Interesting take on ELR matches: Mark and Sam

Gooldylocks

Gooldylocks

the pistol shooter guy
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Jan 22, 2018
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#1
Mark and Sam posted a new video a few days back, but I don't see it being discussed. I feel like Mark makes some excellent points about the purposes of competition as a driver/testbed for innovation, as well as on how to level the playing field a bit better to account for weather. As anyone who has competed in an outdoor sport that is even slightly weather dependent can agree, sometimes you just never even get a fair shake at a competition because they weather isn't in your favor or is bad for everyone then changes to give a different group a significant advantage.

Redbull Rampage (a big freeride mountain bike competition) added weather days a few years back after significant wind and T-storms made a significant portion of the field not even get a second run on the course. I think allowing competitors to pass on their time slot and get the opportunity at another time would be great.

 
#2
First off, I watch Mark and Sam's Youtube videos and respect what they have accomplished. I like seeing their view on ELR and how their engineering / design abilities have helped them to customize their gear. As Mark says near the end of the video: "We're really trying to do our own thing", so not being into comps and all the time and $ that would entail, that's fine, to each his/her own.

Regarding Mark's comments on how comps are run and how they could be tweaked... I think the first thing he'd have to do is go compete in a few and then maybe assist event organizers on a comp. Before you can really fix something, you have to learn some of the first-hand details and live through it. I've never done an ELR comp and have only spectated once, but that was enough to appreciate how functional and efficient the competitors and the organizers are. I suspect that if I entered an ELR comp, it would be a huge learning experience, and probably a harsh and embarrassing experience.
 
#3
Gooldylocks said:
Mark and Sam posted a new video a few days back, but I don't see it being discussed. I feel like Mark makes some excellent points about the purposes of competition as a driver/testbed for innovation, as well as on how to level the playing field a bit better to account for weather. As anyone who has competed in an outdoor sport that is even slightly weather dependent can agree, sometimes you just never even get a fair shake at a competition because they weather isn't in your favor or is bad for everyone then changes to give a different group a significant advantage.

I think allowing competitors to pass on their time slot and get the opportunity at another time would be great.
Click to expand...
Sounds like total chaos!
 
#5
Hi,

Well the chaos would start with there is not enough time in the week for a 2-3 day competition to cater to everyone's desired timeframe of the day.

Maybe when Redbull wants to dump just half the money into a 2 mile comp that they dump into that mountain bike race then maybe that would be an option but in regards to comps that are barely funded to begin with; that would be a no go.

But in all seriousness...
You would have 40-50 Teams all after the same half hour time spot in morning and half hour time spot in the evening. ALL others would be at the "noted" disadvantage due to weather.
ELR is all about the science aspect so its' comps would be more related to drag racing than mountain biking. The track changes during a drag racing competition due to weather and you either know how it will affect your lane, car and driver (And account for that) or you loose.

Sincerely,
Theis
 
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#6
Gooldylocks said:
How so?
Click to expand...
I understand fully the weather condition aspect, wasn't the last KO2M a prime example? Day 2 winds way more favorable, and the # of hits reflected it.
Not sure how long you could postpone shooting your slot. A good majority of people involved are volunteers, and if someone was lucky enough to go 5 for 5 at 4k yards and a breeze picked up after. In some locals these shoots are held, it could be a week or more before the conditions were duplicated, in all fairness of coarse.
 
#7
I certainly wouldn't do it like that. But in the Rampage example, it used to be a Sunday event but was moved to Saturday so that if weather was bad there was a backup day. The same thing could be done here, where by opting out of your slot you are committing to the backup slot regardless of weather.

Devil you know vs devil you don't and all that.
 
#8
Gooldylocks said:
How so?
Click to expand...
I've RO'd a local match a few times, and always get stuck on their LR stage. It's like clockwork every year, the first 2 squads have a distinct opportunity to pick up a few points over the rest of the field who have to shoot once the wind comes up.

