Info Request: .22LR Barrel Length for CCI Mini-Mag (Also what exactly is a CCI Mini-Mag?)

[FailureToStart]

I've done quite a bit of searching between here, Rimfire Central and some other locations. Unfortunately some of these forums have undergone some software changes over the years and "OMG CHECK OUT THE DATA IN THIS POST!" links generally leads to the front page of said forums due to being out-dated.

I've seen a lot of posts from memory suggesting that 16" is pretty optimal for standard .22LR with the CCI stinger is a noted exception that keeps gaining speed out to around 22"

Most of the 'standard' stuff seems to be around 1000FPS with the Stingers around 1600FPS. I don't know what length these figures are measured from since no one lists that sort of data anymore. CCI Mini-Mags are shown at 1200FPS.

My question basically comes down to this: How does CCI achieve the extra 200FPS on the Mini-Mag, and what effect (if any) does that have on having enough barrel length to achieve a full burn on the powder? Are Mini-Mags a kin to the Hornady Superformance loadings where a blended powder is used to achieve higher muzzle velocity out of the same length barrel or would running them through a 16" barrel result in unburnt powder exiting the muzzle due to an entirely different type of powder?

 

[Pinecone]

MiniMag is CCIs name for their basic High Velocity ammunition.

 

[RTH1800]

Watch out for mini mags, they are barrel burners.

 

[FailureToStart]

They load them hot.

Now when they rate a speed on a given round, its based off a set barrel length.

A barrel that they have...so obviously its not your barrel or possibly even same length.

There is no rule that says one manufacturer has to test and rate using one length while its competitor can't use another.

Also, they may use a match quality barrel...a barrel with tighter seal on the bullet potentially giving more speed than a run of the mill production grade barrel.

If I understand you correctly, you wish to use Mini-mags specifically because they are fast?

And that you want to optimize that speed to its fullest extent?

My question to you is why? What is the gain of it when you have hotter rimfire cartridges already available to you that will give better ballistic and terminal performance and likely can be purchased cheaper than building and tuning a custom rifle?

To answer your main question, the easiest way to know for certain you maximizing your particular barrels performance is start out with a long barrel and gradually cut it down. But then there will be a point where you could cut too much and there's no way of knowing exactly when that is.

There is no guarantee either your barrel will even "like" Mini-mags as it has has been shown some rifles definitely have a preference no matter how much we wish it otherwise.

What is the intended purpose of this rifle that it needs uber performance out of such a small cartridge?

Loaded hot, but not Stinger hot. I think I got it.

Manufacturer unknown quantity testing conditions for marketing BS - Got it. Believe me, I effing HATE seeing FPS numbers without a test fixture specification of any sort listed. I sorely miss the days of "Here is my data. Buy my shit because its better, and I dare my competition to beat me."

You misunderstand, I wish to use Mini-Mags because I have them. I have them because they function in Semi-Autos and I never imagined I'd end up with a 'nice' .22LR bolt gun. My quest is not so much one of speed, but of complete powder burn. I don't wish to sand blast whatever may or may not be in front of the muzzle with unburnt .22LR powder. One way or another the barrel is getting threaded. The question becomes: Do I get it chopped, and how long do I get it chopped to? If all I had was standard velocity ammo, I'd cut it at 16" and forget about it. Since the ammo is faster, for reasons unknown to me (burn duration vs charge pressure), I'm looking to see if I should err on the side of caution and stop at 18" or possibly not cut at all.

MiniMag is CCIs name for their basic High Velocity ammunition.

I know what CCI Mini-Mags are as a basic concept. What I don't know is how they achieve that higher velocity. Simply saying they are "hot" doesn't help.

Watch out for mini mags, they are barrel burners.

Explain? That would either imply that they are in fact higher pressure loads, or that the copper jacketing is hard on barrels for some reason.


I don't reload so I won't even try to get into accurate terminology. I'm talking about two fairly simple concepts:
#1 A charge that burns for a longer duration which requires more barrel length to fully burn
vs
#2 A charge that produces a higher over-all pressure but burns out in the same length of barrel as a 'standard' load (supposedly like Hornady Superformance).

