Suppressors integrally suppressed barrel ?
- Thread starter 1shot2kill
- Start date
Re: integrally suppressed barrel ?
The only Integrally suppressed barrel I've heard of was a .22 and it was more quiet (On Video ) than a screw on but it may have been due to the screw on being fired from a semi auto and the integrally suppressed barrel was on a bolt action.
Here's the website of a company that I know of that makes both.
http://www.thompsonmachine.net/?page_id=14
You could probably contact them and ask.
Chances are that both a removable and integrated suppressor will have similar noise reduction, however the difference will be whether or not the host is bolt action (no sound escaping during ejection) or full/semi auto (additional sound escaping during round ejection)
The only Integrally suppressed barrel I've heard of was a .22 and it was more quiet (On Video ) than a screw on but it may have been due to the screw on being fired from a semi auto and the integrally suppressed barrel was on a bolt action.
Here's the website of a company that I know of that makes both.
http://www.thompsonmachine.net/?page_id=14
You could probably contact them and ask.
Chances are that both a removable and integrated suppressor will have similar noise reduction, however the difference will be whether or not the host is bolt action (no sound escaping during ejection) or full/semi auto (additional sound escaping during round ejection)
Re: integrally suppressed barrel ?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1shot2kill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">is a integrally suppressed barrel quieter than a removable silencer </div></div>
Usually. Due to the fact that the suppressor is much longer than a thread on (more volume).
I own 2 integrally suppressed Ruger rifles - 10/22 (22) and 77/44 (44 Mag). The barrel on the .22 is about 8" long, with the suppressor being 8" as well to make the legal 16" minimum OAL for a rifle barrel.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1shot2kill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">is a integrally suppressed barrel quieter than a removable silencer </div></div>
Usually. Due to the fact that the suppressor is much longer than a thread on (more volume).
I own 2 integrally suppressed Ruger rifles - 10/22 (22) and 77/44 (44 Mag). The barrel on the .22 is about 8" long, with the suppressor being 8" as well to make the legal 16" minimum OAL for a rifle barrel.
Re: integrally suppressed barrel ?
I have a .223 made by John's Guns
http://www.fullysuppressed.com/arplatform.html
There are several holes drilled (about 8" from the end) on the barrel to vent gasses and the actual suppressor is over a foot long. I just waiting on the FOrm 4 to clear now...Got to fondle everything, just not shoot it yet.
Would make sense that it is quieter tho due to the larger volume and extra chambers for expansion.
Regrads,
DT
I have a .223 made by John's Guns
http://www.fullysuppressed.com/arplatform.html
There are several holes drilled (about 8" from the end) on the barrel to vent gasses and the actual suppressor is over a foot long. I just waiting on the FOrm 4 to clear now...Got to fondle everything, just not shoot it yet.
Would make sense that it is quieter tho due to the larger volume and extra chambers for expansion.
Regrads,
DT
Re: integrally suppressed barrel ?
Most integrals bleed off gas, which also reduces velocity to make the gun quieter. The downside is less velocity. In a 22, this can be a plus as you can use high velocity copper covered bullets and reduce the lead fouling, which plagues 22 suppressors. The integral will bleed velocity off to get it subsonic.
Most integrals bleed off gas, which also reduces velocity to make the gun quieter. The downside is less velocity. In a 22, this can be a plus as you can use high velocity copper covered bullets and reduce the lead fouling, which plagues 22 suppressors. The integral will bleed velocity off to get it subsonic.
Re: integrally suppressed barrel ?
Good question...
The answer is complicated but well worth exploring.
Sources of perceived sound:
- Muzzle blast
- Supersonic flight signature of the projectile
- Action noise (bolt quiter than auto)
- Operator noise
- Noise of made by projectile when it hits the target
<span style="font-weight: bold">A suppressor systems can effect:</span>
- Muzzle blast
- Supersonic flight signature
<span style="font-weight: bold">Host selection can effect:</span>
- Action generated noise
Note: Some suppressors allow for the Neilson device to "stand on its ears" providing action lock-out, therefor requiring manual cycling. A quick twist, manual...a quick twist, auto.
- Supersonic flight signature (some calibers, applied barrel length)
<span style="font-weight: bold">The operator can effect:</span>
Any noise the operator generates
Perhaps target selection to minimize projectile impact noise, if not, we are left with only....
