Interesting article, Army, USMC approach to suppressors

[ArmyJerry]

I bit over a year ago, just stumbled acrss it, now. looking for a new suppressor, want to switch to what the Army is using these days.

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/...-suppressors-will-change-battlefield-tactics/

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Two squads of infantryman approach an enemy position, one from each side. The commander orders the squad on the enemy's right flank to attack.

Rifles and machine guns open fire.


The cacophony of the firefight pulls the enemy in that direction as they return fire.


Meanwhile, the second squad charges the opposite flank, sound suppressors attached to their rifles and machine guns. They begin shooting.


The enemy commander has no idea he's taking casualties on that side until it's too late. His position is overrun. His unit is wiped out.

I'd like the author to explain what he thinks would happen if the ambush-e has OP's or GP's out that have cans an subsonic ammo waiting on the ambush'or. Lots of fail in that hollywood script.

 

[Flyingbullseye]

I personally liked this sentence.

"Walker estimated some suppressors are only good for 1,500 to 2,000 rounds."

WTF are you making a suppressor that is good for only 1500-2000 rounds? Tin foil? Countersniper suppressors? You will not get me to believe the military is purchasing the low end cheap crap in this area for our troops.

What I did find interesting is the part talking about the concern the suppressor would decrease accuracy and velocity. Seems even the troops know about as much of suppressors as the average Joe on the street.

 

[AIAW]

Well it's a common misconception that if you are LEO/MIL that you automatically are a God among marksmen and that you are also a master-level elite gunsmith. Simply not the case. Definitely a much higher competency level in those arenas though.

Yeah, I change my suppressors out completely when I do barrel swaps.

Perpetual Form 4's to keep them "fresh".

 

[jrassy]

It would be nice if the Marines could get something first, instead of army cast off shit.

 

[2ndamendfan]

I better tell a couple of mine they are worn out.

 

[hermosabeach]

US Mil should pitch - #1 firearm injury is hearing loss

Cant communicate with ear pro in- cant hear the enemy with ear plugs in

Suppressors are only quite when a saw is already running

 

[SilentStalkr]

Holy shit, causes decreased accuracy and velocity and wearing out after 1500 rds...it any of your boys want to get rid of yours for being dated or worn out at 1600 rds please PM me for my class 3 dealers address! I will take them off of your hands, for free of course since they are clearly no good.

 

[Bender]

Is the military really this full of fudds?

 

[wilson1911]

First....every citizen needs to fill out a form 4. The govt can be listed as a trustee, but the money comes out of your pocket. Or get rid of the NFA. They should obey the same laws we do. They are not non-citizens.

The can pictured in the first pic is a knights. What a joke this is about lasting 2k rounds. I own the newer QDC 556, but do not have any exp with the NT4. Its not the quietest can on the market, but it’s built like a tank.
They are not 700 bones, the QDC is 1400 bones. Nothing knights sells is cheap, but everything is of the highest quality. I love my SR15’s and think everyone should own one.

Jerry if you do not own a knights, get a SR15 and a QDC can from them. I also run the mams, but you do not have to.

Evreryone in the civi world knows cans increase speed, not lower it, subs included. What you can do is buy cheap ass can that has POI shift problems, as I have a friend who went this route. No matter how much you try to discuss this with him, it gets ignored tho.

Most of the higher end cans are rated to at least 50k rounds. Cleaning is not really needed unless your shooting brown bear junk, the first baffle can get a little narly looking.

Why am I paying this idiots salary ?

 

[Strykervet]

Cans only last 2000 rounds but everyone knows that an M4 barrel is good for 100's of thousands of rounds before needing replacement!

Fucking tards.

 

[MarinePMI]

It would be nice if the Marines could get something first, instead of army cast off shit.

The Marines already have a battalion outfitted with suppressors as a test unit. It's coming down the pipe; for sure.

 

[pmclaine]

Might explain why the USMC picked up the HK to replace a belt fed in the fire team AR role.

Perhaps someone saw suppressors as the end all and there was a thought that with the suppressor a piston operated rifle would be preferred.

