Night Vision IR Laser/Illuminator advice
- Thread starter Jlknights61
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The dirty one? Not many. I got it used and when it arrived it was clear the knucklehead had mounted it too close to the muzzle brake. I cleaned it up using alcohol and Q-tips, which did a pretty good job. But the cap should be replaced. There’s some spatter in the green laser pattern, even though the laser point itself is still good. The IR laser has a little less spatter and it has not affected the Illuminator, which is still solid. Basically, it’s all due to carbon buildup. If it doesn’t go to a new home I’ll send it into BEM for refresh.
This thread is relevant to my interests. Right now I think I'm pretty set on a DBAL D2, but after watching videos on the ELIR-3 I'm considering option 2 being a DBAL-I2 and ELIR-3 combo? They are both roughly the same cost with the benefit of the option 1 a single package, and option 2 you have a lightsaber/full power illuminator.
What would you guys recommend
What would you guys recommend
Both will fill that role pretty well. At the end of the day, the Dbal D2 is likely a tad more durable than the Luna ELIR-3 being the D2 is all aluminum vs the Luna is made out of thermoplastic. But you can use the Luna to give Zombie's itchy eyes if you need to whereas the D2 can't do that. So they both got a better feature over the other in some respects, so it's kind of a personal preference at the end of the day.
Either setup is a pretty good choice.
Either setup is a pretty good choice.
I would 100% buy a luna but i wouldn't expect too much out of it. It's basically a really bad ass adjustable beam in terms of direction and width. It's great for hand held, just so-so for weapon mount. I would never choose a luna over a real purpose-built high power weapon mounted laser illuminator. Really really good as a handheld thing though, especially for the price.
Thanks, yeah that's what I'm balancing. The ELIR looks nice for the lightsaber effect and ability to illuminate at greater distances.
In your opinion is there any other options I should be considering in the <$1k range? Or something better I could piece together for the price?
I'm mainly leaning towards the D2 because of Steiner quality and ruggedness (warranty is nice but irrelevant in the hypothetical end of world/zombie scenario).
I run Steiner's Dbals exclusively and I also put all of my optics, both day and thermal up on 3/4 rail risers mainly to get a better more natural cheek/chin weld such that you are not scrunched down low on your stock.
Using the 3/4 " risers I can get the same results as the "Skyscraper Mount's" made by Unity Tactical and others without having to buy those particular mounts. To me the Steiners are not really that tall, but have a much better mounting system and aftermarket American Defense Mount availability vs L3 PEQ 15 mounts which are pretty crappy.
I do have Luna ELIR-3 slaved to civi Dbal A3's and they work perfectly and perform on par with a PEQ LA5 B.
Using the 3/4 " risers I can get the same results as the "Skyscraper Mount's" made by Unity Tactical and others without having to buy those particular mounts. To me the Steiners are not really that tall, but have a much better mounting system and aftermarket American Defense Mount availability vs L3 PEQ 15 mounts which are pretty crappy.
I do have Luna ELIR-3 slaved to civi Dbal A3's and they work perfectly and perform on par with a PEQ LA5 B.
I dont have any experience with the Holosuns but Jeffl838 reports above good luck out of them.
IMHO going with the Steiner OTAL slaved with a Luna ELIR-3 or the Dbal D2, dollar for dollar is the best performance you can get for about $1,000 dollars.
I am a Steiner (formerly LDI) bigot just because they have been around for a long time and make solid MFAL/LAM, are American made and are of known reliability.
At some point in time out there, you will need the power of a strong illuminator to get the job done to overcome photonic barriers. I do not know of anything better than the 2 recommendations above other than to source some grey market full power units and you are then up in the $1,600 and above market then for units with clean provenance but zero warranty.
Try cleaning the lenses with a new # 2 pencil eraser. A guy smarter than me told me it works on MAWLS.
Here's my take on this subject:
Since then a few more builds have happened/will happen, so I'm moving the above setup to the Griffin RECCE build, and I'm going to go TNVC Steiner VPC paired with an Inforce WMLx IR on the 5.56 shorty & 300blk shorty. This will run me about $420/gun compared to the cheapest other option I've looked at which is the I2(IR laser/illuminator, no vis laser), which I've found on sale for $650. And that would still need to run with a white light of some sort + cool switches probably.
I may also pick up a Luna Optics LN-ELIR for handheld use(I've heard they can be made Class 3, but I don't actually know how).
I'm going that route b/c the Surefire M640v's specs are not as good, to the tune of 350 lumens white light and 120mw IR(also 2x the cost). The WMLx is 700 lumens white light and 400mw IR. For comparison, the DBAL-D2 is 600mw IR. The A3 & I2 use laser illuminators, so they really are anemic in comparison to the LED illuminators. Another positive is that the Steiner VPC uses an adjustable IR laser, which maxes out at 0.7mw, same as the D2 - this is actually really bright and blooms, especially on reflective walls. For CQB like the shorty's might be meant for, having less IR lume, less white light, and an adjustable laser seems like an acceptable move. Of course, this setup doesn't allow for switches, so there's that to consider, but my understanding is that one doesn't move around in the night with lasers/lights switched to ON anyway, they're for momentary use.