Target impact may not necessarily be impacted.
So...
<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Here is where the work is:</span></span>
<span style="font-weight: bold">A Host/Suppressor system that can effect:</span>
- Muzzle blast
- Supersonic flight signature of the projectile
- Action generated noise
And to that we add something very important to some that has nothing to do with noise...
- Accuracy of selected system
- Terminal force/energy of the projectile
And THAT is where many of us end up favoring integral systems for some calibers above all others.
<span style="font-weight: bold">A properly prepared integral will:</span>
- Be specifically tuned for a supersonic projectile to insure that that very same projectile is brought to consistantly the right velocity, insuring the highest subsonic speeds possible. That insures <span style="font-weight: bold">accuracy, stability of flight, maximum terminal energy and maximimum distance capabilities</span>.
- Comprised of a barrel system with A SINGLE tuned purge hole as that is all that is required in a proper design. One hole. It is the purge hole that determines speed but has two other important potentials. First is should be gas pathed to precharge the blast can to maximize suppression values. Secondly, purge holes can be a weakness, tapping gas early at high pressure and then allowing the gas pressure to drop IS the highest risk for particulates not "purging" forward.
We should also mention that the best integral designs place the barrel under compression, significantly improving accuracy.
No, integral cans ARE NOT necessarily longer, why would they be? No reason. In fact the barrel length in a tuned system is a very important consideration and giving that length up to an integral can is where some engineers spend allot of time balancing the two. Why would the blast can component of an integral system be longer as the engineer knows that when the bullets enters the blast armeture it is...right...subsonic. Requiring far less blast suppression. We actually see longer suppressors in weaker designs where the manufacturer does not want the additional work of altering the forearm to account for "bull barrel" diameter of integral designs. Or they don't understand porting and place more than one. I have seen, and heard, many "standard" diameter integral .22s and I can say without exception they all are poor performers. They have longer cans, shorter barrels, poorer purging, no precharge, on and on and on. Lastly, consider this...do we need to port a short .22 barrel? How long does a .22 barrel need to allow for a given round to even get to SS? We want the system tuned! We want the longer, more stabil barrel and the projectile to enter the blast can at exactly the highest subsonic velocity. What ammo? What barrel length? What velocity? What grain bullet?
No, subsonic velocity in an integral is not a "downside." Just the opposite, we are talking about the QUIETEST potential systems, those system will , by requirement, use subsonic projectiles.
So we are left with the last important question...
The use of subsonics in a bolt action rifle with a blast can screwed on at its end. Can that be as quiet as an integral?
- It would be subsonic
- It could have a superb blast can
- It could be a quiet action
- The operator could be quiet
- The target selection could be considered.
Sure, absolutely, why not? And if your lucky, all elements discussed above are perfectly in balance.
From here on its personal choice. I choose not to spend $$$ on filthy subsonics. I shoot plated extremely clean powder, high velocity, .22s manufactured to have ACCURACY as the principle driving the ammunition design. I have yet to see any subsonics with plated bullets, using premium powder, in heavy bullets that are consistantly accurate. Just the opposite.
I also want my rifle barrel and pistol barrel held in compression. I want it tuned to that same ammo. And I want that ammo traveing at the highest velocity possible and still be subsonic. Clean ammo in a great design can go for tens of thousands of rounds.
I get stuck with:
- Less flexibilty as my suppressor is dedicated to one, and only one host.
- Greater expense as I pay for all the work involved in a perfectly balanced system, not just a can and box of subsonics.
Hope that helped. Let me know if you want to know the reasosns why intergrals are uncommon in centerfire designs.
Good question...
The answer is complicated but well worth exploring.
Sources of perceived sound:
- Muzzle blast
- Supersonic flight signature of the projectile
- Action noise (bolt quiter than auto)
- Operator noise
- Noise of made by projectile when it hits the target
<span style="font-weight: bold">A suppressor systems can effect:</span>
- Muzzle blast
- Supersonic flight signature
<span style="font-weight: bold">Host selection can effect:</span>
- Action generated noise
Note: Some suppressors allow for the Neilson device to "stand on its ears" providing action lock-out, therefor requiring manual cycling. A quick twist, manual...a quick twist, auto.
