Interesting read on guns and suicide and prevention.

[Maggot]

Dont give me a bunch of shit about being anti gun, Im just posting this for the read.

=======================



'How Did We Not Know?' Gun Owners Confront a Suicide ...
www.nytimes.com › health › suicide-guns-prevention


1 day ago —

 

[pmclaine]

Propaganda.

 

[Maggot]

Propaganda.

Perhaps intended that way but I think the facts of the article are real, and posted in case one of us can help someone. Yours is about the reaction I expected.

 

[Lthrt]

I'll volunteer to babysit guns, or high end scopes, and for sure all your ammo

 

[pmclaine]

Facts....

People with access to guns are more likely to commit suicide with guns.

People with cars are more likely to get in car crashes.

People that fly on planes are more likely to be involved in a plane crash.

People that do not go in water are less likely to drown.

Education is important but it being the New York Times the solution is not mental health care or prevention targeted to at risk people its "lets ban guns".

 

[Maggot]

Education is important but it being the New York Times the solution is not mental health care or prevention targeted to at risk people its "lets ban guns".

Beside the point of the post.

 

[pmclaine]

To me the point of the article is that the lockdown is going to lead to an increase in suicides.

Lets end the lockdown.

 

[sandwarrior]

Beside the point of the post.

I think pmc is right on. Having first hand experience with the detritis, he has a much better grasp on what 'really is' than you do.

 

[Maggot]

I think pmc is right on. Having first hand experience with the detritis, he has a much better grasp on what 'really is' than you do.

An you know that, how?

 

[Maggot]

To me the point of the article is that the lockdown is going to lead to an increase in suicides.

Lets end the lockdown.

Then I believe you missed the point. The lock down is only ONE factor. A large one, perhaps, but only one. The point is that high stress times lead to higher suicides and that perhaps awareness can help. Be it with guns, cars, etc.

 

[hlee]

Pills, guns, razor blades, fast cars, alcohol, etc. If the point of the article is suicide prevention then the chosen tool should not matter. It is about mental health and stress management in difficult times. However, the point of the article is not about suicide prevention, it is about banning guns. Tripe. Plain and simple.

 

[308pirate]

An you know that, how?

Fair point.

Tell us how many suicide cases or attempt calls you've been to and I'm sure @pmclaine can chime in if he feels it's warranted.

Then we'll know who to listen to.

 

[308pirate]

Then I believe you missed the point. The lock down is only ONE factor. A large one, perhaps, but only one. The point is that high stress times lead to higher suicides and that perhaps awareness can help. Be it with guns, cars, etc.

I missed the mentions of using the car for CO poisoning, medications/drug overdoses, jumping from bridges, jumping in front of trains, wrist slicing, self hangings, and all the other numerous methods people use to kill themselves in the article.

I thought it was just about guns.

 

[Maggot]

Fair point.

Tell us how many suicide cases or attempt calls you've been to and I'm sure @pmclaine can chime in if he feels it's warranted.

Then we'll know who to listen to.

Beside the point.
Listen to who you want I give a fuck.

 

[308pirate]

Beside the point.
Listen to who you want I give a fuck.

I get it....doesn't fit my narrative = besides the point

 

[Maggot]

I get it....doesn't fit my narrative = besides the point

No, thats not it, I just wish people could take info and use it circumventing the left/right gun/no gun stuff.

And apologies for being short, Ive been working too much and that makes me cranky.

 

[pmclaine]

Then I believe you missed the point. The lock down is only ONE factor. A large one, perhaps, but only one. The point is that high stress times lead to higher suicides and that perhaps awareness can help. Be it with guns, cars, etc.

Ask the Times if Red Flag laws are the answer.......that is what is coming.

 

[Maggot]

Ask the Times if Red Flag laws are the answer.......that is what is coming.

WTF does that have to do with using the info to help someone going through tough times?

Nothing.

 

[MadDuner]

My body.
My choice.

 

[Maggot]

My body.
My choice.

Absolutely, I 100% support yuor right to blow your brains out. I would, however, try to reason with you and see if there wasnt a more positive outcome possible...unless you were a (hardcore)liberal.

