Night Vision IR Defense MK III x 60

jkonzal

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Dec 1, 2011
365
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NE WA
Does anyone have any experience running the IR Defense MK III x 60 as a clip-on? I would like to try running it in front of my Kahles K624i on a 223AI because for what I'm doing I will need to be able to shoot at least 600 yards. I've run this scope on an AR-15 since 2014 (it started out as a MK II x 35) as a primary sight. I know it will require using very low magnification. Any info would be helpful.
Thanks in advance!!
Jim
 
I haven't tried it yet ... and would not try it except you aren't the first person to ask. So maybe I will try my mk3 60mm as a clipon (briefly) one afternoon and write it up ... but I'm so busy using it as a dedicated thermal scope, I have a hard time finding time to try it as a clipon ! :D

In general, thermals either have a diopter lens on the back or a collimating lens on the back. The diopter lens is designed to "focus the reticle" for humans with imperfect eyeside (such as moi). The collimating lens is designed to align the effective optical center of the clipon to the day scope optical center. Diopter lenses cannot do that.

So, when I have used diopter thermals as clipons, I leave the thermal reticle and the day scope reticle both turned on and visible. When I zero the "clipon" to the day scope, I co-witness the reticles at a particular distance, like 50yds or 100yds. When I remount the clipon later, I can observe if the reticles are still aligned. If not, I can rezero the clipon.

Summary, diopter lens thermals are not designed to be clipons. They can be used as such in a pinch, but the accuracy will not be high. When remounting, expect to live with some POI to POA mis-match or expect to re-zero. Do not expect the accuracy to be much beyond the distance you zeroed the (nada) clipon.

And also, when I've done it, both devices were 1x.

Another aspect is parallax. After clippin on .. with both reticles visible. Move your head. If there is a lot of movement of the clipon reticle, then you have parallax. Try adjusting the day scope parallax adjustment to minimize that parallax. Don't think about "focusing" on something you can see, just look at the reticles and minimize the movement of the clipon reticle with respect to the day reticle, while you move your head back and forth.

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But mainly, my advice, is, if you want a real thermal clipon to work with a real day scope like a Kahles, then I would go ahead and get a real thermal clipon. There are three, that pop into my head that support 10x or more magnification on the day scope:

N-Vision TC-50 - $11,000
https://www.adorama.com/nvtc50.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMItJXS7Jjp2AIVSZd-Ch1IsQqREAQYAiABEgKI2PD_BwE

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FLIR T-75 - $11,900
https://pr-infrared.com/product/flir-thermosight-t75-advanced-thermal-sight/

And BTW, I've seen a 10% off coupon on the PR-Infrared site. Call them and say "I will buy today if I can get 10% off - and maybe you can. Then price would be $10,700 (but mean it if you say it :) )

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BAE UTC-x - $25,000
https://www.greyfoxindustries.com/products/utc-x

You might be able to find a used one for less. You might be able to find a new one for less. The search for a "legit" UTC-x that BAE will service if it breaks is a long process. I speak from experience :D

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Any who, yes all those options are over $10k ... but if you want 10x+ magnification support on the day scope with repeatability in mounting, then you need to get a real thermal clipon.

And the MK3 60mm are not free, new ones often sell for $8k plus.

The Mk3 60mm is a thermal rifle scope and due to its 4.5x optical magnification it is a decent long distance spotter as well. It is not purpose designed as a thermal clipon since it does not have a collimating lens on the back.

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Another option is the SNIPE-IR, you can squeeze 7x (I was ok with 8x) out of it ... but the collimating lens on the one I had was not near the ball park of the "real" thermal clipons I listed above. I had to make significant adjustments when mounting it to a new rifle.
WIth the UTC-x, no adjustments are needed or even possible. Just mount and shoot and it is dead on to the POI of the day scope.

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Now all that said, what are you trying to do with that Kahles and a thermal clipon? Hunting out to 300-400yds at 6x? In that case, there are various other options that will work at 6x. Like the L-3 LWTS. Most of these options are designed to be 4x support for the day scope, but you can squeeze 6x out of them with a little fuzz. Even the Pulsar 50mm "front attach" thermal clipon will get you about 5x magnification on the day scope for well under $5k and you can squeeze that to 6x with a bit of fuzz.