- Supersonic flight signature (some calibers, applied barrel length)
<span style="font-weight: bold">The operator can effect:</span>
Any noise the operator generates
Perhaps target selection to minimize projectile impact noise, if not, we are left with only....
Target impact may not necessarily be impacted.
So...
<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Here is where the work is:</span></span>
<span style="font-weight: bold">A Host/Suppressor system that can effect:</span>
- Muzzle blast
- Supersonic flight signature of the projectile
- Action generated noise
And to that we add something very important to some that has nothing to do with noise...
- Accuracy of selected system
- Terminal force/energy of the projectile
And THAT is where many of us end up favoring integral systems for some calibers above all others.
<span style="font-weight: bold">A properly prepared integral will:</span>
- Be specifically tuned for a supersonic projectile to insure that that very same projectile is brought to consistantly the right velocity, insuring the highest subsonic speeds possible. That insures <span style="font-weight: bold">accuracy, stability of flight, maximum terminal energy and maximimum distance capabilities</span>.
- Comprised of a barrel system with A SINGLE tuned purge hole as that is all that is required in a proper design. One hole. It is the purge hole that determines speed but has two other important potentials. First is should be gas pathed to precharge the blast can to maximize suppression values. Secondly, purge holes can be a weakness, tapping gas early at high pressure and then allowing the gas pressure to drop IS the highest risk for particulates not "purging" forward.
We should also mention that the best integral designs place the barrel under compression, significantly improving accuracy.
No, integral cans ARE NOT necessarily longer, why would they be? No reason. In fact the barrel length in a tuned system is a very important consideration and giving that length up to an integral can is where some engineers spend allot of time balancing the two. Why would the blast can component of an integral system be longer as the engineer knows that when the bullets enters the blast armeture it is...right...subsonic. Requiring far less blast suppression. We actually see longer suppressors in weaker designs where the manufacturer does not want the additional work of altering the forearm to account for "bull barrel" diameter of integral designs. Or they don't understand porting and place more than one. I have seen, and heard, many "standard" diameter integral .22s and I can say without exception they all are poor performers. They have longer cans, shorter barrels, poorer purging, no precharge, on and on and on. Lastly, consider this...do we need to port a short .22 barrel? How long does a .22 barrel need to allow for a given round to even get to SS? We want the system tuned! We want the longer, more stabil barrel and the projectile to enter the blast can at exactly the highest subsonic velocity. What ammo? What barrel length? What velocity? What grain bullet?
No, subsonic velocity in an integral is not a "downside." Just the opposite, we are talking about the QUIETEST potential systems, those system will , by requirement, use subsonic projectiles.
So we are left with the last important question...
The use of subsonics in a bolt action rifle with a blast can screwed on at its end. Can that be as quiet as an integral?
- It would be subsonic
- It could have a superb blast can
- It could be a quiet action
- The operator could be quiet
- The target selection could be considered.
Sure, absolutely, why not? And if your lucky, all elements discussed above are perfectly in balance.
From here on its personal choice. I choose not to spend $$$ on filthy subsonics. I shoot plated extremely clean powder, high velocity, .22s manufactured to have ACCURACY as the principle driving the ammunition design. I have yet to see any subsonics with plated bullets, using premium powder, in heavy bullets that are consistantly accurate. Just the opposite.
I also want my rifle barrel and pistol barrel held in compression. I want it tuned to that same ammo. And I want that ammo traveing at the highest velocity possible and still be subsonic. Clean ammo in a great design can go for tens of thousands of rounds.
I get stuck with:
- Less flexibilty as my suppressor is dedicated to one, and only one host.
- Greater expense as I pay for all the work involved in a perfectly balanced system, not just a can and box of subsonics.
Hope that helped. Let me know if you want to know the reasosns why intergrals are uncommon in centerfire designs.
Re: integrally suppressed barrel ?
Rollingthunder, who would you turn to/recommend for an integral build?
Rollingthunder, who would you turn to/recommend for an integral build?
Re: integrally suppressed barrel ?
There are a number of them. If I remember the last time I heard that one of the "Suppressor Review" pages (I don't read them, I listen to a boat load of cans) selected the quietest .22 can it was an integral design. But that same site didn't test three other providers. Again, there are a number of them. In no order of importance Norrel, SRT, AWC, YHM, etc. etc.
