Info request: Out of the box accuracy - CZ455 vs Savage Mk II

[armorpl8chikn]

The question is and always will be: "Does the gun meet your needs and perform the tasks that you demand?" In my opinion Savage makes an absolute top of the line squirrel rifle. I demand more of my 22lr so I won't even look at a Savage. It is true that their accuracy has been embellished and over stated, why I do not know for sure but I have some solid theories. Those theories quite frankly would offend, Savage fanboys, Nightforce fanboys and even Freedom Arms fanboys(yes believe me there are Freedom Arms fanboys). I am not in the habit of running people's equipment down unless they really deserve a good thrashing. I know what I know and try not to let my opinion get in the way of facts. If your equipment fits your need then be happy and shoot. You don't need to prove your budget rifle is a certified giant killer, it is not, no matter how emotionally invested you are in your equipment. Ego is a funny thing, it will often make us skew the test to exact the results we want. Trust me, I have seen people argue with lab equipment and run a test until they get the number they think it should be. I see a lot of this every time we start talking about accuracy potential and group size. Hey its the internet...Bon Jour.
I know what my guns are capable of and what is realistic from day to day. Every once in a while you will hear me roll out a number on a group. I tested some ammo just last Thursday. I did not post my results because I don't want to argue and it is frankly subjective. It means little to anyone except myself. I test my ammo at 200yds FIRST, That is where most of the matches I shoot are won and lost. Look at what people are shooting that win extremely difficult matches. If that is what you need then spend the big eagle and you should get your money's worth. If you just want to plink and fart around then spend a couple hundred and be happy. There are rifles made that need no work right from the box. In the long run, buying cheap and chasing mods and widgets is a waste of time and money. I have tried this approach in almost every game I ever played in the shooting sports. In the long run I was always money behind and lost in those ventures. Buy what you need, ready to roll. Anything else is a false economy.
Testing ammo at 25yds is a bitter waste of ammo. My S&W 22A pistol will shoot itty bitty groups at 25yds...so what.

 

[gjantzer]

I disagree that mods are a waste of time and money. A $20 YoDave trigger kit helped my shooting scores quite a bit. But I do completely agree with you that shooting at 25 yards is a little mundane. Misses and mistakes are often hard to distinguish at 25 yards. At 100 yards your misses and mistakes jump off the paper and smack you in the face. I learn a lot about my shooting at 100 yards. I learn almost nothing when I shoot at 25 yards.

In the long run, buying cheap and chasing mods and widgets is a waste of time and money. I have tried this approach in almost every game I ever played in the shooting sports. In the long run I was always money behind and lost in those ventures. Buy what you need, ready to roll. Anything else is a false economy.


Testing ammo at 25yds is a bitter waste of ammo. My S&W 22A pistol will shoot itty bitty groups at 25yds...so what.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

I disagree that mods are a waste of time and money. A $20 YoDave trigger kit helped my shooting scores quite a bit. But I do completely agree with you that shooting at 25 yards is a little mundane. Misses and mistakes are often hard to distinguish at 25 yards. At 100 yards your misses and mistakes jump off the paper and smack you in the face. I learn a lot about my shooting at 100 yards. I learn almost nothing when I shoot at 25 yards.

I am not saying a 20 dollar trigger job is a bad investment. I hope you aren't trying to twist the meaning of my entire diatribe above. I said a lot more than is quoted here. I have said this before but I guess I will say it again. I may use references some here cannot fathom but it seems germane to the assertions I have made.
I have wasted tons of money trying to make a T/C Contender outshoot a Remington XP. I have wasted tons of money trying to get BR accuracy from out of the box rifles. I wasted a ton on a CZ452 trying to make it outshoot an Anschutz. Without fail I ended up selling at a loss, and buying what I NEEDED. If you don't need it then what I have advised above is still true. There are more accurate rifles than Anschutz but mine serves my need. There is no trigger job for a CZ nor a Savage that will equal an Annie 64MPR out of the box, the triggers on some 54's are even better, legendary in fact. There are tips and tricks that cost little and also net little, that is not what I am talking about. I was on the cusp of rebarrelling my CZ when I decided to cut my losses rather than gamble more money. Had I rebarreled the CZ I would have had over twice what my Annie cost in a rig that may not have shot any better than the Anschutz. Once you get to a certain point with a rimfire there is nowhere else to go, because you are then at the mercy of the ammo, and you can't roll your own. I am glad JBell has been so kind as to post about his Sauer. It is a shining example that you can buy an out of the box rifle for the price of a custom 40x, that equals and possibly exceeds the custom. It is true that it wears a custom pricetag but you may not be able to build a custom 40x as cheap as you can buy a Sauer. This is a perfect example of the point I made above. Oh sure you can build a rifle and make it your own. But the likelihood you are the only one who can appreciate it's price tag, is highly probable.

