I just ran across this video on another forum and thought many here may be interested.
TKH (4628)
TKH (4628)
Interesting Video
- Thread starter tonykharper
- Start date
This is part of several in a series by the same fellow on the topic.
The final part, is here and the observations in the last half are worth hearing.
The final part, is here and the observations in the last half are worth hearing.
I enjoyed the series of videos and it kinda highlights what you see here in the comments and out on the range. Plenty of light strike observations here on the Hide with the fix being a stronger firing pin spring or a couple of turns out on the firing pin. Mainly with Eley ammo but if you are spending that much on a 22lr, you should be able to at least fire all the major match brands. The difference in the barrel dimensions was an interesting find and seems to be why some of these rifles experience light strikes while others do not. I have had a rifle on order with Kenny since last November so I am interested in seeing how it shoots once I get it.
If you watch the entire series, Kenny will tell you his correspondance with Vudoo and that an agreement has been made that he will be supplying custom barreled action in the near future.
Good there is a agreement and they are making right, my concern is identification and remedy of the underlining issues in the whole process that allowed that type of QC screw up.
Watched the videos and found them imformative. BUT here is a critique of his methods and conclusions of previous video:
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I also watched the videos, he goes in from the start with an axe to grind.
No comment on the issues or how the measurements were obtained, as he only showed one measurement on video.
Selling a service by creating a YouTube series on the real or perceived faults of a company is pretty low.
No comment on the issues or how the measurements were obtained, as he only showed one measurement on video.
Selling a service by creating a YouTube series on the real or perceived faults of a company is pretty low.
Did you watch the entire series? There are 4 parts. I'm just curious on why you would say he has an "Axe to grind"? He was sent 2 guns with obvious problems to repair. He confirmed the issues, showed what he determined to be the problems and then walked through his methodology on how he builds them. I personally don't believe he created a series to sell a service, prior to this series he had already gained a great reputation as a custom RimX and Vudoo builder that does fantastic work.
I watched part of the first video, and stopped as soon as he showed what ammo he was using. Vudoo is designed and built to shoot Lapua or SK ammo. I'm not saying you can't shoot other ammo with them, but if you're claiming that they have all kinds of problems coming from the factory, at least use the known benchmark ammo to begin with.
He started bashing Vudoo before he ever got to the ammo, so I would say he's got an axe to grind, is a Vudoo hater, or has an agenda to promote. Everyone knows, or should know that you can get "rim lock" if you don't load the magazines correctly, so that isn't a problem, so much as operator error.
There are plenty of Vudoo haters on SH, that's fine. Like what you like, other people will like what they like. Going out of your way to bash a product seams like the bias has taken over.
He started bashing Vudoo before he ever got to the ammo, so I would say he's got an axe to grind, is a Vudoo hater, or has an agenda to promote. Everyone knows, or should know that you can get "rim lock" if you don't load the magazines correctly, so that isn't a problem, so much as operator error.
There are plenty of Vudoo haters on SH, that's fine. Like what you like, other people will like what they like. Going out of your way to bash a product seams like the bias has taken over.
Yes I watched the whole series, got distracted at a few parts.
The light primer strikes looks like an issue. Claims the mags do not work, but never shows what is actually going on. Claims it is not rimlock. Shows terrible groups.
Claims one barrel drags when removing, but never gives us the pitch diameter or major measurements to show it is out of tolerance.
Claims the engraving varies by .015, but is placing the bullet in the chamber and attempting to measure with a depth gage and the barrel sitting on the bench at an awkward angle.
I could go on.
I’m surprised he didn’t play triumphant music while shooting his barrels at the end.
The light primer strikes looks like an issue. Claims the mags do not work, but never shows what is actually going on. Claims it is not rimlock. Shows terrible groups.
Claims one barrel drags when removing, but never gives us the pitch diameter or major measurements to show it is out of tolerance.
Claims the engraving varies by .015, but is placing the bullet in the chamber and attempting to measure with a depth gage and the barrel sitting on the bench at an awkward angle.
I could go on.
I’m surprised he didn’t play triumphant music while shooting his barrels at the end.