Id rather see you poison yourself so as not to give a bad rep to guns.

 

[johnnyvw]

Did a google search for "NY Times gun suicide"...I stopped after looking at three pages of articles. No, of course they don't have an agenda...

 

[VA-Varminter]

People who want to kill themselves find ways to kill themselves. Stupid ones use drugs, guns, ropes, or other things that clearly telegraph their intent. Smart ones use cars and trees or big ass trucks so that their loved ones can collect a little something to bury them.You can take away guns, drugs, cars, bridges, steep cliffs, ponds, lakes, rivers, and oceans - they're still going to do it.
Fuck NYT, today and forever.

 

[Threadcutter308]

If the central premise is that higher stress/anxiety increases suicide rates and there is no substantive discussion of stress/anxiety-resilience techniques … what does that say about the author?

That he, like most "journalists", was being paid by the word ?

 

[powdahound76]

I missed the mentions of using the car for CO poisoning, medications/drug overdoses, jumping from bridges, jumping in front of trains, wrist slicing, self hangings, and all the other numerous methods people use to kill themselves in the article.

I thought it was just about guns.

Since a lot of people OD on pills, we should have more responsible pill distribution. Like Dilaudid. Should only be in the hands of the Govt or the Hospitals. Too powerful for home use.

I get discussion. Every suicide story out there demonizes guns. Look up actual suicide data and guns are just a part.

Suicide sucks. Mental health care in this country is a joke. BUT so many people tend to think life is just easy street without the work. Many of them hide behind the banner of Mental Illness so no one can tell them to suck it up buttercup and you decide how things go. And blame everyone else for all their problems when stuff isn't perfect. And we dont have a good way to help folks who really need it.

 

[Spblademaker]

The mental health problem is alive and well in the Pit.

 

[seanh]

Here's how you fix the problem with suicides by guns. If somebody wants to kill themselves let them do it. Problem solved... everybody go about their business as if nothing happened.

People that really want to kill themselves are going to find a way to do it and there's no way you can stop it.

One of the first things that need to happen is to fix our understanding of Mental Health. And until the BS that floats around that Community is fixed no help can truly be found

 

[FS1]

Suicide by guns vs lives saved by having guns. I wonder if anyone has ever looked at that.

If you want to kill yourself, you will find a way.

The mental health problem is alive and well in the Pit.

I have been traumatized at times watching forum suicides. All you need is a Keyboard and the internet.

 

[Spblademaker]

@Maggot Is this a cry for help?

 

[Kickin45]

I don’t get into political topics and honestly I didn’t read the link, but I can say this about suicide from losing several people over my life to suicide.
If someone truly wants to end their life, there’s really nothing anyone can do to stop them. They will find a way.

 

[MadDuner]

Suicide by guns vs lives saved by having guns. I wonder if anyone has ever looked at that.

If you want to kill yourself, you will find a way.


I have been traumatized at times watching forum suicides. All you need is a Keyboard and the internet.

My brother tried many times to kill himself, and finally succeeded using his car and a garden hose. While I’m sad and disappointed that he did so, I’m glad he didn’t help add to the gun homicide statistic.

 

[Rthur]

Maybe we should require shock collars for fat bastards who like to go into
McDonalds.
They get close to casa McDs they recieve a couple thousand volts.
Ya know, for their own good and all.

Modern problems require modern solutions.

R

 

[Mike Casselton]

Howard,
You said the point of the article is making people aware of suicide.

Hell, I've been aware of it since I was a little kid.

You can read all the crap you want about it, but like pointed out above, numerous times, if someone truly wants to commit suicide, they will find a way.

Everything else is a tool to enable the commission.

An article from any newspaper mentioning death and firearms together is a political statement, not an article designed to create suicide awareness.

If it had any other agenda, it would have listed many causes to the desire for suicide. Instead, the articles focus, very narrowly, on the tools used to kill oneself.

 

[W54/XM-388]

In regard to successful attempts, I would venture a guess that wrapping something around your neck is the preferred method globally & if you were to add it all up around the world, you'd find that a simple rope / scarf / belt, greatly dwarfs everything else.