Where the 10x+ clipons work is for target shooting out behind 500yds ... out to say 900yds on heated steel. That's what I do with my UTC-x.
We use 12x24 inch silhouettes and beyond 900yds with any wind, those are tough to hit. But we practice out to 900yds and they work out that far.
That said, if you want to target shoot steel at night out to 900yds, then a PVS-30 refurb and a good illluminator will get that job done for under $6k for sure (you might have to change your rings).
 
Hey Wig, thank you for all that info!! I am using my 223AI bolt gun (PRS Trainer) for day time coyote hunting over calving cows. Based on the size of the main field I need to be able to shoot at least 600 yards. My MKIII has always been primary on an AR-15. From what you are saying, I probably need to keep it on there and use a different reticle and figure out the hold-overs. I have always used the plain cross reticle and zeroed at 200 yards. The gun shoots 69gr SMK's at about 2900 fps. Hot, but very accurate load!!
 
600yds at night, right? "over" meaning you are shooting OVER the calving cows !! Oh boy! Not sure my calving cows would like supersonic bullets flying over their heads !!! :D
I have desensitized them a lot ... but I haven't tried shooting over their heads, whether calving or not!
Ok, so anyway, that is what you are doing. And you want to do this at night?

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Well 600yds with the critter as the reticle would not be too easy. The Mk3 reticles are hunting reticles, designed for under 300yds and the subtensions are for ranging with the critters and holding for movers. None of those reticles are for holding for elevation or wind. So the critter would be the reticle.
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If you don't want to spend over $10k to get one of the clipons I listed above, then I would try the PVS-30 refurb with a good illuminator. That will give you up to 16x with the day scope and you can use your day scope reticle. Those are going for under $5k and illuminators can be had for under $350.
I think you can get both together for under $5k these days.

And you said "at least" 600yds ... I'm not sure the coyotes I've seen around here are gonna stand still long enough for the bullet to get there ... can you try calling them in closer !!??

You can still use that mk3 60mm as your thermal spotter ... so it won't go to waste ... spot them with the thermal then get on the gun with the PVS-30 and the illuminator and see if you can get lucky!
 
Thanks for your help. I appreciate and respect your knowledge of nightvision/thermal. I have read nearly all of your posts over the years. In using the term "over" I didn't mean shooting over, I meant watching over. No shots will be taken in line with or near any cattle. I will look into the PVS-30. I don't claim to have your knowledge level with night optics, but based on my knowledge level of long range shooting, I'm fairly certain a DOPE sheet can be made with a couple of the reticles that are in the MKIII. I also use a suppressor and dogs around here are very call shy so getting them to come closer can be challenging.
 
Glad to hear I mis-interpreted the use of "over" !!!

I'm fairly certain a DOPE sheet can be made with a couple of the reticles that are in the MKIII.

Yes, you have 5 and 10 mil subtensions to work with on the Mk3 reticles ... and a few 2.5 mil subtensions ... can you work with that? Sure. But it won't be like working with the reticle in your Khales ! So, I still say "the critter is your reticle", meaning "how many yote heights above the yote do you need to hold at 500yds at 600yds etc. ?" Or "how many yote lengths do you need to hold to the left or right of the yote to account for lead and wind?"

The flight time of the round at 600yds combined with the proclivity of the yotes to be doing something other than standing still, make it tough. Plus ability of 5.56 bullets to "power thru" the wind ... not being the greatest.

It will certainly be a challenge !

But if you're already doing this in the day with the Khales, then the only real difference will be the reticle and maybe your zero. To quote a fellow forumite, "zero the sh^t" out of it !!! As with the mk3 shooting critters at 300yds or less and zeroing with a hand warming, It is tougher to get to the point where all the rds are in one hole. a less than 1 inch group at 50yds (hunting zero) is still a sub 2 MOA group, not a sub 1 MOA group. And that works for hunting "large" critters under 300yds, but for 600yds, need a smaller aiming point for zeroing.

What do you (will you) use to determine the distance to the yotes?

Are you shooting off a tripod?

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Net/net, for over about 350yds at night, I think I'm a believer in using a GOOD clipon. That enables you to use your real scope. And then you know where you are.
 
Oh, I keep forgetting about the SIMRAD !!!

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There was a guy around here selling them for under half the price of the refurb pvs30s ... so if cash is an issue we can try to rustle that guy up. They are big and bulky but get the job done.

Maybe KSE will weigh in on your issue ... he's definitely a long distance night coyote hunter!