanks. This is no different. If they think they're going to market Harleys to 20 somethings who want to ride motorcycles with a radiator, they've alienated their fans to the point that they might as well just close down.
Indian is just as American as H-D in their brand image. That's why the name was still valuable even after the company failed numerous times.
I don't think that I need to tell you that nobody is mistaking a BMW motorcycle for an American one. Air cooled is a necessary, but not sufficient condition. Every company has made an air cooled bike at some point, I'm sure. But the particular combination of the 90 degree v twin, firing on the same revolution, air cooled, OHV, etc., is the brand, not just one simple design feature.
I am not going to tell you what kind of bike to ride, but I also don't think it's going to save the H-D brand to try to compete with whoever you're buying a bike from.
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I think you can say it is about a certain style with any bike. I ride a big fat ADV bike, too darn heavy for off road really, and too tall for the highway, and all the idiots that ride those things look like a rolling traffic cone on their way to starbucks. That is the image in ones mind. 99% of those people the "long way around" is going home a different way from the coffee shop, yet the bike has a ton of gizmos that looks like it is ready to cross africa. You can say that about really any "type" of bike, they are more "personal" I guess I will say over a car. And you can say that about any class of bike, you have people that drift to the stereotype, and you know what, fine, I am very cool for that. Do your own thing.
The issue with Harley is they have painted themselves in a corner. They have ONE bike....a Harley, they are all the same, just larger and smaller versions of the same. When they try to do something else, step out of that corner, they get paint on their shoes, that paint is their very loyal and aging fan base screaming "THAT IS NOT AMERICAN" or "that is not a HD". So that fizzles and dies. Every model that they come out with that tries to get them out of that corner THEY painted themselves into is dead in short order. Their smaller inline bikes, dead pulled from the market.
It is not a HD. So they are really stuck. What they needed to do is in the late 80's early 90's when they are going like gang busters they needed to spin off another brand. The Honda Acura, Toyota Lexus type deal. Yes it is still just a toyota, but no it is a lexus. And have that under another brand. They tried years ago with the Aermachi, the company that made the little dual sports back in the 70's. One of John Travolta's first gigs was in a HD commercial for those bikes.....I will try to find it, bet it is on youtube. But they failed, because again not HD. This should have told them back then that the HD brand is linked hard and fast to a specific kind of motorcycle, you need to start up a new thing. Just like Lexus and Acura. And if you had that brand you could leave the HD for just the "HD type bike" and the other "company" for things like the E-motorcycle, E-bikes, anything else like that.....the Pan-Am. Another great bike that is just going to die on the vine.
The thing is the 20 somethings are going to be buying long after their existing fans are dirt. They need that market, and they have zero share of it. New riders don't want a HD, it has nothing to do with the motorcycle it is the image they have crafted. Again that video touches on this, Honda is marketing to moms, and tennis players, and harley is marketing to guys that fart and punch you in the face. He said what is super cool to one generation is uncool to the next, that is dads bike, I don't want that.
This is fun, but I have rambled on for a long time here.
But to sum things up, I don't devalue that specific style, quite the different I am very cool with you out on the road on two wheels, my only gripe with a "style" of riders is likely squids, those people are going to do more harm to motorcycles then a gaggle of open piped HD's going 10 under in the fast lane on the highway.
HD's issue is that very image that is so hard into people like yourself (it seems) so set that a HD is this, and nothing else. Well we know from sales that most the people buying new bikes don't want what they want to sell, and if they try something new, there are people screaming THIS IS NO HARLEY.
The way I see it the only way for them to survive is to spin off models that are not HD like into a different company. All you need to do is look at Buell, the bikes are doing well, but not HD, HD buys them and kills them off as "not making money".....no it was something that was not HD, so they killed it.
I don't think they're stuck at all. People WANT what they're selling. People pay as much for their product as their competitors, even though their competitors do not have the institutional inertia you describe and can change things, can change technologies, do substantial redesigns, etc.
I agree with you totally on the next point. Bikes with radiators and reverse are not "American" regardless of where manufactured. They are not Harley-Davidsons. And I don't want one now or ever. If you want to ride those, that's fine with me, but you will not see me riding that now or ever. But I view this as a feature, not a bug. Simple and strong is the American way. Let the Germans or the Japanese complicate things for whatever perceived benefit there is and market that to you. I'm an American. I want simple and strong.
