Night Vision IR marker legality?

[Strykervet]

IR markers, what's the deal? I can buy them all day long on post, uniforms, patches, etc. I'm service disabled, not active duty, but have full access to everything on post for the most part, including Clothing and Sales. I can even get them off post. But online it seems they are restricted?

Now the one I want I can't find. It was a special insignia we had for our SDM school and I'd like to have that sewn into an IR patch. I'd like to get several so I can send some to the surviving instructor and the other instructor's survivors, particularly their kids.

I asked US Tactical for a quote. Anyone else know of a place that does this without hassle? Is there a place on post that does this (Ft. Lewis) or online? Good prices, quality workmanship, no hassle?

I noticed TNVC sent a patch with an order. Flag with their name on it (so it isn't .mil). Since it isn't an actual unit insignia I want (the black shirt uniform was restricted to this school alone) does that mean the one I want isn't restricted too?

Thanks, sorry if sound ignorant. I just know there are folks that frequent this site that are in the know on all of this. One stop questioning I guess. Anyone? Vic?

 

[Strykervet]

Wow, US Tactical got back to be already! They said they can make it. So now just looking for general answers about IR regulation and who is the best to go through for custom patches.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Papa Zero Three]

What you are referring to and what you see on some websites is what is known as an ITARs controlled item (International Traffic in Arms Regulation), which has to do with the import/export of defense related articles and services. This confuses people as most people think "guns and bullets" and nothing outside of that. Information and or tech manuals can be conssidered ITAR controlled items, a repair part by itself can fall under ITARs. As an example, a jet fighters helmet(HGU-55,etc) by itself is not ITARs controlled but the moment you put the speakers in the ear cups, it becomes an ITAR controlled item as communications equipment falls under the ITARs umbrella. Thats just one example for reference. As stated, ITARs items have import/export restrictions and what is and isn't, isn't easy for a layperson to determine and the penalties for violating them is large. For that reason, some vendors/sellers of items that are known ITARs controlled items won't sell to non Gov't organizations/LEO,etc. as it creates a liability chain that could comeback on the vendor/seller.

The IR reflective patches you are wanting are one of the items that is considered ITAR restricted, just like NVGs, and as such some vendors/sellers don't want the hasle or liability of getting hit with an ITARs violation.Thats just a quick down and dirty explanation of ITARs and is not intended to be a comprehensive explanation.

 

[Strykervet]

Yeah, I figured it had to do with ITAR. I started to write that and decided not to.

So IR patches aren't controlled like, say, a PEQ-2A by the FDA (or some other alphabet soup organization)? This is just a CYA thing some companies do, you think?

I understand the implications of sending military gear overseas and don't do it. I'm not fueling their wars and shit or supplying a shooter with tools he can't get elsewhere or selling current military technology to a person in another nation that wants it. I don't even sell anything other than parts to other Americans, and when I do sell the very rare weapon FTF, I require a carry permit (my only way of doing a background check; I've been called a dick for requiring this when the law doesn't) or else they go through a dealer if not local. That way, either a dealer transferred it, or I have a bill of sale with SN and his CC permit number as well. I try to do shit the right way, I really do go out of my way to do it. And I guess it is a CYA thing for me too.

So there is no regulation of IR patches other than the usual ITAR? If that's the case, it should just say so but be available to civilians; the ITAR language is the warning. So other than CYA over ITAR, anyone think of a reason they are only available to military in a lot of instances?

It seems I've found a place to make mine, they got back to me and asked for pictures it. So it can be done. I was just wondering at this point if anyone knows of a good place to go with low prices, or if US Tactical is good place to do business with.

And TNVC, Vic, Clasky, one of you guys chime in? You sell 'em and could enlighten me why I may not be able to buy IR patches from you, but I can buy real IR unit patches and IR tabs from the base? Now I don't need one of those, I'm not playing soldier. I just want some custom patches that you won't find on a regular military uniform. My old school patch. And I'd like enough to send to the others.

Think of it like Chris Kyle's patch. He had his own patch made up, that punisher type skull. Mine looks different, but same thing, a made up patch for all practical purposes.

 

[Papa Zero Three]

So there is no regulation of IR patches other than the usual ITAR? If that's the case, it should just say so but be available to civilians; the ITAR language is the warning. So other than CYA over ITAR, anyone think of a reason they are only available to military in a lot of instances?