Much like the humble hammer or similar blunt object probably kills more folks by a huge margin worldwide than guns in everything not "combat" related.

Kind of like people eating themselves fat.
Sure the burgers might be the key for some group, but there is also ice cream, cookies, pasta, etc...

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Human beings, in general, are "lazy". Simple fact. That is why they invented/created tools way-back-when. So that they could do what they're doing, 'easier'. Not to mention faster, better, and to produce a higher quality outcome.

Just think of what a hammer does, and compare that to a fist. Hammer gets the job done better in practically every way.

Now, I know a bit about this 'suicide' thing, as-well-as access to firearms simply because of what has happened here in our family in the past 3 years (referring to the "I'm Smarter Now" thread).

Does this mean that every person who has a firearm is going to commit suicide, NO.
Does this mean that every person who wants to commit suicide will use a firearm to do such, NO.
Does this mean that every person who wants to harm themselves can only do such with a firearm, NO.
Does this mean that when a person gets to the 'lowest point in their lives' and/or has reached 'the base of their knowledge of the end of their rope" and will they (attempt) the easiest/simplest/fastest/surest method or manner in doing such.... YES.

A firearm can be just as 'defining' as jumping off of an eleventeen story building. The corollary to THAT though is, not everyone who jumps off of a building 'dies'.....

Just the same as "not everyone who swallows a 12 gauge dies....."

And this I know, first hand. In the sense of witnessing, that is. So no, I have not attempted such deeds on my ownself.

 

[Maggot]

Howard,
You said the point of the article is making people aware of suicide.

Hell, I've been aware of it since I was a little kid.

You can read all the crap you want about it, but like pointed out above, numerous times, if someone truly wants to commit suicide, they will find a way.

Everything else is a tool to enable the commission.

An article from any newspaper mentioning death and firearms together is a political statement, not an article designed to create suicide awareness.

If it had any other agenda, it would have listed many causes to the desire for suicide. Instead, the articles focus, very narrowly, on the tools used to kill oneself.

"You said the point of the article is making people aware of suicide."

ActuallyI, Mike, agreed pretty quickly that largely the purpose of the article was to paint firearms in a bad light. I then said that MY purpose for posting it here was to bring some awareness to all of us. To pay attention to those around you and if you see warning signs, try to help. Ive posted other threads about suicide in the past and we've had good discussions.

As to the one above, asking if this was a cry for help, only if youre willing to write me a check for a million bucks. One that wont bounce.

 

[10ring'r]

Yada, Yada, and Yada. As was said......propaganda. Mac

 

[Winningdog]

You can't trust their numbers about suicides anyway. After all, Epstein didn't kill himself!

 

[MadDuner]

I’ve got two very good buddies that are right on that edge..... and they’ve been there for awhile.
All I can do is make the effort to talk to them as often as they will answer the phone, and see them in person when I can. They both appear to be making progress towards what would be either be called recovery or acceptance of where they find themselves in life right now. Any attempts at notifying anybody about them officially would lead to disaster. I refuse to be part of the catalyst that causes that disaster.

 

[Threadcutter308]

You can't trust their numbers about suicides anyway. After all, Epstein didn't kill himself!

Nor did I........
Ghislaine Maxwell

 

[DocRDS]

Allright this subject touched a nerve with me and some of you need to be called out.

Maggot's point (and well my point will be) is that suicide is a very real problem.

Man up and show some love for your brothers and sisters suffering in pain. We don't need laws, what we need is some concern for our fellow man.

Don't like NYT stats?

TWENTY - TWO A DAY.

Veterns to suicide every day. If you are not ashamed of that number you should be. 22 Warriors every day who signed up to defend this country in pain ending their lives. Twenty two people feeling so alone that they were brave enough to to defend this country but crushed by the stress and depression. Twenty two of our buddies feeling so rejected by society that they end it.

EVERY DAY.

If you are someone who says "Well they will find a way" wll you need to man up and find a way to bring them back from the edge.

Its not cool and manly to show concern for your fellow man. I don't give a rats ass. I may not be able to bring them all back, but I won't sit back like some of you keyboard warriors saying "welp that's just life" Words don't contain my contempt for that idea and I would get banned if I posted my inner thoughts.