HD's mistake was killing Buell. If you wanted to spin off smaller or different bikes, that was the brand to do it. They killed that and now they're trying to market smaller and lighter bikes under the HD brand. Sorry, not sorry, no interest, not a Harley, try again.
If HD's only hope is to market crap that Harley riders do not want to people who aren't seriously considering an American, air-cooled type motorcycle, then let them die.
And you're damn right. Harley is simple, OHV, air-cooled, American heavy motorcycles. They survived for GENERATIONS while the Japanese and others marketed little toy water cooled bikes to other kinds of riders. There was even a time when Harley-Davidsons made up the MAJORITY of motorcycles ridden by Americans, despite there being a robust market where all that other garbage was available.
I agree with you totally about the brand, too. Harley-Davidson would be absolute morons to try to sell us jap bikes under that name. But if they want to spin it off in to something else that 1) won't destroy their brand and 2) allows them to cash in on a market that Harley-Davidson has no business being in, then so be it.
Until then, keep your fucking radiators off my American motorcycles and sell that shit to someone else.
You’re right about HD being its fanbase and its fanbase being HD. You’re also right about why people ride HD: style over everything else. But you’re missing a key point. HD is bleeding to death because their fanbase is aging out of the market. Up until very recently HD doubled down on marketing their bikes as Easy Rider Americana. But fashion trends change, ebbing and flowing with each decade. HD has refused to accept that market demand may change over time, thus alienating younger new riders who opt for cheaper, lighter, more reliable Japanese and german alternatives. Most people my age can’t afford a $20k HD, and would rather get a $10k Yamaha that makes 3x power with half the maintenance cost. And this is just talking about new bikes from dealerships. HDs may have been decent bikes in the past, and may still hold curb appeal today, but curb appeal won’t sell $20k bikes to gen x and millennials in 2022.
I used to ride. I've ridden a few different types of bikes. I won't deny that the nicest ride I had was on a '97 Road King.
Back when I was able, I was gearing up to build myself a bike. Starting with making a frame. It was going to be a V-Twin but NOT a Harley. Start with a Merch engine and go from there. There are MANY viable and good things about many Harley designs. But that copyright thing and 'name' and such I couldn't care less about.
So in the end, my bike was going to be everything BUT a Harley. Alas.... an 18 y/o girl in oncoming traffic changed all that.
Back when I was able, I was gearing up to build myself a bike. Starting with making a frame. It was going to be a V-Twin but NOT a Harley. Start with a Merch engine and go from there. There are MANY viable and good things about many Harley designs. But that copyright thing and 'name' and such I couldn't care less about.
So in the end, my bike was going to be everything BUT a Harley. Alas.... an 18 y/o girl in oncoming traffic changed all that.
Have ridden many kinds, cruisers to crotch rockets.
Only one that catches my attention these days:
R
Only one that catches my attention these days:
R
I'm not wrong about that at all. If that's what has to happen, then that should happen. Harley-Davidson has over a hundred year history. It can't just abandon all that matters about Harley-Davidson to appeal to a market that it can never capture. Air cooled, OHV, simple American motorycles are not a "fashion trend." They are everything to diehard American motorcycle riders. They are all there is. It's that or nothing. And deviating from that mold will poison the brand in a way that will alienate their loyal fanbase.
I don't know what your age is, but I haven't reached 40 yet, I was riding a Harley-Davidson 14 years ago, and if it's not clear, I have no interest in riding a Yamaha-anything, no matter how much technology changes, no matter how much power they have, or how easy they are to maintain, etc. To me, air-cooled, simple American motorcycles are all there is. I literally don't care about anything else that is out there. It is totally irrelevant.
I find it interesting that you comment about Gen X and Millenials, because I could be either one depending on who you ask. I'm an Xennial.
"square" engine. (isn't that what it was called?)
Yours is the I, II, or III?
And completely as an aside, but the frame I was planning was stainless tubing. I had spoken to Mert Lawwil on the phone and arranged with him the sharing of the design for the 4-Link suspension (Street Tracker) but I was going to do a 'writ larg' version.
