Just curious, I’ve never kept a data book to record my long range shots. I primarily rely on applied ballistics after I have accurately reverse calibrated my velocity at distance within the program. I understand the benefit of a data book in which you can accurately record adjustments necessary for impacts in certain conditions, however I don’t see myself flipping through the pages of a data book to find my dope for the current atmospherics I’m shooting in. Especially not when hunting, where sometimes only a few seconds are available to dial the scope and send the shot. What are opinions here?
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Is a Data Book Necessary?
- Thread starter JA1989
- Start date
If you're only talking DOPE and environmentals, I probably don't have enough experience to weigh in, although having records for environmental effects on your actual trajectory seems pretty darn useful, esp if it ends up not jiving with your software; not hard to find reports of folks seeing inaccurate solutions from various apps.
However, if you're lumping reloading data into this question, hands down a data book is crucial. Couldn't tell you how many times I've flipped back to remind myself of one parameter/result or another, and I'll never NOT run a reloading log.
However, if you're lumping reloading data into this question, hands down a data book is crucial. Couldn't tell you how many times I've flipped back to remind myself of one parameter/result or another, and I'll never NOT run a reloading log.
I prefer to use my ballistics calulator and really understand it. I stick to my iPhone (because I don't care about wind speed at my location). I have tested my calculator for several years in various temps etc and only hunt 2 guns (that shoot the same bullet) and have tuned my bc over time for the speeds and have confidence in it up to the 800 yards I constantly shoot. Paper gets wet and lost, but phones also get lost and require power so they both have downsides. I think getting a system you really know and being confident in it is crucial but paper absolutely not required.
I think it’s worth doing just to keep track and look at trends. It’s not like you’re gonna reference all through it in the field prior to taking a shot necessary. You certainly might the morning of though. Even better, if you’ve spent some time looking back through your guns data, you will have in your head exactly where your gun needs to be dialed at various yards. This may be crucial when a shot arises and you don’t have time to screw around with AB.
Also:
AB will update occasionally and all your data will be lost if not backed up on a PC.
I found this out the hard way. You have to re-enter all your separate gun and bullet combos.
Also:
AB will update occasionally and all your data will be lost if not backed up on a PC.
I found this out the hard way. You have to re-enter all your separate gun and bullet combos.
Writing down what you dialed will help you remember your DOPE. The environmental conditions for the day and what you dialed for whatever range is good to have. You can keep track of your round count in there, too. You can build cards off of this data to put in a wrist coach. Better than having to stick your head in some device every time you engage a target at a different distance.
The problem with most data books is there’s a bunch of stuff in there you’ll probably never use. I’m not going to call and plot every single shot, only to never look at it again.
The problem with most data books is there’s a bunch of stuff in there you’ll probably never use. I’m not going to call and plot every single shot, only to never look at it again.
As someone just starting out in this game, I'm writing down every shot and what the powder charge and velocity was( when I chrono).
It helps identify trends and make sense of what's going on, kind of a top down view.
Plus I figure a great selling point if the rifle gets sold.
It helps identify trends and make sense of what's going on, kind of a top down view.
Plus I figure a great selling point if the rifle gets sold.
if you can remember what your devices would tell you when you don't have them, you don't need a databook.
Necessary? No.
When i shot tin cans and pennies as a kid in the ‘70s and early ‘80s, I never wrote a thing down.
After about 2 hours in first school... data book requirement... Pretty much.
One of the definitions of a serious tactical marksman is a data book. If you want to be serious that is.
Remember, if you don’t write it down... it never happened. Words to live by.
Sirhr
When i shot tin cans and pennies as a kid in the ‘70s and early ‘80s, I never wrote a thing down.
After about 2 hours in first school... data book requirement... Pretty much.
One of the definitions of a serious tactical marksman is a data book. If you want to be serious that is.
Remember, if you don’t write it down... it never happened. Words to live by.
Sirhr
And if you have a failing memory like mine... write dat chit down! ! !
Doesn't necessarily have to be a bona fide data book... although they are nice how they are organized. You can use a seperate small Rite in the Rain waterproof booklet for each firearm.