I may not save a single one. But fuck you if you don't try.

 

[Rthur]

Allright this subject touched a nerve with me and some of you need to be called out.

Maggot's point (and well my point will be) is that suicide is a very real problem.

Man up and show some love for your brothers and sisters suffering in pain. We don't need laws, what we need is some concern for our fellow man.

Don't like NYT stats?

TWENTY - TWO A DAY.

Veterns to suicide every day. If you are not ashamed of that number you should be. 22 Warriors every day who signed up to defend this country in pain ending their lives. Twenty two people feeling so alone that they were brave enough to to defend this country but crushed by the stress and depression. Twenty two of our buddies feeling so rejected by society that they end it.

EVERY DAY.

If you are someone who says "Well they will find a way" wll you need to man up and find a way to bring them back from the edge.

Its not cool and manly to show concern for your fellow man. I don't give a rats ass. I may not be able to bring them all back, but I won't sit back like some of you keyboard warriors saying "welp that's just life" Words don't contain my contempt for that idea and I would get banned if I posted my inner thoughts.

I may not save a single one. But fuck you if you don't try.

You've taken contempt of this excuse of gun control measures as a lack of
concern or recognition.
There are things going on here behind the scenes you've no idea of.
Done by many I'll wager you think meet your list.
I've always felt if you have to advertise the deed you've done it for all the wrong reasons.

R

 

[DocRDS]

You've taken contempt of this excuse of gun control measures as a lack of
concern or recognition.
There are things going on here behind the scenes you've no idea of.
Done by many I'll wager you think meet your list.
I've always felt if you have to advertise the deed you've done it for all the wrong reasons.

R

I don't like your condescending attitude. I know exactly the difference between propaganda from the NYT and a real problem like suicide.

You are a sactimonious ass for your reply. Don't ever address me again. I'll shout it from the damn mountaintop and will not be quiet.

END VETERAN SUICIDE.

Fuck off.

 

[Rthur]

I don't like your condescending attitude. I know exactly the difference between propaganda from the NYT and a real problem like suicide.

You are a sactimonious ass for your reply. Don't ever address me again. I'll shout it from the damn mountaintop and will not be quiet.

END VETERAN SUICIDE.

Fuck off.

A swing and a miss.
Review your previous post and get back to me on sanctimonious posts.
Good luck in the tower.

R

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Correlation proves causation.



Use the same logic with drunk driving deaths and cars.

 

[Victory]

Then I believe you missed the point. The lock down is only ONE factor. A large one, perhaps, but only one. The point is that high stress times lead to higher suicides and that perhaps awareness can help. Be it with guns, cars, etc.

If the point is that high stress times lead to higher suicides, then whoever wrote it didn’t spend a single second to actually do any research. There have been numerous studies showing that during times of extreme stress, like war, suicides go down. It’s not so much high stress in general, it’s the type of stress. Dealing with brothers in arms and large numbers of suicides, I’ve come to find that isolation/lack of belonging, and shame to be some of the highest reasons for suicide. I’m sure there is data to back up my antidotal evidence. Times of stress, like war, 9/11, and so on, actually bring communities together. Data seems to point to it lowering suicide in these instances. Lock downs, loss of jobs, and the separation from community seem to inflame suicide rates. Shame is a killer, which leads to isolation, which leads to despair. A deadly combo.

I’ve got two very good buddies that are right on that edge..... and they’ve been there for awhile.
All I can do is make the effort to talk to them as often as they will answer the phone, and see them in person when I can. They both appear to be making progress towards what would be either be called recovery or acceptance of where they find themselves in life right now. Any attempts at notifying anybody about them officially would lead to disaster. I refuse to be part of the catalyst that causes that disaster.

Hey brother, I would try to get them into a BJJ academy. It changed my life, and I’ve used it for other Soldiers/Veterans that were struggling. It’s a community, that gives meaning, and provides a never ending goal to strive towards. This combo changes lives.