The magazine issues on the video weren’t rim lock related issues so I don’t know where you were going with that. I didn’t feel like he had an axe to grind. In the beginning, sure he was a bit abrasive but I would be to if I just spent X amount of dollars and had issues. The buyers of these rifles and from what he says 5 more all had issues with their rifles. You can peruse these very forums and find others with similar issues with light primer strikes. A 3k dollar rifle shouldn’t only be able to shoot one brand of ammo. Nothing against Vudoo but sending their actions to select gunbuilders will only be a benefit IMO. Vudoo makes one hell of a 22lr.
He mentioned "rim lock" at the beginning of the first video.
I never said they shouldn't shoot other ammo, but if a chamber is specifically designed for a certain ammo, use that before criticizing "production* rifle problems" while using other ammo.
I've put over 1k rounds though my Vudoo, and haven't experienced the problems he highlighted at the beginning of video #1....other than my son-in-law loading a mag wrong, and inducing the "rim lock" issue.
*ETA, I don't consider Vudoo a "production rifle", when you get it "built to order". He did say he got them as barreled actions...so, it could also be problems with him doing the assembly...like when he said the actions were torqued to 45 inch pounds, when Vudoo says to do 65.
That’s like saying a Ferrari should run fine on 87 octane and Walmart clearance tires.
Once I saw the Eley I knew he was trying to paint the vudoo in the worst light possible. The guy knew what he was doing.
He states that he knows about the rim lock issue and knows how to load the magazine properly. That’s why he talks about rim lock. Just because your rifle is absolutely perfect doesn’t mean that someone else doesn’t have issues. Even if the chamber is designed for only one type of ammo, I would still be upset that I only had one brand to choose from. So it is a production issue if only one brand of ammo can be used. Why not make the tolerances accept Eley as well as Lapua? There is zero reason why you can not have a chamber designed Around Lapua and have it shoot Eley as well.
? So Eley Tenex is 87 octane fuel and Lapua center X is 94 octane? Lol. Really grasping at straws there. That is more akin to only have to buy you 94 octane or whatever only at Chevron while having to skip the Race Track or BP because their 94 octane wouldn’t work.
Did you read my response to understand, or just to respond? I never said they shouldn't be able to use other ammo. Go back and make an attempt to comprehend what I posted, rather than how you just want to argue.
None of us has said they wouldn't/shouldn't shoot other ammo...especially match grade ammo, but if he's going to give it an "honest shake" at least start with the benchmark ammo they were designed for.
If I put out a video saying my "insert match grade gun name here" shoots like crap and has continuous failure to eject & failure to fire issues, and I'm using Thunderbolt ammo...you'd probably call me out on it.
Here is what you said
I never said they shouldn't shoot other ammo, but if a chamber is specifically designed for a certain ammo, use that before criticizing "production* rifle problems" while using other ammo.
You still should be able to use other high quality ammo and it should still be able to function. Therefore, it is a fair test to see if a rifle will function properly.
He said he measured the rim at .045 on the Center-X. Funny I get closer to .0414. If he cannot get this measurement right, how can I trust the rest.
You still don't comprehend what was posted. Getting really close to the "ignore" option.
No I am not. I think you are. If all you can shoot is Lapua for your rifle to function properly then that’s a problem. It’s not like he is using crap ammo. I am not even going into the groups. I am just saying the rifle should at least function
You're still missing the point. FFS...if you're going to "call out problems", you start with the benchmark of all things in consideration.
So when evaluating a Vudoo, you should only use Lapua branded ammo and nothing else should be considered? Gotcha
Ignore option engaged. Keep shooting stingers in a match chamber, and shorts in a 10/22 while complaining it's a .22 it should run everything perfect.
What i want to know is how and the hell does a barrel know what it's been "specifically " chambered for. That hole nonsense is bs it should be able to shoot any ammo not just lapua or sk. What that tells me is they've cut a short chamber. Ammo specific chambers lmao
So Eley Tenex is akin to shooting a stinger or a 22 short now…. So what ammo is suitable for evaluation in a Vudoo rifle?
Lapua or SK…..the ammo it was designed around
Aside from everything else, when he had trouble spinning the barrel off he had the scope base attached. I’m guessing that was why but I’m not a gunsmith.
Ok. So people who buy these rifles should only expect Lapua ammo to function properly…. Good to know. Personally I would expect more and I hope future customers are duly informed. Thanks
You asked “what ammo is suitable for evaluation in a Vudoo rifle?”
I shoot Eley in my Vudoo with the proper followers and stronger firing pin spring. It shoots very well. If you start out with a Vudoo as it comes using Eley and have issues it shouldn’t be a surprise.