Doesn't necessarily have to be a bona fide data book... although they are nice how they are organized. You can use a seperate small Rite in the Rain waterproof booklet for each firearm.
It's about more than the junk the programs offer. Some of which you'll wanna put in the book.
I started doing it in SDM school and we taught that from day one. You want a book for each weapon. It was the single most effective and inexpensive way to efficiently improve shooting AND to learn specifics about how a particular system works in any given environment. Ie, it helps you learn the weapon (helped us track what they were learning and fix problems). Not a single shot is wasted this way and you get the most out of each shot. I also use it to keep a shot record in the field that I can translate back to the shot record in the shop (that way I don't have to tote around the shot record or risk losing it, which I've done).
Besides keeping track of things like weather and ammo details, you wanna call your shot and make an x for that. Then put a dot where the actual shot went. Or use different colors or whatever. Ideally they'll overlap, and the more you practice (in general and with the particular weapon) the more you'll see that happen.
It lets you track any changes, to the weapon or yourself, ammo, parts, position, whatever, whether they're making it better or worse.
You can buy 'em or you can make 'em. We made ours based on NM score cards I think (I recommend printing them on that green waterproof paper and getting a pen that'll work in the rain, "rite in rain" I think?). We had different pages for 100-600m in 100m increments with the particular target drawn out already, so F, E, A or B. Boxes for things like temp, wind speed and direction at different distances, etc. Without FF barrels, using slings made a difference on the groups and it was nice to know those groups shifted approx. 6MOA left.
When you keep good records it'll let you know EXACTLY what to expect from a weapon and allow you to track your own progress and eliminate bad habits or other issues along the way.
I started doing it in SDM school and we taught that from day one. You want a book for each weapon. It was the single most effective and inexpensive way to efficiently improve shooting AND to learn specifics about how a particular system works in any given environment. Ie, it helps you learn the weapon (helped us track what they were learning and fix problems). Not a single shot is wasted this way and you get the most out of each shot. I also use it to keep a shot record in the field that I can translate back to the shot record in the shop (that way I don't have to tote around the shot record or risk losing it, which I've done).
Besides keeping track of things like weather and ammo details, you wanna call your shot and make an x for that. Then put a dot where the actual shot went. Or use different colors or whatever. Ideally they'll overlap, and the more you practice (in general and with the particular weapon) the more you'll see that happen.
It lets you track any changes, to the weapon or yourself, ammo, parts, position, whatever, whether they're making it better or worse.
You can buy 'em or you can make 'em. We made ours based on NM score cards I think (I recommend printing them on that green waterproof paper and getting a pen that'll work in the rain, "rite in rain" I think?). We had different pages for 100-600m in 100m increments with the particular target drawn out already, so F, E, A or B. Boxes for things like temp, wind speed and direction at different distances, etc. Without FF barrels, using slings made a difference on the groups and it was nice to know those groups shifted approx. 6MOA left.
When you keep good records it'll let you know EXACTLY what to expect from a weapon and allow you to track your own progress and eliminate bad habits or other issues along the way.
So ideally you'll learn all that from keeping the book and then when you do go to make an adjustment you'll know exactly what it'll do, how such and such shooting position will affect the shot, whether you're using a sling and non-FF barrel, etc.
Because for sure these SDM's weren't toting those books on patrol and fucking with that during a fire fight. But at the range? Yeah, every single shot.
I used to think it wouldn’t help but I was wrong.
Very wrong.
It’s great to map out local wind conditions and learn weather trends in various locations to a higher degree.
That tree that moves when you have that weird upswell that cuts a mil or more on needed elevation or unfelt cross wind.
How snow on the ground effect your impacts.
Common location oddities.
Stuff like that is invaluable to document.
Very wrong.
It’s great to map out local wind conditions and learn weather trends in various locations to a higher degree.
That tree that moves when you have that weird upswell that cuts a mil or more on needed elevation or unfelt cross wind.
How snow on the ground effect your impacts.
Common location oddities.
Stuff like that is invaluable to document.
For example this dates back to when we lost Harambe... and we were making sure that we had good dope for all the possible zoo animals that we might come up against.