ITARs is law, be found in violation of it and it is fines and or prison time potentially. IR reflective material(s) ARE controlled items, ITARs IS the regulation. A reason you ask? Here is a simplification of it: My company makes IR patches, I sell to you (and other private individuals), someone starts selling these items (exporting) to someone other than a US entity (friend or not) without proper authorization and without my knowledge/control. The USG comes after the exporter and then my company for selling and not maintaining end user control and or receiving authorization from DoS. To avoid this exposure and avoid a mountain of paperwork,most companies limit sales to gov't/state agencies.You can buy them on base because it is the gov't and typically sold only to soldiers, who are authorized to have and use.

As to your other question, LBT might be able to help you.

 

[Strykervet]

Well, I found US Tactical will make them.

So it is just a CYA thing you say. They are legal, just the protracted legal system involves them if ITAR gets stepped on. I get it. But wouldn't a waiver do the same thing? CYA? I promise to not sell it, for instance.

And besides, it isn't a military patch. It could be a Sesame Street character for all it matters. I'll probably put one on my rifle's bag when I get it, that and a real US IR flag from base. Anyway, I guess I can get it made here in a couple of weeks when their graphics guy gets back from honeymoon. No worries.

But I'd still like to hear from companies that sell this stuff, like TNVC, MOD, etc. What say you?

 

[Papa Zero Three]

But wouldn't a waiver do the same thing? CYA? I promise to not sell it, for instance.

Some companies/vendors require you to sign paperwork to that effect depending on the item and how much risk they are willing to assume.

And besides, it isn't a military patch. It could be a Sesame Street character for all it matters

Thats irrelevant. Even if it was a Sesame Street patch, if it uses ITARs controlled IR reflective materials, it would still be subject to all ITARs regulation(s). If I walk you(non US person) through my factory where I have ITARs controlled/restricted materials or you see an ITARs controlled product and don't have prior DoS approval, technically I would be in violation of ITARs and subject to fine/penalty. If I send you an email describing something/procedure/product capability,etc that is ITARs controlled with out approval, I could be in violation again. It's a very tangled web and in most instances the most innocuous item(s) fall under ITARs so just because its a widget or a doo-hickey or a wing nut, doesn't mean it isn't considered controlled.

As convoluted as it is, I would still recommend you google and read what ITARs involves if you really want to understand about it.

 

[Strykervet]

Yeah, I know a bit about it. I know everything I get comes with the warning. I know if I were to go overseas with my night vision, I'm not allowed to show it to a non-national citizen. Same with lasers and thermal and other current military technology. I can take and/or sell, I hear, gen. 1 tubes and systems overseas (not that I plan to). I just thought sales of patches to American citizens or maybe even vets would be different.

Having found a maker, I guess I'm cool now. They liked why I wanted them. If I wanted or needed the mil stuff, I know where to get it, but it isn't what I'm looking for. But thanks for the ITAR explanation, like I said, I figured it had something to do with that, I just wanted to hear what folks had to say on it.

 

[Papa Zero Three]

I know if I were to go overseas with my night vision, I'm not allowed to show it to a non-national citizen.

If you travelled outside of the US with it as a private citizen,you would be in violation of the law, period. I suggest you check out this link on TNVC's webpage for a bit of an explanation How to avoid sharing a jail cell with Bubba

 

[Strykervet]

I don't really plan to. I guess if I planned on going overseas, it would be more of a vacation, not to take a bunch of gear and shit. I know that if do carry it with me (I'm sure you've got to get papers or something from the State Dept., this is America after all) and I did it the right way, then those are also some rules --you can't let non-citizens or non-nationals in another country look at night vision gear, and they have restrictions on all but gen 1 I think.

On a side, there are all kinds of European DIY nightvision forums, I ran across a couple, from an ingenious 80's viewfinder converted into a NV pinhole cam with LED lights, rigged the battery inside and used the viewfinder for the image. Ingenious. Or the other fellow that used three gen one tubes in a PVC pipe with an adj. obj. from a camera or scope of some kind to get a decent image with gen 1 tubes, again, genius. But they don't have the stuff we have available.

And I'm not the one to share it with them, we can set that straight right now. I'm not planning on running afoul of any law, regardless of discussion of it or hairy gray areas. And I'd do a lot of research prior to doing anything like that were I going to, such as when I carry firearms on planes CONUS --you've got to find the right carrier, and do it all the right way, and it isn't a problem. Same with moving around with a suppressor, contact ATF and do it all right, do your research.

That's why I asked about the patches. Still, they can be had it seems, it just isn't easy for the average bear I guess.