I recommend you hear them as the list above includes some dogs. We have to remember that everybody has a favorite house and suppressors have taken on an odd facet inasmuch as folks get pretty defensive about their favorites. I shoot for accuracy, if I'm going to take the time to shoot I do it to improve skills. Integral bolt .22s are extremely accurate, truly remarkable. Look for every round of centerfire I shoot, I probably shoot 50 rounds of .22 so a superb .22 is worth quite a bit to me. In fact I think it can be the most practical and most cost effective firearm one can own. I recognize that some do not want a dedicated can on a single host, I get that, I really do. I constantly rad hear about "how quiet is a .22 suppressed", there is an active thread right now going on. I think to myself "A stapler? A stapler? A hand held commercial stapler is L-O-U-D." I have a bolt action integral .22 that is about as loud as snapping your finger nail on a coke can, not opening the lid, just snapping the ring with your finger nail.
I, myself, shoot precision sealed cans only. A good design, shooting quality ammo can go for forty thousand (40,000) rounds before I even think about sending it back for a cleaning and potential baffle upgrade. No monocores. No aluminum! I like a company that has been around and will be around for decades. I guess I'm avoiding just saying "buy this."
To get a great integral, ask these questions...and listen close to the answers given:
1. What ammo did you tune the system to? (These are tuned systems!)
2. How many ports do you use?
3. What do you do to improve accuracy? (barrel, trigger, compression)
4. How long can I go before I will need to have the can serviced and what would that cost?
5. Do you recommend subsonics? (If the answer is yes...run away)
6. What materials do you use?
All the basics. But most important is to hear as many different cans as you can as they shake out super fast!
There are a number of them. If I remember the last time I heard that one of the "Suppressor Review" pages (I don't read them, I listen to a boat load of cans) selected the quietest .22 can it was an integral design. But that same site didn't test three other providers. Again, there are a number of them. In no order of importance Norrel, SRT, AWC, YHM, etc. etc.
I recommend you hear them as the list above includes some dogs. We have to remember that everybody has a favorite house and suppressors have taken on an odd facet inasmuch as folks get pretty defensive about their favorites. I shoot for accuracy, if I'm going to take the time to shoot I do it to improve skills. Integral bolt .22s are extremely accurate, truly remarkable. Look for every round of centerfire I shoot, I probably shoot 50 rounds of .22 so a superb .22 is worth quite a bit to me. In fact I think it can be the most practical and most cost effective firearm one can own. I recognize that some do not want a dedicated can on a single host, I get that, I really do. I constantly rad hear about "how quiet is a .22 suppressed", there is an active thread right now going on. I think to myself "A stapler? A stapler? A hand held commercial stapler is L-O-U-D." I have a bolt action integral .22 that is about as loud as snapping your finger nail on a coke can, not opening the lid, just snapping the ring with your finger nail.
I, myself, shoot precision sealed cans only. A good design, shooting quality ammo can go for forty thousand (40,000) rounds before I even think about sending it back for a cleaning and potential baffle upgrade. No monocores. No aluminum! I like a company that has been around and will be around for decades. I guess I'm avoiding just saying "buy this."
To get a great integral, ask these questions...and listen close to the answers given:
1. What ammo did you tune the system to? (These are tuned systems!)
2. How many ports do you use?
3. What do you do to improve accuracy? (barrel, trigger, compression)
4. How long can I go before I will need to have the can serviced and what would that cost?
5. Do you recommend subsonics? (If the answer is yes...run away)
6. What materials do you use?
All the basics. But most important is to hear as many different cans as you can as they shake out super fast!
Re: integrally suppressed barrel ?
Just my 2 cents... A GOOD integral bolt rifle is worlds better than a blast can shooting subs. No comparison IMO.
Just my 2 cents... A GOOD integral bolt rifle is worlds better than a blast can shooting subs. No comparison IMO.
Re: integrally suppressed barrel ?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are a number of them. If I remember the last time I heard that one of the "Suppressor Review" pages (I don't read them, I listen to a boat load of cans) selected the quietest .22 can it was an integral design. But that same site didn't test three other providers. Again, there are a number of them. In no order of importance Norrel, SRT, AWC, YHM, etc. etc.