Always have notes available!
You know who would have loved this post?
Harambe. Harambe would have loved this post!
Sirhr
Always have notes available!
You know who would have loved this post?
Harambe. Harambe would have loved this post!
Sirhr
I can never figure out what to do with all of the various page layouts and page data fields in most data books.
I like this from Rite in Rain. Simple for my simple brain and to the point....oh, and inexpensive
www.riteintherain.com
I like this from Rite in Rain. Simple for my simple brain and to the point....oh, and inexpensive
Rite in the Rain DOPE Logbook, 4 x 6, No. D746
Through rain, sweat, and mud your notes will survive. "Data on Previous Engagements" Form, Universal Pattern, wind calculation, MOA / MRAD conversions.
www.riteintherain.com
Be prepared, check your data book the night before/morning of against expected weather/conditions.
Spoken like a true expert.
Let me go grab one of my old SDM books and I'll get back to you. I think I have one from the sniper team too it was more of an elaborate range card.
A data book is more than keeping records of individual shots. I don’t record each shot but the results of each outing. It is a history of that platform and current barrel. It is most valuable at watching trends develop on that particular system. I use a ballistic app as well but if history is available in the rifle’s book that is part of the preop planning. I would never run a system without knowing its past. Try it and see what you think but don’t get turned off trying to plot each and every shot.
yeah, my databook is my backup along with my mildot master.
having the ballistic charts for a few different factory loads can be useful in guessing at dope if forced to shoot ammo you haven't shot before.
once you have enough data points at various distances to see a consistent delta between the dope from your app and the results downrange, you can reliably make some corrections to your app (if that is an option). lower/raise velocity or bc and see if it trues up.
lastly, if you are often shooting to the limits of your ammo, apps often cannot accurately predict what happens after it goes subsonic or loses stability, so you can only rely on real world results.
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Here is the sniper team dope book and SDM dope book that we issued. The sniper one has more uses and meant to be carried more, shit you can use in the field, the SDM dope book is really meant to be carried only to the range and the references remembered for the field.
I copied every page, there are several duplicates for each page. This is enough for you to copy and make your own on Excel. FM 23-10 has some of these pages but not all of 'em. I'd use the green waterproof paper and appropriate pen for use though, make sure the printer ink you use won't smudge too (should be fine but check anyway).
I copied every page, there are several duplicates for each page. This is enough for you to copy and make your own on Excel. FM 23-10 has some of these pages but not all of 'em. I'd use the green waterproof paper and appropriate pen for use though, make sure the printer ink you use won't smudge too (should be fine but check anyway).
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I know some don't like data books because they say "it doesn't have pages I use or need" and that is true for some premade books but some companies like Impact Data Books allow you to put together your own book with the pages you want in their modular book. They also have round count books which I use on every barrel I own.
If you want to keep it basic, use the shooter’s diary pages from Impact Data Books. Write down your environmental conditions, your actual DOPE at whatever target distance and you’re good. Maybe some notes about wind. Between that and some round count pages, you can retain a lot of data without it being too laborious, in my opinion.
Round count...again, Rite in Rain.....I note in the field and then add count and notes to a spreadsheet.
Very universally useful notebook, IMO
www.riteintherain.com
Very universally useful notebook, IMO
Rite in the Rain Side Spiral Notebook Kit, No. 973-KIT
Stay organized with gear that survives rain, sweat, mud, and the passage of time. All weather kit includes: Metal pen, tan CORDURA® cover, green notebook.
www.riteintherain.com
My databook also still has all my little drafting items... stencils shapes, circle templates, etc. And a little solar calculator that still works great 20 years later! We don't need no 'steenken computers. Old guys rule.the impact databooks also have pages for round counts (of course they have all sorts of options, including ordering only the page designs you want instead of a book with a variety of target pages.
View attachment 7585619
Sirhr
i sort of wish i had gotten the binder type you can build your own, but i may just stick a pencil pouch on it, like the poor that i am.
My credit card sized Radio Shack mity-thin finally crapped out.
"A" databook....?