And does it still shoot Lapua? I do find specific followers interesting though and why the need? Is feeding the actual bullet that different? I honestly don’t know. So would you need magazines labeled for Eley only and Lapua only? I personally wouldn’t want to switch followers every time I decide to switch ammo. If a stronger firing pin fixes the issue and still fires Lapua, why not make that change across the board? My guess is that tolerances come in to play as outlined in said video. Regardless, I am out. I just think Vudoo should come out with a solution that allows the user to at least buy and use ammo from more than one brand (SK and Lapua is essentially same brand). No other rifle out there is that ammo specific that I know of from the magazine to the firing pin spring.
Mine shoots everything well honestly. The followers are just ground down to a steeper angle. Both lapua and Eley feed fine with the modified followers. I don’t know all the reasoning and don’t really care. I’ve put over 25k rounds through my Vudoo at this point. I just know what works. My biggest complaint about Vudoo factory barreled actions is their “heavy” contour isn’t heavy for shit which makes more set ups rear heavy without adding weight but I have a blank that’ll fix that when I take the time to have it spun up.
Even better on that one is he used the same cartridge for both after it had been engraved by the first barrel.
The rim thickness on Eley and Lapua are different. There are different methodologies I've read around how much your headspace should be, and if you want it exact to your rim thickness, or if you want to partially 'crush' your rim. I've heard of different things, I don't know.
I think the rim thickness for Center-X is .041 and for Eley it's .039. SAAMi spec is .043. When I used to do my own headspacing with my Tikka T1X, I would change my headspace for when I shot Eley ammo or when I shot Lapua ammo to get the most out of accuracy.
When buying a Vudoo, I expect it to shoot as well as it can, and if that's with one certain ammo, that's great. And if they want to chamber it exactly to the Lapua spec that's great too. Whatever if I can be told go shoot this ammo and I'll guarantee you great results, that's what I want.
If you want something different, then you can do something different. You can go to DI Precision or Modacam, and they can chamber it with whatever you want. You can do a generic headspacing, a generic chamber. I mean there's a reamer called Eley EPS, what do you think that reamer was reaming for? You can go do a generic Bentz chamber that shoots everything alright... a lot of production rifles will do something like that. Proof prefits for RImX are basically Bentz chambers, PVA barrels are, and Bergara probably has some considerations too. Any "production" rifle will want to work on everything for the sake of not having to deal with CS issues, and people wanting to chamber the overly large CCI-SV.
Now from the videos, the rifles do look like RMA considerations that the headspace was that loose. If for example the headspace was .044 and out of spec, then yeh that sucks. That means a .041 Lapua might barely go off, and a .039 Eley will get light strikes. I am not going to debate that thing.
I knew what I was getting into when I bought my Vudoos, and that I was going to shoot SK/Lapua. I already spoke to them about wanting to shoot Eley ammo, and if I wanted to go that route and max out a pure Eley shooting, they do have recommended gunsmiths that will do the work - DI Precision and Modacam to name 2 of them.
I think the rim thickness for Center-X is .041 and for Eley it's .039. SAAMi spec is .043. When I used to do my own headspacing with my Tikka T1X, I would change my headspace for when I shot Eley ammo or when I shot Lapua ammo to get the most out of accuracy.
When buying a Vudoo, I expect it to shoot as well as it can, and if that's with one certain ammo, that's great. And if they want to chamber it exactly to the Lapua spec that's great too. Whatever if I can be told go shoot this ammo and I'll guarantee you great results, that's what I want.
If you want something different, then you can do something different. You can go to DI Precision or Modacam, and they can chamber it with whatever you want. You can do a generic headspacing, a generic chamber. I mean there's a reamer called Eley EPS, what do you think that reamer was reaming for? You can go do a generic Bentz chamber that shoots everything alright... a lot of production rifles will do something like that. Proof prefits for RImX are basically Bentz chambers, PVA barrels are, and Bergara probably has some considerations too. Any "production" rifle will want to work on everything for the sake of not having to deal with CS issues, and people wanting to chamber the overly large CCI-SV.
Now from the videos, the rifles do look like RMA considerations that the headspace was that loose. If for example the headspace was .044 and out of spec, then yeh that sucks. That means a .041 Lapua might barely go off, and a .039 Eley will get light strikes. I am not going to debate that thing.