 

[bjay]

My sig 522 16" shoot mini mag 100yard 1" most of the tym...im ok with its for fun a gun from 15yd to 100 only

 

[G60]

Chrono data from my 10/22 with 16" Feddersen Barrel, 10 shot averages, all at 97 degrees F:
CCI Mini Mag 36gr: 1269fps
Federal Lightning 40gr: 1201fps
Winchester 333 value pack 36gr: 1249fps
Eley Target 40gr: 1070fps.

As you can see, the Mini Mags are fast, but considering the Winchester 333 pack is only 20fps slower, they're not really that special, or "high speed" like Stingers.
I will note that for me, the Mini Mags shot the worst groups out of all those rounds.

 

[cjd223]

Glad you guys sweep the floor every night. Glock/Smyrna had an unfortunate accident at their indoor range a few years back.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

some oldies:

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-rimfire-section/65127-shortening-barrel-length.html

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...udget-22-sil-rifle-trainer-barrel-length.html

using the savage mkii as the guinea pig, cutting from the stock length to 17", there was an initial drop of aroound 30 to 50 ish FPS on HV and standard velocity ammos after the first inch, then after that the drop in velocity was negligable. it wasn't minimags used for the HV, but blazers which is sort of in the same FPS family as the minimags.

running the same ammos through a marlin 25n 22", no significant increase in velocity.

other than the better sight picture for using open sights with a longer barrel, i can't really see a need for anything over 20" except maybe using stingers, velocitors, etc. my groups actually shrunk at 18", even more at 17" using HV and standard vel with a small drop in velocity, so i assume full powder burn is somewhere in the 19" range using HV. seemingly more beneficial on paper going shorter.

they say the longer barrel is also quieter, if that's your thing, but i haven't had any experience with a REALLY long barreled rimfire barrel to confirm that.

once the powder is burnt, your not going to gain anything, and there is talk that after 24" there is drag on the bullet actually slowing it down.

the term "speed kills" is BS, accuracy kills. doesn't matter how fast it is, if it's inconsistant (destabilizing / transonic stuff) and not hitting minute of squirrel head, what does it matter how much "flatter" HV shoots. clicking a little more adjustment is better off in the long run using SV / match / subsonic stuff over 25Y to several hundred yards.

most of your rimfire powders are Vihtavuori, from the 20.00 a box lapua to the cheapest of bulk ammos. it's usually the generic universal rimfire stuff, so no real blending or special powders used, they just put more in the case, cram in a lighter bullet, or put a larger amount of priming compound to give it extra "umph" or a combination of the three.

 

[RTH1800]

Barrel burners was a joke.
About velocity, it is a huge advantage in field shooting for the flattened trajectory and killing power. The ability to take the shot without needing to know the exact range will gain many kills over the course of a season. The fast loads kill quicker as well. But, the downside is that very few rifles shoot the HV or hyper velocity with adiquite accuracy to get the job done. If you find a HV round/rifle combination that shoots with high accuracy, load up on all of that ammo you can find. It is a treasure. And it does happen. I once had a 30's vintage 52 sporter with an old Ziess scope that was deadly accurate with the first group of CCI Stingers that came out. About the best set up I ever had. I am now hunting with a 52 C standard weight and Eley 10X and a 6x Unertl due to extreme accuracy. As a plus, the 28" barrel is about silent with the standard velocity. I get many more shots after the first on with the quiet rifle/ammo combination.
That is what makes rimfire so fun, you can always learn something new.

 

[FailureToStart]

I guess I'm having trouble with the concept of the question.

You want complete powder burn.

Why?

Or maybe better worded....why do you feel this is important?

Have you heard something we have not in terms of bore condition (containing fouling) in regards to inherent accuracy or bore life?

I'm not sure what is meant by "sand blasting with unburned powder"....gun shot residue will always exit the barrel when a round is fired.

The round is like a cork on a bottle...once the pressure of the fired cartridge has reached the point to unseat the bullet and send it down the bore, that flaming hot gas and powder must go somewhere (out the muzzle).

I'm sure the odd manner a rimfire cartridge is fired (striking the rim) makes for uneven burn rate from cartridge to cartridge since the liquid state of the priming compound could theoretically be different from one side of rhe case to the other as it dries during production.