No you must have "databooks"
I think Im on my 4th or 5th covering a dozen or so rifles.
Certainly helpful when I dig one of those rifles out of the back of the safe that hasnt been out lately and I can go to my last info for last time out.
No you must have "databooks"
I think Im on my 4th or 5th covering a dozen or so rifles.
Certainly helpful when I dig one of those rifles out of the back of the safe that hasnt been out lately and I can go to my last info for last time out.
hahaha, nice.
remember i was forced into this only about 1.5 years ago.
if this ammo crap doesn't iron out, my databook is going to last a long time.
I’ve seen more than a few shooters who’s phone has went down during a match. Broke, battery died, extreme cold weather. Then they have to deal with the pain in the ass of asking a friend to inout all their info into friends ballistic app to try and stay on track. Ma’am’s thing for a hunt. Dope books are free, and they’re easy. Don’t need to make it over complicated but they’re great for going over previous scenarios and situations as well has having hard data written down.
there is also something that happens when you write things down. patterns start to show up and your understanding of balistics gets that much sharper. something about a first round impact based on a quality prediction in a situation youve never shot in.
This is the stuff I 'm talking about. It comes in loose leaf paper for the printer too. It ain't exactly cheap though so don't waste it!Round count...again, Rite in Rain.....I note in the field and then add count and notes to a spreadsheet.
Very universally useful notebook, IMO
Rite in the Rain Side Spiral Notebook Kit, No. 973-KIT
Stay organized with gear that survives rain, sweat, mud, and the passage of time. All weather kit includes: Metal pen, tan CORDURA® cover, green notebook.
View attachment 7585597
Those books I took a picture of, I made those. Well, I made a few hundred actually! I printed off a bunch and they were sheared in half and holes punched. We had (and I guess office stores sell) those metal straps that hold 'em together. Nothing special or fancy and they look storebought, no?
I lost my current ones (PISSED!) during the move --must have been in that box with the 1000 77gr. SMK's I'm missing too!
I lost my current ones (PISSED!) during the move --must have been in that box with the 1000 77gr. SMK's I'm missing too!
Also beyond DOPE, they serve to record round count, cleaning record, chronograph data, reload data, rifle specs, details for head space, jump to lands etc etc etc......
Have a book for each rifle and use them as a record of the "system" versus just dope
Have a book for each rifle and use them as a record of the "system" versus just dope
10-4 Brother. Always have a hardcopy in the event you need to figure out why something is off. In my experience its usually because I rushed the shot.
hahahaha....Personally I find spreadsheets to be the epitome of simple and easy and its convenient to set up running totals, add notes, etc.
To each their own.
Each shooter is different. I use the DOPE book in conjunction with my ballistic app. It simply makes a hard copy for that data later. Like JC stated, writing something down helps the brain remember better. As your DOPE book fills up, you can range the pages in groups or sections based on distance, temp and wind. If I’m ever at a shooting event and let’s say my phone dies, I have a hard copy to get me through the day. I studied different page layouts out there and combined a few that would be pertinent to me at any event and then made my own DOPE book. I also made one for my 13 year old son who is up and coming in the sport.
There was a reason that when you were bad you had to write things over and over by hand. When i got caught stealing as a kid i wrote te ten commandments over and over and over until i thought my hand would fall off, my dad wasnt satisfied until he had like 250 or 300 pages of 10 commandments. To this day i remember every word of every one. I dont buy premade range books. I buy a leatherbound journal for each new rifle. I draw and place shots, map ranges, enter chrono data ect ect. After awhile the info sticks but there is always a need to refresh it after long periods.
A short pencil is better than a long memory, or a dead battery.
“Certainly helpful when I dig one of those rifles out of the back of the safe that hasnt been out lately and I can go to my last info for last time out.”
This. I didn’t use them for a short time, but then quickly realized the value. After a while having different rifles, calibers, etc a data book for each rifle became necessary. Now, when a specific rifle comes out its data book comes out with it.
This. I didn’t use them for a short time, but then quickly realized the value. After a while having different rifles, calibers, etc a data book for each rifle became necessary. Now, when a specific rifle comes out its data book comes out with it.