So roll out the HK, get it in the inventory, get supressors, request an HK for every Marine issued a rifle, bring back a belt fed AR for the fire team.

Is anyone in dot gov capable of that long plan thinking?

 

[SilentStalkr]

Might explain why the USMC picked up the HK to replace a belt fed in the fire team AR role.

Perhaps someone saw suppressors as the end all and there was a thought that with the suppressor a piston operated rifle would be preferred.

So roll out the HK, get it in the inventory, get supressors, request an HK for every Marine issued a rifle, bring back a belt fed AR for the fire team.

Is anyone in dot gov capable of that long plan thinking?

?????

 

[wilson1911]

What does a piston gun have to do with a can over heating ? That’s on the other end of the gun that benefits from the piston. No full auto is going to last from a msg type weapon. It would be glowing at the very least after 100 rounds continuously.

I want my money back from his salary.

If cans make rifles inaccurate, how come there is no mention of covers for mirage either?

 

[MarinePMI]

What does a piston gun have to do with a can over heating ? That’s on the other end of the gun that benefits from the piston. No full auto is going to last from a msg type weapon. It would be glowing at the very least after 100 rounds continuously.

I want my money back from his salary.

If cans make rifles inaccurate, how come there is no mention of covers for mirage either?

Back pressure bro. Suppressed M-4's tend to break shit (internally) prematurely from the additional stress produced by the back pressure (hence some of the "sleeveless" suppressors that mitigate some of that back pressure). A piston system helps by not having gas go back into the action, and just letting the KE of the piston drive the cycling function. In fact, I saw one of the new suppressors at the last Pendleton match that was the honeycomb'ed looking design. And yes, they were letting some FA strings loose with it.

 

[pmclaine]

What does a piston gun have to do with a can over heating ? That’s on the other end of the gun that benefits from the piston. No full auto is going to last from a msg type weapon. It would be glowing at the very least after 100 rounds continuously.

I want my money back from his salary.

If cans make rifles inaccurate, how come there is no mention of covers for mirage either?

The piston has nothing to do with a can over heating but if getting gas blown back in your face is a concern pistons prevent that issue.

I think there is a battle between "piston" and "DI" fan boys.

Piston people are pushing the idea of less gas blow back, cleaner operation, less heat in the bolt area.

Those are facts and the piston does provide those benefits but at what cost?

I personally prefer less moving shit and other than wearing out gas rings quicker lots of oil can substitute for cleaning if the need arises.

But you make a good point whether "piston" or "DI" that part of the equation is solved prior to the can.

 

[J.Boney]

Interesting article for sure. For AJ and those of you that don't know about Jeff Gurwitch. He's an SF guy in the fight that writes articles for Defense Review. I like his articles. Not in this one, but I believe that I read that the US Army SF Units are using the Sig Sauer cans..
http://www.defensereview.com/tactic...the-competition-to-combat-crossover-part-iii/

 

[pmclaine]

Interesting article for sure. For AJ and those of you that don't know about Jeff Gurwitch. He's an SF guy in the fight that writes articles for Defense Review. I like his articles. Not in this one, but I believe that I read that the US Army SF Units are using the Sig Sauer cans..
http://www.defensereview.com/tactic...the-competition-to-combat-crossover-part-iii/

Fucking Sig is sending various agencies pictures of their principle purchasing officer in compromising situations for sure.

They are winning all the purchase orders and sure its a fine product but I dont see Unicorns and rainbows when I hold their stuff.

I heard of a police agency recently issuing their tac guys Sig piston ARs in .30 black out. So now the rest of the agency is being warned about the dissimilarity in ammo so that the patrol guys with 5.56 ARs dont chamber any .30 BO they may come across.

Would be topic for another thread to discuss the advantage of such a cluster fuck.

 

[pmclaine]

Interesting article for sure. For AJ and those of you that don't know about Jeff Gurwitch. He's an SF guy in the fight that writes articles for Defense Review. I like his articles. Not in this one, but I believe that I read that the US Army SF Units are using the Sig Sauer cans..
http://www.defensereview.com/tactic...the-competition-to-combat-crossover-part-iii/

Interesting article.