One other option to consider is the DBAL-PL; it's a pistol light, but the stats are the same as the D2 and it comes with a 400 lumen white light. The new version has a port for a tape switch, so it can be used with a rifle more easily, however, the illuminators have to run with their respective laser(visible/ir).
To sum it up, what I'm thinking of using here is the cheapest version and very flexible. I don't have to move my D2 around and re-zero as was suggested elsewhere in the thread and I'm not stuck mounting two lights(white & IR) plus a laser etc.
And I can always upgrade to a couple MAWL's if I need to haha.
- I ended up going DBAL-D2 so I wouldn't have to think about running a separate illuminator.
- I started by comparing the DBAL-A3 and D2. Purchased the A3 bc smaller.
- Changed my mind and decided I’d skip the daytime laser and go DBAL-I2 w/ illuminator.
- Changed mind again for TNVC Steiner VPC and separate illuminator a la Modlite with IR head bc Surefire vampire lights aren’t that powerful and I’d heard about too many white light ND’s.
- Realized it’s probably best to have a white light all the time though. So now I’ve got the D2 and PHLv2 Modlite on rifle, Surefire x300v on pistol, and Inforce WML IR on helmet.
Since then a few more builds have happened/will happen, so I'm moving the above setup to the Griffin RECCE build, and I'm going to go TNVC Steiner VPC paired with an Inforce WMLx IR on the 5.56 shorty & 300blk shorty. This will run me about $420/gun compared to the cheapest other option I've looked at which is the I2(IR laser/illuminator, no vis laser), which I've found on sale for $650. And that would still need to run with a white light of some sort + cool switches probably.
I may also pick up a Luna Optics LN-ELIR for handheld use(I've heard they can be made Class 3, but I don't actually know how).
I'm going that route b/c the Surefire M640v's specs are not as good, to the tune of 350 lumens white light and 120mw IR(also 2x the cost). The WMLx is 700 lumens white light and 400mw IR. For comparison, the DBAL-D2 is 600mw IR. The A3 & I2 use laser illuminators, so they really are anemic in comparison to the LED illuminators. Another positive is that the Steiner VPC uses an adjustable IR laser, which maxes out at 0.7mw, same as the D2 - this is actually really bright and blooms, especially on reflective walls. For CQB like the shorty's might be meant for, having less IR lume, less white light, and an adjustable laser seems like an acceptable move. Of course, this setup doesn't allow for switches, so there's that to consider, but my understanding is that one doesn't move around in the night with lasers/lights switched to ON anyway, they're for momentary use.
One other option to consider is the DBAL-PL; it's a pistol light, but the stats are the same as the D2 and it comes with a 400 lumen white light. The new version has a port for a tape switch, so it can be used with a rifle more easily, however, the illuminators have to run with their respective laser(visible/ir).
To sum it up, what I'm thinking of using here is the cheapest version and very flexible. I don't have to move my D2 around and re-zero as was suggested elsewhere in the thread and I'm not stuck mounting two lights(white & IR) plus a laser etc.
And I can always upgrade to a couple MAWL's if I need to haha.
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Yes, kind of. I bought an inforce wml ir and Steiner tor mini from tnvc for a 300 blk pistol so that will have a dedicated setup. The MAWL will spend the majority of its time set up on a mk18 but may get swapped to my 6.5 grendel some. I spoke with the guys at tnvc and they said I should have no worries swapping the MAWL between guns. However, I don’t have any plans at the moment to buy another ir unit so anything I want to shoot under nods I plan to use the MAWL.
Speaking of the MAWL on multiple rifles, anyone run one on an AK? Not sure how the railed gas tube and heat issue would play with the MAWL.
If you're putting enough rounds down range to raise concern over heat, you probably don't need NV and stealth anymore....
I haven't tried it to make a direct comparison, but I chose the smaller WML for helmet use b/c it weighs less and goes on my helmet.
I’m in the vast minority here, and I don’t operate (except on shoving pizza slices into my yap, then I’m a frickin’ Ninja), so take this FWIW...
Unlike white light where, with few exceptions, more lumens are almost always better, IR lasers/illumination are different. Under MOST conditions, you’ll want to use the absolute minimum output necessary to get the “job” done effectively. Let your NODs do the work they were designed for. No need to go washing everything out and sending your tubes into highlight mode or kicking in the AG when you don’t need to.
This will also help keep your signal low and keep detection down as far as possible. You start crashing through the woods with your light saber on full bore like you’re a Special Needs kid at his first-week in Ranger School and a high-drag lardass like me will see you coming a kilometer away.
Has Inforce upgraded its housings because I have read in many forums they break a ton? The surefire 640v are rugged, but anemic for white light and IR.
I'd be using this to scan while hunting. Seems a better idea than swinging the rifle over fields if it will illuminate 200 yards plus.I’m in the vast minority here, and I don’t operate (except on shoving pizza slices into my yap, then I’m a frickin’ Ninja), so take this FWIW...