I recommend you hear them as the list above includes some dogs. We have to remember that everybody has a favorite house and suppressors have taken on an odd facet inasmuch as folks get pretty defensive about their favorites. I shoot for accuracy, if I'm going to take the time to shoot I do it to improve skills. Integral bolt .22s are extremely accurate, truly remarkable. Look for every round of centerfire I shoot, I probably shoot 50 rounds of .22 so a superb .22 is worth quite a bit to me. In fact I think it can be the most practical and most cost effective firearm one can own. I recognize that some do not want a dedicated can on a single host, I get that, I really do. I constantly rad hear about "how quiet is a .22 suppressed", there is an active thread right now going on. I think to myself "A stapler? A stapler? A hand held commercial stapler is L-O-U-D." I have a bolt action integral .22 that is about as loud as snapping your finger nail on a coke can, not opening the lid, just snapping the ring with your finger nail.
I, myself, shoot precision sealed cans only. A good design, shooting quality ammo can go for forty thousand (40,000) rounds before I even think about sending it back for a cleaning and potential baffle upgrade. No monocores. No aluminum! I like a company that has been around and will be around for decades. I guess I'm avoiding just saying "buy this."
To get a great integral, ask these questions...and listen close to the answers given:
1. What ammo did you tune the system to? (These are tuned systems!)
2. How many ports do you use?
3. What do you do to improve accuracy? (barrel, trigger, compression)
4. How long can I go before I will need to have the can serviced and what would that cost?
5. Do you recommend subsonics? (If the answer is yes...run away)
6. What materials do you use?
All the basics. But most important is to hear as many different cans as you can as they shake out super fast!
</div></div>
Wow... this is really good advice.
I'm wondering, what brand/model is your integrally suppressed .22 bolt action rifle? Also would you be willing to/have you posted pics of this rifle somewhere?
I'm also wondering about who might retrofit say a Remington 40x .22 action with a suppressed barrel.
Hmm....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are a number of them. If I remember the last time I heard that one of the "Suppressor Review" pages (I don't read them, I listen to a boat load of cans) selected the quietest .22 can it was an integral design. But that same site didn't test three other providers. Again, there are a number of them. In no order of importance Norrel, SRT, AWC, YHM, etc. etc.
I recommend you hear them as the list above includes some dogs. We have to remember that everybody has a favorite house and suppressors have taken on an odd facet inasmuch as folks get pretty defensive about their favorites. I shoot for accuracy, if I'm going to take the time to shoot I do it to improve skills. Integral bolt .22s are extremely accurate, truly remarkable. Look for every round of centerfire I shoot, I probably shoot 50 rounds of .22 so a superb .22 is worth quite a bit to me. In fact I think it can be the most practical and most cost effective firearm one can own. I recognize that some do not want a dedicated can on a single host, I get that, I really do. I constantly rad hear about "how quiet is a .22 suppressed", there is an active thread right now going on. I think to myself "A stapler? A stapler? A hand held commercial stapler is L-O-U-D." I have a bolt action integral .22 that is about as loud as snapping your finger nail on a coke can, not opening the lid, just snapping the ring with your finger nail.
I, myself, shoot precision sealed cans only. A good design, shooting quality ammo can go for forty thousand (40,000) rounds before I even think about sending it back for a cleaning and potential baffle upgrade. No monocores. No aluminum! I like a company that has been around and will be around for decades. I guess I'm avoiding just saying "buy this."
To get a great integral, ask these questions...and listen close to the answers given:
1. What ammo did you tune the system to? (These are tuned systems!)
2. How many ports do you use?
3. What do you do to improve accuracy? (barrel, trigger, compression)
4. How long can I go before I will need to have the can serviced and what would that cost?
5. Do you recommend subsonics? (If the answer is yes...run away)
6. What materials do you use?
All the basics. But most important is to hear as many different cans as you can as they shake out super fast!
Wow... this is really good advice.
I'm wondering, what brand/model is your integrally suppressed .22 bolt action rifle? Also would you be willing to/have you posted pics of this rifle somewhere?
I'm also wondering about who might retrofit say a Remington 40x .22 action with a suppressed barrel.
Hmm....