I can assure you, there is more than one person reading these pages who will shake their head and agree with what I have said. There are more than a few here, who bought a Savage when these threads were ruled by hype and misinformation, that have tried everything under the sun to get what they were promised by various French models hereabouts. A Savage is a great rifle if that is what you need, so is a CZ. They will need more than a bedding job and some trigger work to consistently perform up to snuff with higher end rifles. Excepting a few exceptional examples, you generally get what you pay for in the rimfire world. That applies equally to the rifles and the ammo.If you build it, you may spend as much or more than the price of a high end rimfire, it is a slippery slope that will carry you farther than you wanted to go, and may not obtain the results you wanted. It is easy to let a budget gun, dollar you to death.

 

[bobtodrick]

I am not saying a 20 dollar trigger job is a bad investment. I hope you aren't trying to twist the meaning of my entire diatribe above. I said a lot more than is quoted here. I have said this before but I guess I will say it again. I may use references some here cannot fathom but it seems germane to the assertions I have made.
I have wasted tons of money trying to make a T/C Contender outshoot a Remington XP. I have wasted tons of money trying to get BR accuracy from out of the box rifles. I wasted a ton on a CZ452 trying to make it outshoot an Anschutz. Without fail I ended up selling at a loss, and buying what I NEEDED. If you don't need it then what I have advised above is still true. There are more accurate rifles than Anschutz but mine serves my need. There is no trigger job for a CZ nor a Savage that will equal an Annie 64MPR out of the box, the triggers on some 54's are even better, legendary in fact. There are tips and tricks that cost little and also net little, that is not what I am talking about. I was on the cusp of rebarrelling my CZ when I decided to cut my losses rather than gamble more money. Had I rebarreled the CZ I would have had over twice what my Annie cost in a rig that may not have shot any better than the Anschutz. Once you get to a certain point with a rimfire there is nowhere else to go, because you are then at the mercy of the ammo, and you can't roll your own. I am glad JBell has been so kind as to post about his Sauer. It is a shining example that you can buy an out of the box rifle for the price of a custom 40x, that equals and possibly exceeds the custom. It is true that it wears a custom pricetag but you may not be able to build a custom 40x as cheap as you can buy a Sauer. This is a perfect example of the point I made above. Oh sure you can build a rifle and make it your own. But the likelihood you are the only one who can appreciate it's price tag, is highly probable.

I can assure you, there is more than one person reading these pages who will shake their head and agree with what I have said. There are more than a few here, who bought a Savage when these threads were ruled by hype and misinformation, that have tried everything under the sun to get what they were promised by various French models hereabouts. A Savage is a great rifle if that is what you need, so is a CZ. They will need more than a bedding job and some trigger work to consistently perform up to snuff with higher end rifles. Excepting a few exceptional examples, you generally get what you pay for in the rimfire world. That applies equally to the rifles and the ammo.If you build it, you may spend as much or more than the price of a high end rimfire, it is a slippery slope that will carry you farther than you wanted to go, and may not obtain the results you wanted. It is easy to let a budget gun, dollar you to death.

I completely get you Armor. I bought my Savage because of some of the things I'd read on forums like this.
I bought it because I believe that it is as accurate as the average CZ...and I could put the extra money into mods/accessories that would make it even better.
I got a bit of a rude awakening because it was obvious pretty quickly that though it was easily accurate enough for what I wanted, which was some varmint control and practicing long range shooting (it's a .22WMR...I have a lot of fun trying to shoot 6" plates at 200m on a windy day).
But I was lucky...I realized that it was never going to be bench rest accurate and other than a nice scope and such I didn't sink a lot of money in it.
But I do feel I've got a good gun that suits my needs.
I used to be into cars. I spent some time racing/rallying in my youth. We had the same people there...the ones who would show up with the tricked out Datsun 510 (we're going back to the 70's here) with tons of money invested, and yet were always so frustrated when they couldn't beat my Alfa GTA or a BMW Tii.
Some people just don't want to admit that the top notch equipment (usually expensive) does save money in the long run.