Unlike white light where, with few exceptions, more lumens are almost always better, IR lasers/illumination are different. Under MOST conditions, you’ll want to use the absolute minimum output necessary to get the “job” done effectively. Let your NODs do the work they were designed for. No need to go washing everything out and sending your tubes into highlight mode or kicking in the AG when you don’t need to.
This will also help keep your signal low and keep detection down as far as possible. You start crashing through the woods with your light saber on full bore like you’re a Special Needs kid at his first-week in Ranger School and a high-drag lardass like me will see you coming a kilometer away.
The Gen2 (supposedly) doesn't have the issues anymore:
"It’s composed of high quality plastic which I understand represents a significant upgrade from that used in Gen 1. You can find no end of stories about cracked Gen 1 units online, but Gen 2 seems to be holding up pretty well."
And for a nice comparo with light function pictures: Ultimate Guide to Weapon Lights
I’m in the vast minority here, and I don’t operate (except on shoving pizza slices into my yap, then I’m a frickin’ Ninja), so take this FWIW...
Unlike white light where, with few exceptions, more lumens are almost always better, IR lasers/illumination are different. Under MOST conditions, you’ll want to use the absolute minimum output necessary to get the “job” done effectively. Let your NODs do the work they were designed for. No need to go washing everything out and sending your tubes into highlight mode or kicking in the AG when you don’t need to.
This will also help keep your signal low and keep detection down as far as possible. You start crashing through the woods with your light saber on full bore like you’re a Special Needs kid at his first-week in Ranger School and a high-drag lardass like me will see you coming a kilometer away.
Yep, and that's why I've got a Princeton Tec Switch MPLS task light as well. The Inforce WML IR is more for use in place of a headlamp(which I'm skipping b/c it would need to go where NVG's go), e.g. for when visibility to others is less of a concern.
That and a Luna on my 10.5 " pistol with a Streamlight white light. Am planning on a D2 for my long gun for coyotes. I haven't found a mention of the throw of the 400 or 700 mW Wmlx on any site. After spending a couple hours waving my ar illuminator checking the shadows on a moonlit night, I thought a helmet mount makes more sense.
Can anyone else comment on the Inforce lights? Does the brighter one blow out up close due to the wide beam?
I like the DBAL D2 - if you get a TAPS switch it is very easy to operate and the illuminator on it is excellent and has a much longer throw than most of the other popular options with possibly the exception of the PEQ and MAWL. I think it is one of the best illuminators on the civilian market.
My only complaint about it is that it can take a few seconds to twist the bezel and adjust the illuminator spot size. I just run it on a medium spot size most of the time which easily reaches out to 100+ yards, and then only adjust it if shooting long (narrow) or going indoors (wide). Some people also says it actually has too much illumination indoors, but I've not had an issue with it and you can always bounce the light off the floor or wall if you want it more diffuse inside, much as you would with a high intensity white light.
The MAWL does have better ergonomics as you have one switch to go between wide/med/narrow beam on the illuminator, but its also $1300-1500 more in price. If you are shooting a lot and rapidly transitioning environments it may be worth it. I would probably save that money towards a thermal or a COTI instead, unless you already have that covered.
I've not personally tried the separate laser/illum setups, but I would not want one that could not be slaved together and run off a single switch as you really don't want to be sending bullets at anything you have not positively identified, and its rare you want to run one without the other.
My only complaint about it is that it can take a few seconds to twist the bezel and adjust the illuminator spot size. I just run it on a medium spot size most of the time which easily reaches out to 100+ yards, and then only adjust it if shooting long (narrow) or going indoors (wide). Some people also says it actually has too much illumination indoors, but I've not had an issue with it and you can always bounce the light off the floor or wall if you want it more diffuse inside, much as you would with a high intensity white light.
The MAWL does have better ergonomics as you have one switch to go between wide/med/narrow beam on the illuminator, but its also $1300-1500 more in price. If you are shooting a lot and rapidly transitioning environments it may be worth it. I would probably save that money towards a thermal or a COTI instead, unless you already have that covered.
I've not personally tried the separate laser/illum setups, but I would not want one that could not be slaved together and run off a single switch as you really don't want to be sending bullets at anything you have not positively identified, and its rare you want to run one without the other.
I bought the 700 mW for a helmet mount. It is a stong illuminator but it does wash put any foliage in close proximity. It's just too wide to be practical for my purpose. If Inforce comes up with an adjustable beam they will have something. Because it is also a white light I swapped out my Streamlight on my AR pistol with the Inforce on case my helmet mounted $46 Evolva/UniqueFire T20 craps out. It's cheap, focusable and throws a beam 300 yds on low power. No idea how tough it is but it's a heck of an illuminator.
Has anyone tried the Holosun all in one units like the LS420? Can’t find much info on them. Seems like the IR illuminator might be weak. Bummer
I think OP said he isn't interested in foreign produced products, but I have had good luck with the zenitco 2iks+ gen 1 and gen 3. IR Laser and IR illuminator, crazy low price.
Non focusable, but the gen 3 has adjustable power and some other perks. I dont think anything compares in the price range.
Non focusable, but the gen 3 has adjustable power and some other perks. I dont think anything compares in the price range.
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