I understand that there will always be shit exiting the barrel in addition to the bullet - that is a given. Eventually as you cut back on barrel length you will run into a point where the barrel is shorter than the cartridge's designed burn length. If you're real close to the cutoff, say with a 16" .308, you'd be amazed how easy it is for a slightly over-charged round or a non-standard "high velocity" round to barf out shit that is still very much on fire, which in turn runs the risk of setting your environs on fire.

In the above example, the standard load is rated at 2700FPS and will rarely barf significant amounts of burning propellant. The Hornady Superformance version of the same load is rated at 2840FPS and it has roughly the same chance of putting out burning powder. The load is designed to achieve the higher velocity by maintaining higher pressures with a blended powder which burns over the same length. The Federal P308TT2 is rated at 2880FPS and will barf out stuff that is on fire most of the time. The difference is in the method of creating the charge used to produce the higher velocities. If the Mini-Mag achieves its higher velocity using methods similar to the Hornady Supeformance then I'm probably ok. If the increased velocity is more like the P308TT2 then I could be paying extra money for a problem I don't want.

Its bad enough when 1/100 gets the tarp smouldering, its an entirely different story when you stop after the 5th round because every round has actually set the thing on fire. Shooting a 16" AR with M193 from prone is fine, shooting an 11.5" AR with the same ammo is typically not so fine. With my .308 I was testing factory loads and only had a box or two of the problematic ammo. For the purpose of this thread I already have a non-trivial amount of the ammo so any adjustment needs to be made (or not made) on the gun side of the equation.

Ever seen what comes out of an SBR HK-91 that is short enough to take MP5 furnature? In addition to a projectile that isn't remotely stable you also have this mass of flaming propellant that reminds me of the flares coming off a C130.

some oldies:

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-rimfire-section/65127-shortening-barrel-length.html

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...udget-22-sil-rifle-trainer-barrel-length.html

using the savage mkii as the guinea pig, cutting from the stock length to 17", there was an initial drop of aroound 30 to 50 ish FPS on HV and standard velocity ammos after the first inch, then after that the drop in velocity was negligable. it wasn't minimags used for the HV, but blazers which is sort of in the same FPS family as the minimags.

running the same ammos through a marlin 25n 22", no significant increase in velocity.

other than the better sight picture for using open sights with a longer barrel, i can't really see a need for anything over 20" except maybe using stingers, velocitors, etc. my groups actually shrunk at 18", even more at 17" using HV and standard vel with a small drop in velocity, so i assume full powder burn is somewhere in the 19" range using HV. seemingly more beneficial on paper going shorter.

they say the longer barrel is also quieter, if that's your thing, but i haven't had any experience with a REALLY long barreled rimfire barrel to confirm that.

once the powder is burnt, your not going to gain anything, and there is talk that after 24" there is drag on the bullet actually slowing it down.

the term "speed kills" is BS, accuracy kills. doesn't matter how fast it is, if it's inconsistant (destabilizing / transonic stuff) and not hitting minute of squirrel head, what does it matter how much "flatter" HV shoots. clicking a little more adjustment is better off in the long run using SV / match / subsonic stuff over 25Y to several hundred yards.

most of your rimfire powders are Vihtavuori, from the 20.00 a box lapua to the cheapest of bulk ammos. it's usually the generic universal rimfire stuff, so no real blending or special powders used, they just put more in the case, cram in a lighter bullet, or put a larger amount of priming compound to give it extra "umph" or a combination of the three.

Awesome post with great independently verifiable information and current links! One of the biggest problems I've had is going through searching and finding links to posts with the old forum addresses which lead back to the front page. Unrelated to the essence of this thread - speed and projectile design can go a long way towards masking poor shoot skills, however there isn't a whole lot of room for that sort of shenanigans on a .22LR. That, coupled with how close everything is to the sound barrier at remarkably close range, I'd say you have two easy options: either exit the muzzle subsonic so you don't have to worry about going transonic, or make damn sure you're supersonic to your target. You can do a lot to mitigate the effects of going transonic on a centerfire rifle, I'd guess that your options are very limited with .22LR.