I knew what I was getting into when I bought my Vudoos, and that I was going to shoot SK/Lapua. I already spoke to them about wanting to shoot Eley ammo, and if I wanted to go that route and max out a pure Eley shooting, they do have recommended gunsmiths that will do the work - DI Precision and Modacam to name 2 of them.
Tell me how it was designed for lapua . Do you actually know the specs or you just regurgitating what you've heard?
Post 7618 from Mike on the Vudoo V-22 thread - they use a custom chamber designed around Lapua ammunition.
Some "outside looking in" observations (in no specific order):
- Eley brass is harder than other brands. Light strikes are a known Eley issue for more than a year even in properly headspaced rifles.
- The Eley EPS bullet is known to not function well with any magazine fed system since its introduction.
- The EPS bullet shape is different than RWS, Lapua and all other brands. I believe there is a different Vudoo magazine follower (at a minimum) to assist in better feeding. Not surprising he had feed issues.
- Different "chassis" are known to require adjustments to the magazine catch to ensure it is in the proper location for consistent feeding.
- The standard rim thickness is different between Lapua and Eley - which some FTF and light strikes can be addressed with adjustment of the bolt and use of different springs supplied by Vudoo with their rifles. This solution is for minor tuning and not for major (barrel/action) headspace issues.
- Even though a "customized" ammo-specific chamber is used on a barrel, other ammunition brands WILL be able to be used. They may chamber with additional difficulty, etc. however if it is in spec it will go "pew".
- Galling of a threaded barrel can happen, even when all threads (male & female) are in tolerance and anti-seize is used. It does not take much on close tolerance threaded components to cause an issue.
There were some interesting parts of the video series, however I thought the initial approach - specifically the wording - at times was rather strong to the point of overly aggressive. Neutrality and facts go a long way in presenting one's findings. I guess this is more a personal view, however it did turn me off at the outset - and I have no dog in this fight.
I do agree with a prior observation that Vudoo is more in the realm of "custom assembler" vs "custom rifle builder" simply due to the quantity of rifles being produced. With that said, they appear to be putting out a product with a high level of customer satisfaction and following. In addition, their Customer service has been noted by many to be first rate - and that is not a common business aspect in today's world.
YMMV.
Regards,
Ken
IMO, this just shows how important headspace is when the chamber engraves the bullet. If the bullet is engraved by the lands/grooves, and there is 0.010" gap between the rim and the breechface (like the rifles in the videos), then the firing pin has to push the bullet that 0.010" further into the lands/grooves before the rim can be smashed, which would take quite a bit of the firing pins energy, ending in a lighter strike than intended. If the chamber doesn't engrave the bullet, then the cartridge is free to move forward that 0.010". I'm starting to see more value in the "bentz" length chamber (not quite short enough to engrave).
This is an excellent observation. In his comments near the end of Part 4, the video maker acknowledged that his language was perhaps too sharp. While his videos may suffer for his tone, it may sound more reserved than that of shooters who didn't anticipate issues with their new Vudoo rifles.
Like 1813Benny, I don't have a dog in this fight either, but I'd be disappointed with FTF for any match ammo in any .22 rimfire rifle, expensive or not.
CBeck,
From your comment about the trouble spinning the barrel off "he had the scope base attached". I see others agreed with you.
Is that to say these holes are through holes and will allow the base screws to directly contact the barrel?
If this is the case, I would encourage everyone to make sure these screws do not make contact with the barrel.
It is never a good idea for scope base screws to contact a barrel.
It was not a good idea when we had scope bases on the barrel to accommodate the long target scores of yesteryear.
Modern scopes eliminated this problem. No one needs to revisit that problem again.
TKH (4628)
This VGW video is a direct reaction to the series of videos? Or is it something less specific?
If I got a Vudoo, and it would not fire all of the Top ammo. I would be pissed that I am limited to just one brand of ammo. But I would try the others ammo first. It would go back to Vudoo to be fixed. Vudoo's should be able to fire any ammo made. If it is only going to fire Lapua/SK, then it should be labeled "only Lapua / SK+".
Mark
Mark
Sounds like it was directed towards the series. At the end he discussed headspace gauges.
They don’t only fire Lapua ammo. That’s one of the internet rumors that came from Mike saying he designed the reamer around a center X. Yes it works will Lapua but also Eley, Federal, Wolf, Norma etc that I have fired thousands of in my Vudoo.
As to that series of videos, lol.
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