Someone added me to an elr facebook page, which I monitor but do not contribute. But the first 2 days of it's existence seemed to be testimonials to guys home ranges being the most dastardly places on the planet to shoot elr. That said, traveling to some place and encountering wind didn't sound like an issue. Now having to shoot 2 miles in a pouring rain may need to be addressed. lol
 
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#9
I don't agree with making the event longer for favorable conditions. I would like to see them make them longer to allow more shooters than the usual bunch that is selected when you have a limited number of slots. I think a lot of people would take their chance at good weather just to have the opportunity to shoot. It's just like trapshooting, some people may shoot when it's calm and sunny while later in the day other shooters may be shooting in wind and rain. I know it's not a great comparison but it's part of it. I would hate to see it become a fair weather sport where people start refusing to shoot because it's not ideal conditions.
 
#10
I would like to see something done to equalize the environmentals for all competitors. I understand the logistics of trying to weed out the top 8 out of 100 shooters. But, the weed out stages distances are so short the environmentals can be ignored. So, with 8 shooters it should be possible to hold man on man eliminations. Allow a 5-minute setup and alternate shots every 30-seconds. Best score moves on. The best of 8 elimination rounds could be completed in less than 2-hours.

A best of 16 would take less than 4-hours.

Cheers,
 
#11
Hi,

Here is something else to consider (Maybe)....
One of the MAIN reasons that comps such as KO2M even started was to establish a threshold in regards to what is possible on command vs what is possible at your home field while only shooting in that 30 minutes in morning or afternoon when the wind directions tend to rotate and you have a slight null in the wind with perfect weather conditions.
Because lets face it..people have been shooting 2 miles for a long time. This is nothing new. But what is new is that during the comp you do not get to pick and choose your shooting conditions so that you get the "perfect" shot. You do not get to pick and choose as to how may sighters you get before your real shots count, etc etc.

All that being said.....you could help equalize the environments by utilizing a venue that allows for 10-20 Teams to shoot at once but the cost of that comp would not be easy on the pocket book at all. The logistics of that comp would also require a lot more support equipment and volunteers to run that comp.

Sincerely,
Theis
 
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#12
Well put Theis

The KO2M alone the winds at Raton, NM start switching and changing up 8:00 am and up I have seen the wind change 180 degrees while the first shooter is setting up. FYI the winds in the mountains at the Whittington center are interesting

Cheers
Oneshot
 
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#14
It was interesting with the 8 to 13 mph winds from 5:00 shooters position pushing up the mountain side at times on day 3 causing a little updraft on and off between that and the thermo the buzzards were circling above the mountain with no efforts. Did you get a chance to see that TripleBull Somewhat interesting
 
#15
I don't think people should be able to pass on conditions. Part of this sport is being a shooter, and if you can't figure out how conditions will affect your shot....particularly at long distances where that really IS the game...what is the point?

I get the point about conditions being different for people shooting at different times. I like the concept of elimination rounds and a final where everone shoots at essentially the same time.

The last ELR (for me) I shot was multi distance out to 2K. We needed two relays with the second pulling pits for the first. I was not going to be one of the guys who demanded the relay I wanted so I left it to chance and drew second relay. Conditions for the morning relay were MUCH better than for the second. I took third and IIRC was the only one in the top 5 who shot the second relay.
 
#16
oneshot.onehit said:
It was interesting with the 8 to 13 mph winds from 5:00 shooters position pushing up the mountain side at times on day 3 causing a little updraft on and off between that and the thermo the buzzards were circling above the mountain with no efforts. Did you get a chance to see that TripleBull Somewhat interesting
Click to expand...

Yes, I was watching them inbetween shooters. Once it got rolling, the finals went quickly. It's a nice location.
 
#17
oneshot.onehit said:
Well put Theis

The KO2M alone the winds at Raton, NM start switching and changing up 8:00 am and up I have seen the wind change 180 degrees while the first shooter is setting up. FYI the winds in the mountains at the Whittington center are interesting

Cheers
Oneshot[/QUOTE

I wasn’t there , but had a look at the wind report for the area . As you mentioned , forecast was for a
switch from north to south over an hour or so . If you get lucky with a steady wind , you are always
going to do better than a nasty switch condition .