 

[Maggot]

If the point is that high stress times lead to higher suicides, then whoever wrote it didn’t spend a single second to actually do any research. There have been numerous studies showing that during times of extreme stress, like war, suicides go down. It’s not so much high stress in general, it’s the type of stress. Dealing with brothers in arms and large numbers of suicides, I’ve come to find that isolation/lack of belonging, and shame to be some of the highest reasons for suicide. I’m sure there is data to back up my antidotal evidence. Times of stress, like war, 9/11, and so on, actually bring communities together. Data seems to point to it lowering suicide in these instances. Lock downs, loss of jobs, and the separation from community seem to inflame suicide rates. Shame is a killer, which leads to isolation, which leads to despair. A deadly combo.



Hey brother, I would try to get them into a BJJ academy. It changed my life, and I’ve used it for other Soldiers/Veterans that were struggling. It’s a community, that gives meaning, and provides a never ending goal to strive towards. This combo changes lives.

Thanks for your post. Havent seen you around for awhile, welcome back.

And agree, its types of stress and you put it well.

 

[Victory]

Been around, just haven’t had time to post a lot.

I guess I have Covid to thank for my new found spare time.

 

[Maggot]

You've taken contempt of this excuse of gun control measures as a lack of
concern or recognition.
There are things going on here behind the scenes you've no idea of.
Done by many I'll wager you think meet your list.
I've always felt if you have to advertise the deed you've done it for all the wrong reasons.

R

Respectfully, R, putting something that youve done out there is not always 'pride' which I think youre arguing against. Ive had two young men come to me and tell me straight up "You've (or your help) has changed my life, thanks." Am I proud of that? You bet I am. I dont bring it up often but Im not ashamed to say it.

But I know what you mean.

An Im glad to see this thread got on the track I intended it to be on....with a couple bumps along the way.

 

[sandwarrior]

Allright this subject touched a nerve with me and some of you need to be called out.

Maggot's point (and well my point will be) is that suicide is a very real problem.

Man up and show some love for your brothers and sisters suffering in pain. We don't need laws, what we need is some concern for our fellow man.

Don't like NYT stats?

TWENTY - TWO A DAY.

Veterns to suicide every day. If you are not ashamed of that number you should be. 22 Warriors every day who signed up to defend this country in pain ending their lives. Twenty two people feeling so alone that they were brave enough to to defend this country but crushed by the stress and depression. Twenty two of our buddies feeling so rejected by society that they end it.

EVERY DAY.

If you are someone who says "Well they will find a way" wll you need to man up and find a way to bring them back from the edge.

Its not cool and manly to show concern for your fellow man. I don't give a rats ass. I may not be able to bring them all back, but I won't sit back like some of you keyboard warriors saying "welp that's just life" Words don't contain my contempt for that idea and I would get banned if I posted my inner thoughts.

I may not save a single one. But fuck you if you don't try.

I understand this hitting a nerve with you. Suicide usually hits a nerve with anyone involved. Near or far.

If you will note, I bolded the NYT Stats and twenty-two a day. Are those stats synonymous? I think not. There are far more suicides by other means, than by guns. The NYT article makes it look like 'Guns' are the only problem. They are not.

No one is saying you shouldn't help someone back from the edge. But I damn sure will tell the NYT to FUCK OFF for saying guns need to be taken away. Limited, yes. If he has them.

As far as that goes, you can fuck off for implying that I, or anyone here, hasn't gone well past some boundaries to get someone back from the edge of suicide. As noted, if you do this "officially" you could ruin that persons life in a hard way. That means you can't just back off when things settle down. Just like when you were in, You move stuff to a FOB, you have a plan. You clear a building, you have a plan. You bring a friend back from suicide, it's not just the night it could've happened. It's making a point to see that he doesn't wander near the edge again. It's making sure he stops at 1-2 beers and not all night at the bar, because he was off the leash that night. It's threatening drug dealers who would make a buck from his mental state. At my own risk. So FUCK YOU and your self-righteous ass for implying none of us have ever done that.
Now, go to hell and continue on...

 

[BAMCIS]

So out of 8 suicides I've known personally.
All hunters firearms owners.
Only 1 shot himself,,with 9mm subsonic.
1 jumped off a bridge,,6 hung themselves.
Let's ban rope,,it's for your safety.