But I digress..... (this topic is about as bad as catching a whiff of race fuel....)
Yours is the I, II, or III?
And completely as an aside, but the frame I was planning was stainless tubing. I had spoken to Mert Lawwil on the phone and arranged with him the sharing of the design for the 4-Link suspension (Street Tracker) but I was going to do a 'writ larg' version.
But I digress..... (this topic is about as bad as catching a whiff of race fuel....)
It’s a 120.
I bought the grunt model as I was running a sidecar at the time.
Shame hadn’t turned over in more than ten years.
I fear all the o- rings are dried out and cracked.
Likely will pour oil when I fire it up.
They were a Louisiana company when I bought it.
I bought the grunt model as I was running a sidecar at the time.
Shame hadn’t turned over in more than ten years.
I fear all the o- rings are dried out and cracked.
Likely will pour oil when I fire it up.
They were a Louisiana company when I bought it.
yeah, that ol' thing. No good anymore. Would need to be completely rebuilt and you know how THAT goes. I guess I could go as far as $50.00 but YOU gots-ta pay shipping and I guess I'll see if I can squeeze anything out of it.
If I have to.....
old, rusty, leaking, wore-out,,,, dusty....lots and lots of dusty.... but I'm feeling generous.
If I have to.....
old, rusty, leaking, wore-out,,,, dusty....lots and lots of dusty.... but I'm feeling generous.
I don't think enough people want what they are selling, and this is easy to prove by looking at their sales numbers. We can go with a "well if it sells well they would not cancel it" and we can look back at the smaller entry level bikes they have killed in the past few years the "smaller" street series, gone things like the Vrod gone. All fantastic bikes, and bikes the brand needs to get to a wider base of riders. They are gone because they did not sell. If they sold and made the company money they would still be with us, but they are not.
Now the question is why......why did they not sell. They are not "bad" bikes. So why did enough people not buy them.
This is where the "paint themselves into a corner" comes in.
You said it, it is not a HD. You would not buy it as you are a (I assume) a traditionalist. You want the HD to BE AN HD. Those smaller bikes are not that. So their core buyers left them on the showroom floor. Ok how about something like the long dead XR1200, how much more HD can you get then that, yea it carries the XR name famous throughout time. But at the time it is introduced that core buyer is in his 50's. That is not what he wants in a HD, he will look at it and remember Evel Knivel flying over this that or the other he saw on Wide World of Sports back when he was a teen, see that XR 750 under Evil and look at that new XR1200 and see that spirit in there......he will sit on it in the showroom floor, go down memory lane, Then get off and go buy the Dyna he came in for. And a great many others will do that same thing, enough that harley killed the bike after just 5 years.
The same thing will happen to the Pan American, riding ADV type bikes I can speak first hand at this. It was out when I bought my Africa Twin. I sat on it and rode it.....fantastic bike, cool features......but......it is a Harley Davidson. That brand carries so much with it that I do not care for. Fine you say don't buy it. But that is the issue. It is not that I am not buying it because I did not like the bike, I am not buying it because of the HD image, and a little bit of will that model get killed in short order as so many like yourself see that bike as not a HD. If you followed all that you see what I am trying to say by painting themselves in a corner.
Yes huge mistake killing Buell, This could have been the "catch all" brand. Their dead wire....err live wire is DOA, not a harley. All of these things outside the HD "box" could have been done under the Buell brand, but HD saw that as competition and had to buy it up and kill it to make it go away, and that is the HD business model, you can't compete so do whatever you can to protect your brand, including trying to trademark a sound.
The stereotype of the "junky" HD is really something that is very hard to shake, this came to full bloom during the AMF years, and has been gone for what...50 years now. Most people looking to buy a HD never seen an AMF harley outside a classic bike show. The quality is on par with any other company. Yea the mark its area jokes are still there, but it is a thing of the past, and the 20-40 are the buyers you need, 50's and over are not going to be buying anymore. To them that is dads or grand dads bike. That is not cool. No matter what HD does, they hung onto that "image" of what a HD is, up to not long ago.....remember the black sheep ad, they double down on that image, but that is not what new motorcycle buyers want.