I'll make the Mini-Mags work until the ammo market comes back to earth then work on some experiments. Until then I'm just flat stuck working around a less than optimal round for this application. It works great out of my M&P 15-22 as a cheap alternative to its larger 5.56 brother but not nearly as well on a "precision trainer" bolt gun.

Barrel burners was a joke.
About velocity, it is a huge advantage in field shooting for the flattened trajectory and killing power. The ability to take the shot without needing to know the exact range will gain many kills over the course of a season. The fast loads kill quicker as well. But, the downside is that very few rifles shoot the HV or hyper velocity with adiquite accuracy to get the job done. If you find a HV round/rifle combination that shoots with high accuracy, load up on all of that ammo you can find. It is a treasure. And it does happen. I once had a 30's vintage 52 sporter with an old Ziess scope that was deadly accurate with the first group of CCI Stingers that came out. About the best set up I ever had. I am now hunting with a 52 C standard weight and Eley 10X and a 6x Unertl due to extreme accuracy. As a plus, the 28" barrel is about silent with the standard velocity. I get many more shots after the first on with the quiet rifle/ammo combination.
That is what makes rimfire so fun, you can always learn something new.

My bad, my sarcasm filter is absolutely destroyed. I couldn't tell if you were joking or if there was something about the round that was rough on barrels. I immediately thought back to the Lee-Metford -> Lee-Enfield evolution.

And yes I do learn something new constantly. I never in a million years thought I'd need to worry about barrel length actually making a round 'too fast'. This whole .22 experience and how I came into 'precision' bolt action .22s via a back door from semi-auto trainers at a point in time when ammo is impossible or stupidly expensive to acquire is vastly less than ideal. I'm being frequently reminded that the rules governing what I 'know' about center-fire don't really apply here.

Thanks to everyone for the info!

 

[jbell]

It seems to me that you are trying to find a rifle or at least barrel length for a specific round (mini mags). Well in the rimfire game that is pretty backwards. You should find a rifle and barrel length combo that will suit your needs and then find an ammo that will shoot well and also do what you need it to do. These things are just too picky to be specific on ammo before testing it in your rifle. An if you do find a rifle and ammo combo that shoots well but blows a fire ball out the muzzle then what the hell it still shots well. However that being said a 16"-20" (18" is my choice) barrel will be about right for all ammo out there and you will not lose any performance from the short barrel. For an example my shooting partner shoots a custom CZ 455 with a Lilja 18" barrel and I shoot a Sauer with a 26" (I want to cut it to 18" and thread it for a suppressor but it would kill the value and it shoots WAY TOO GOOD!) with the same ammo he needs quite a bit less elevation from a 50 yd zero to 230 yd center hits than me. I am actually losing velocity with the 26" over the 18". My report is much quieter than his as well...

 

[Redmanss]

I'll make the Mini-Mags work until the ammo market comes back to earth then work on some experiments. Until then I'm just flat stuck working around a less than optimal round for this application. It works great out of my M&P 15-22 as a cheap alternative to its larger 5.56 brother but not nearly as well on a "precision trainer" bolt gun.

Watch Midway, Champion Shooting Supply and Creedmoor Sports, they're both getting good quality match ammunition in, and at near pre-craze prices as well. I've picked up various Eley, Wolf and Lapua ammunition from them, from order to shipment, within the last two months. It's out there, you just have to be quick on the stock notifications to get in line!

 

[bunsen27]

What rifle do you have and what is the current barrel length?

 

[FailureToStart]

The rifle is a CZ455 with a 20" barrel.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

I have a 25 inch barrel on my MPR. I can in fact confirm that a longer barrel makes them quiet. I can also offer this opinion. The longer barrel may even out inconsistencies in your ammo. Just my theory. If you don't have an actual SBR all your powder is burned, you aren't going to set the woods on fire with a 22lr, I don't think.
I knew a guy who destroyed a JP brake in a 308 Encore pistol using liberal charges of stick powder, behind 110gr bullets. Looked like it had been flame cut.

 

[bunsen27]

Champions Choice has been getting regular shipments of target ammo in and is still accepting backorders. I wouldn't touch that CZ barrel until you can put some Wolf or SK Jagd Standard plus through it.