Looks like a lot of good shooters got burned by the wind this year . Yes , the only really fair way to run
any kind of shooting comp is shoulder to shoulder , as some have commented above . That’s logistically
impossible , so it is what it is . I had the thought that maybe shooters could be paired , like some types
of F Class / sling shooting . 2nd shooter has a great advantage then though , as first shooter becomes
the wind bitch .

My local range is very tricky to shoot , with huge amounts of terrain induced vertical . Depending on
what end you get , and the wind direction has a big impact in scores . The only way it evens out , is if
you shoot enough comps over time to average out the conditions .
Click to expand...
 
#18
Score them on a curve against their relay rather than each other.

If you split the field between morning and afternoon then score morning people against each other and afternoon people against each other. Top score is 100% and everyone below is a percentage of the top morning/afternoon guy.

Top 10% or 5% or whatever from morning and afternoon meet up in the finals. You could do brackets that way and it would only score people against people they are shooting alongside...not somebody who shot six hours earlier before the wind picked up.

Doing it that way allows lower scores at the head of their fields to compete against the heads from other fields without being eliminated by blind luck and condition changes.
 
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#19
The weather is what it is, and generally the winds build as you move from morning to afternoon. ELR just makes the wind effect more problematic. When we set up the Tonopah 2 Mile event, we knew the winds build on the site so we set up the relay to swap over the course of the multi-relay and multi-day event. If you went 1st the first relay of the day you started last the next relay. We were going to shoot 3 or 4 relays a day, with roughly a hour between relays for each team - so everyone was going to get beat up by the wind. All you can do is try to make if even and fair. You can't control the weather.
 
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#20
Hi,

I think that the next "progression" we see in ELR comps will not be in regards to distance but rather into precision.
I am probably going to get some negative feedback on what I am about to say lol because directly the "tactical" crowd is not benefited but indirectly it benefits the ELR genre as a whole.
I think the next progression steps in the ELR community will be 2000 yard BR comps. YES I know their rifles do not cater to most of us but let us give credit where credit is due...those guys test, evaluate and perfect reloading techniques better than any other shooting genre. A LOT of "How and Why" in the precision ammunition world has come and comes from them.
When the BR crews start shooting 2000 yards BR style groups we will see the repeatable and predictable distance increase at the same rate we see their group size decrease.

Sincerely,
Theis
 
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#21
THEIS, not sure anyone that shoots in this arena would agree with your distinction that the "ELR community" employs less than "perfect reloading techniques" and are not actively testing/evaluating/perfecting that you pin solely on the "BR crew"? (i.e. recurring theme in the Mark+Sam vids)

It is much tidier to walk to the 600y line and measure a group more times in a day than at the distances that are trendy at the moment.

and it would also appear (IMHO) to the casual observer, that the rifles on the line at a K02m/ULR match distinctly match those at most BR comps? I sure didn't see any slings/mag extenders/Harris bipods/IR illuminators/NV bridges/etc.?

I get the "gist" of your point and agree, that groups on paper at much greater distances will progress the viability and repeatability as more is learned, recorded and absorbed.
 
#22
Hi,

I never said "ONLY" BR crews were perfecting reloading techniques but to think the techniques and procedures in reloading being done by ELR crews did NOT come from the BR crews is crazy; because that is absolutely where they came from :)
Example--Micrometer Dies. The ELR Community did not come up with that; the BR Community did.
Example--Neck Turning. Same thing.
Example--Run Out gauges. Same thing.
What I am saying is that I think the "shunning" of the BR crews by the ELR Community is not good for the overall progression of the ELR Community.
If the ELR Community can get the BR community involved in the advancement of the genre; then we all reap the benefits!!

In regards to KO2M rifles compared to BR rifles....how many of those used this year are not going to make the weight limit reduction next year?

Sincerely,
Theis
 
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#24
If you can't or don't want to shoot in the wind, stay home. IDK, luck of the draw puts you where you are, deal with it and make the best of it. It's the way she goes. It wasn't the wind that got me this year and I shot late enough on day one.
 