Introduction makes some important points regards the attitude towards firearms...."Men at arms" not necessarily being "enthusiasts".

There is a big difference in attitude between those for whom guns are "tools" and those that use them as "toys".

Neither has a better perspective but both could do better by keeping an eye on each others experiences.

 

[J.Boney]

Fucking Sig is sending various agencies pictures of their principle purchasing officer in compromising situations for sure.

They are winning all the purchase orders and sure its a fine product but I dont see Unicorns and rainbows when I hold their stuff.

I heard of a police agency recently issuing their tac guys Sig piston ARs in .30 black out. So now the rest of the agency is being warned about the dissimilarity in ammo so that the patrol guys with 5.56 ARs dont chamber any .30 BO they may come across.

Would be topic for another thread to discuss the advantage of such a cluster fuck.

WOW, that's UNSAT on the pics. I like SIG ok, but like you, I don't see the magic Ferry Dust in their products. There are far better choices in the AR markets...

 

[MarinePMI]

The piston has nothing to do with a can over heating but if getting gas blown back in your face is a concern pistons prevent that issue.

I think there is a battle between "piston" and "DI" fan boys.

Piston people are pushing the idea of less gas blow back, cleaner operation, less heat in the bolt area.

Those are facts and the piston does provide those benefits but at what cost?

I personally prefer less moving shit and other than wearing out gas rings quicker lots of oil can substitute for cleaning if the need arises.

But you make a good point whether "piston" or "DI" that part of the equation is solved prior to the can.

pmclaine,

As I understand it (AR's are typically over gassed to begin with), and the addition of a suppressor is raising the gas pressures enough to cause fracture of the BCG over time (never mind the additional cleaning required for the current gas operated M-4's). Something about the raising of the gas pressure causing the bcg to travel faster than designed, causing the bcg or cam pin to fracture prematurely.

It's been awhile since I read up on their stuff, but these were the guys that initially produced the "baffleless" suppressor design.

https://osssuppressors.com/

I'm pretty sure this is what I saw on some of the Marines' rifles a couple months ago...

 

[SilentStalkr]

There may be some merit in the maintenance aspect of things, but extra maintenance on a modified weapon should be understood. You can’t build a 900whp car and expect stock parts or even all aftermarket parts to last as long as intended. Everything comes with a cost, you just have to decide if it’s worth it. Yes, it could cause some things to wear prematurely but the dudes statements about decreased velocity and accuracy issues is way off base from today’s standards. Maintenance wise I could see. Perhaps he is playing political here...in some regards, saying things for reasons we may not be aware of.

 

[pmclaine]

pmclaine,

As I understand it. suppressed AR's are typically over gassed to begin with, and the addition of a suppressor is raising the gas pressures enough to cause fracture of the BCG over time (never mind the additional cleaning required for the current gas operated M-4's). Something about the raising of the gas pressure causing the bcg to travel faster than designed, causing the bcg or cam pin to fracture prematurely.

It's been awhile since I read up on their stuff, but these were the guys that initially produced the "baffleless" suppressor design.

https://osssuppressors.com/

I'm pretty sure this is what I saw on some of the Marines' rifles a couple months ago...

I certainly agree that the addition of the can could lead to more wear and tear through raising pressure but I dont have the brain power to determine whether piston or DI causes more heat at the can itself.

Which bleeds more gas at the gas block would likely determine.

Certainly piston causes less heat at the chamber end.

Hopefully who ever is deciding on this is considering updated rifle maintenance inspections/schedules.

The article notes that there will be a cost for can maintenance/end of service life replacement.

Ive been scratching my head since the USMC replaced a belt fed AR with a mag fed one.

Even if the 5.56 M249 had its problems the answer seems to be 240B not 30 round mag dumps.

Looking at a suppressor future for all and getting the camels nose under the tent seems to be the only reason that going with the HK in the first place makes sense to me.

Truth be told though logistics, strategy and tactics is only something I play at on the internet when not reading Tolkien like fantasy - what I think is pretty useless.