Like the child said in the video I linked, HD is on the table with its heart just moving, will it go away, nope. What will happen, the same thing that happened to Chrysler, it will get just so bad someone somewhere else will buy them up. And then will your HD be just as american as your dodge pickup?
I think you will see inside the next 10 years harley be sold to one of the large japanese brands, and it will be like Indian, or should I say victory, or perhaps I should say Polaris, or even Bombardier. I could see it becoming something like the "star" brand was under Yamaha, or another company under Kawasaki, or I should say kawasaki heavy industries.....you could go on and on. This is what I think will happen to harley, and the only way that brand will continue to live.
I have a very strong feeling that other big companies like those I talked about above are looking very hard at the public reaction of Dodge really being a Fiat. How are their hard core fans taking that, Mopar fans are not unlike HD fans. They are watching that close and seeing if they think that HD under some foreign company will still be tenable.
And that is another fun discussion to have.
HD cannot survive on their 'core buyers' and disagree on 'junky perception' as their warranty numbers are not small in relation to peers. HD is just not a well made bike, lacks power, and marketing for HD is absurd in that the mkt has changed and they haven't. I agree on Buell but it was not the right bike for that catch all or that specific mkt. I liked it but in comparison to it's peers, it wasn't a good option
Polaris owns Indian and agree that HD will probably end up like them in that some larger company will own the brand down the line.
I think those who are on the "Harley-Davidson is dying and its fanbase are never coming back" are just wishful thinkers. Harley-Davidson and American heavy motorcycles aren't going anywhere. They may need a marketing reboot. All the blue collar trades need the same thing. But iconic pieces of Americanism like Winchester, Colt, Remington, and Harley-Davidson are never going anywhere. The accountants and MBAs can say whatever they want. People like me will want to be riding their bad bike into the sunset until there is no more USA for us to waive the flag.
Harley-Davidson is to the motorcycle world what Remington 700 is to the precision rifle world.
Change my mind.
Change my mind.
And Fast as Fuck ! But Harley’s have the torque and cool factor.
I was looking into buy a Harley. Went through the website and saw prices of all the models and said "eh not too bad"
What changed is when I went to the dealerships and dealer websites. 10k markup on all models from msrp, used models a modest 7k from msrp.
I can't see myself supporting that kind of business practice
What changed is when I went to the dealerships and dealer websites. 10k markup on all models from msrp, used models a modest 7k from msrp.
I can't see myself supporting that kind of business practice
I haven’t seen that here but I haven’t been looking much at new bikes, either.
My Low Rider I bought used, but only had 250 miles on it.
I know their dealers are struggling and a few around me have closed.
They sell to those who want to look cool. That's it.
Anyone who rides and understands specs ends up on a jap bike.
Why can't Harley make a decent water cooled bike with a hell of a lot more power, quieter, and more comfortable? They could even market it as a separate model from the air cooled, anemic, loud as fuck model!
They will die because they've only ever made one product. They have zero interest in expanding the product line if the changes are more than which bags and fairings you get.
Once the boomers die off they'd better hope their t-shirt sales stay strong.
fortnine has a pretty good video
i was always anti-harley, so when the time came that i finally realized that my body doesn't like crotch rockets anymore, i naturally went to the local Indian dealer. they are some of the biggest fucking cunts ive dealt with that they almost made me go HD they had me so mad. then i found my current bike while i was shopping around. thank god for the triumph tiger 900 rally pro.
i was always anti-harley, so when the time came that i finally realized that my body doesn't like crotch rockets anymore, i naturally went to the local Indian dealer. they are some of the biggest fucking cunts ive dealt with that they almost made me go HD they had me so mad. then i found my current bike while i was shopping around. thank god for the triumph tiger 900 rally pro.
They have been making that bike for 20 years now if you really want one. The one I rode 15+ years ago had 120 horsepower; I'm sure they're more now. They sound like shit and they have a peaky engine that feels slower than a traditional Harley-Davidson even though they are much faster once you wind the motor up to 6,000 RPM. It sounds like it'd be for you. I thought it was terrible and couldn't wait to return it.
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