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#25
THEIS said:
What I am saying is that I think the "shunning" of the BR crews by the ELR Community is not good for the overall progression of the ELR Community.
If the ELR Community can get the BR community involved in the advancement of the genre; then we all reap the benefits!!
Click to expand...

Please give an example or two of the shunning you mention. I'm not really a member of the ELR community per se. Probably ELR Wannabe Community is closer to the truth. I study it, I practice it at a fairly mundane level and I'd like to do more more and shoot longer. But I certainly don't shun BR people or knowledge. I try to learn from every discipline to see what practices are worth my time.

Your second comment above certainly sounds reasonable, but I'm not sure how BR'ers would get into the ELR world. You could set up a mile BR comp or a 2K BR comp and try to lure a few in, I guess. But the benchrest shooters I'm met are pretty focused on doing their thing, so it sounds like an uphill battle. The BR crowd is pretty funky and they for sure have been driven and innovative over the years.
 
#27
TripleBull said:
Please give an example or two of the shunning you mention. I'm not really a member of the ELR community per se. Probably ELR Wannabe Community is closer to the truth. I study it, I practice it at a fairly mundane level and I'd like to do more more and shoot longer. But I certainly don't shun BR people or knowledge. I try to learn from every discipline to see what practices are worth my time.

Your second comment above certainly sounds reasonable, but I'm not sure how BR'ers would get into the ELR world. You could set up a mile BR comp or a 2K BR comp and try to lure a few in, I guess. But the benchrest shooters I'm met are pretty focused on doing their thing, so it sounds like an uphill battle. The BR crowd is pretty funky and they for sure have been driven and innovative over the years.
Click to expand...
In a month from now, there will be a 2k benchrest-fclass match held in Townsend Mt, and some top BR shooters will be trying their luck at it.
I cannot answer for the guy you quoted, but sighter shots are allowed, which goes against all the other elr rules of engagement, and if someone does really well or puts up some decent groups, you can bet your ass someone will be crying foul.
 
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#28
Tough for me to understand this debate on whether or not the BR crowd will somewhat migrate to the ELR competition world. Most BR shooters are in the east where they are lucky to find 600-1000 yards to shoot. They have VERY FEW places to shoot the big stuff to get proficient, not to mention travel time and expense to mid country to way beyond to compete in ELR. Ask me how I know.
 
#29
VaRandy said:
Tough for me to understand this debate on whether or not the BR crowd will somewhat migrate to the ELR competition world. Most BR shooters are in the east where they are lucky to find 600-1000 yards to shoot. They have VERY FEW places to shoot the big stuff to get proficient, not to mention travel time and expense to mid country to way beyond to compete in ELR. Ask me how I know.
Click to expand...
Being an accurate shooter member you should know exactly what was meant, bringing an even higher level of load development to the game. And in doing so using smaller cases to accomplish it.
I still find it amusing the auto triclker system was introduced to the BR crowd first, and it was the prs guys ran with the ball.
 
#31
Hmm.
 

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#33
THEIS said:
Hi,

I think that the next "progression" we see in ELR comps will not be in regards to distance but rather into precision.
I am probably going to get some negative feedback on what I am about to say lol because directly the "tactical" crowd is not benefited but indirectly it benefits the ELR genre as a whole.
I think the next progression steps in the ELR community will be 2000 yard BR comps. YES I know their rifles do not cater to most of us but let us give credit where credit is due...those guys test, evaluate and perfect reloading techniques better than any other shooting genre. A LOT of "How and Why" in the precision ammunition world has come and comes from them.
When the BR crews start shooting 2000 yards BR style groups we will see the repeatable and predictable distance increase at the same rate we see their group size decrease.

Sincerely,
Theis
Click to expand...

Agreed totally. This is the missing element in the current competitions. We are not seeing enough "like against like" shooting (conditions, time, squads) and there is the same grumblestilkskins responses to anything that is not shooting on steel.

With the advances in e-targets, I would see 5 target sets that measure group size and score coming into play. And don't give me guff about wifi ranges - there is always a solution if you want it.
 
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