Rifle Scopes Is FFP useful on 1-4X or 1-6X scope?

#2
Re: Is FFP useful on 1-4X or 1-6X scope?

Maybe on the 1-6. But it really depends on what you are mounting it on and what your use is. I compared a 1-4 FFP versus a SFP for my duty carbine. For me the reticle was too small on the FFP to be really useful.

Maybe if you have better eyes than I do or are shooting from a stable platform at longer ranges FFP might be useful.
 
#4
Re: Is FFP useful on 1-4X or 1-6X scope?

I used a S&B 1.1-4 short dot for a while that was FFP the thing I liked about that is the reticle was great but it also had a very bright red dot making it similar to an aimpoint at 1x but you still had the advantages of the FFP i.e. holds being accurate througout the range of zoom. But as was stated it depends on your intended use.
 
#5
Re: Is FFP useful on 1-4X or 1-6X scope?

I think S&B hit the mark on how to make the 1-4 type scopes with their shortdot. The reticle is fine enough that on 1X the bright red dot turns the scope into an aimpoint type optic, then you can turn it up to 4x and the reticle is thick enough to use the mil hashes. I hate their moa based turrets on the shortdot though, other than that its a pretty nice little scope.
 
#6
Re: Is FFP useful on 1-4X or 1-6X scope?

I guess it also depends on the reticle design. I have a Weaver 3-15FFP, the EMBR reticle line is very thin. It only gets useful for me around 8X to 10X or higher power.
 
#7
Re: Is FFP useful on 1-4X or 1-6X scope?

I agree on the reticle design and also what Bward and B3 said. I use a Short Dot as well and like the way it works in FFP. I can easily make hits out to 400 yards with hold overs using the reticle at 4x. But for close range i dial to 1x and use it like a red dot.

Here's a couple old pics I had. Not very good but give you the idea
1x
P3150520.jpg

4x
P3150519.jpg
 
#8
Re: Is FFP useful on 1-4X or 1-6X scope?

The reticle design on the new SS 1-6 FFP is spot on imo. At 6x the circle dissapears and mil based reticle looks pretty good and functional. This is only from through the scope pics on prototypes as the scope isn't out yet.

I think the USO DFP models are a great addition to this niche. Functional, Effective, and best of both options.
 
#9
Re: Is FFP useful on 1-4X or 1-6X scope?

FFP reticles are too small for my old eyes at the lower powers.
The new Vortex 1-6 is going to be a SFP.
I would be interested in seeing the new SS if these new models are as good as some on here are saying.
 
#10
Re: Is FFP useful on 1-4X or 1-6X scope?

I didn't know the Vortex Razor 1-6X Gen II is SFP. I think this is a good move.

In terms of optics, I'd rather have a more forgiving eye box than FFP on 1-4X or 1-6X scopes.
 
#11
Re: Is FFP useful on 1-4X or 1-6X scope?

If the reticle is designed properly, FFP is better for any magnification range. Reticle design is the key. A badly designed reticle in an SFP scope is just as unusable as a badly designed one in an FFP scope. FFP scopes are still new to many manufacturers...

It isn't just about the mil hashes on the reticle, it's about the other aiming features too. One of my biggest peeves about the Vortex 1-4x is that the center dot covers too much of the target at 1x. Remember that on an FFP scope, the reticle is only changing size wrt your eye when you change magnification. On SFP, is changing size wrt the target. The center dot on the new 1-6.5x Bushnell FFP is still visible at 1x with the magnification at 1x as a precision aiming point, and you still have the outer ring if you want speed.

I would never buy an SFP scope for anything but a stopgap till a properly designed FFP scope was available.
 
#13
Re: Is FFP useful on 1-4X or 1-6X scope?

IMHO, no FFP is not any more useful on low powered optics.

Folks say "but you can use holdovers and range at any power", well, with those low powered optics, you're going to turn it up all the way anyway.

I do, however, like the way they have attacked the problem, a red dot or circle at 1x that turns into crosshairs, but I really believe it becomes a 1 or 4 x optic. Not much use in between, the dot has gotten larger but the crosshairs are barely visable.
 
#14
Re: Is FFP useful on 1-4X or 1-6X scope?

The key is reticle size change w.r.t. zoom in FFP. This allows reticle design that is functional at both 1X and max power. In SPF, reticle size is fixed, thus compromise must be made in order to be useful at both zoom power.
 
#15
Re: Is FFP useful on 1-4X or 1-6X scope?

For the most part I'm not a fan of 1-4x FFP because their reticles tend to be too small at 1x. There are a few FFP 1-4x out there that have usable reticles at 1x, such as USO Dual RET. and Vortex HD. If you have a RET. that has daytime bright illumination it is not such a big deal unless the battery dies. I prefer SFP 1-4x scope. I really like the Vortex PST, MeOpta ZD (feel it gets over look a lot), IOR 1.1-4x, NF 1-4x, Trijicon TR24, and my favorite ELCAN Specter DR.

As for the 1-6x there are a few really nice ones and a few coming to the market. Bushnell has two great reticles that works really well in FFP and they have daytime bright illumination. Vortex has a really nice one on it way, and the Leupold Mark 6 1-6x looks very promising also.

Swarovski Z6 1-6x with the BRH-I is SFP but it is a smoke hot scope!

There are a lot of good options out there, if we can be of help feel free to ask.

Mike @ CST
 
#16
Re: Is FFP useful on 1-4X or 1-6X scope?

To add to what a few have said:

Reticle design makes all the difference. In most cases I think a SFP reticle is preferable, as an FFP reticle would either be too course at 4x or to fine at 1x, besides, your unlikely to need mil references at 1x.

Some scopes get it right with the FFP though. The SWFA SS 1-4 is the first that comes to mind. At 1x you have a heavy ring with fine crosshairs that is very quick, at 4x you ignore the ring, and have a useable mil reticle. I haven't seen the new 1-6 in person, but from looking at pictures in other threads, it looks like they have refined that concept, and taken advantage of the extra magnification to move the ring completely out of the picture at 6x.
 
#17
Re: Is FFP useful on 1-4X or 1-6X scope?

If the SS 1-6x was a 2nd focal plane I would have ordered it by now with that good package deal. I don't like the Vortex 1-4x as a ffp, so I'm hesitant to jump onto the SS deal. I know the reticle pics look like it would be OK, but I'm still unsure. I want it for a multigun rifle, so the FFP means jack to me as I would hold any corrections on the fly anyway.
 
#18
Re: Is FFP useful on 1-4X or 1-6X scope?

Don't think of it in the normal sense of a reticle that gets bigger and smaller (like the Vortex). Think of it as two separate reticles, a circle-dot (or rather a circle-cross) at 1x, and a normal mil-crosshair at 4x (or 6x). The reticle is coarse at 4x, but I haven't found that to be an issue.
 
#19
Re: Is FFP useful on 1-4X or 1-6X scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mumbles</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To add to what a few have said:

Reticle design makes all the difference. In most cases I think a SFP reticle is preferable, as an FFP reticle would either be too course at 4x or to fine at 1x, besides, your unlikely to need mil references at 1x.

Some scopes get it right with the FFP though. The SWFA SS 1-4 is the first that comes to mind. At 1x you have a heavy ring with fine crosshairs that is very quick, at 4x you ignore the ring, and have a useable mil reticle. I haven't seen the new 1-6 in person, but from looking at pictures in other threads, it looks like they have refined that concept, and taken advantage of the extra magnification to move the ring completely out of the picture at 6x. </div></div>

have you seen the swfa ss 1-6x24 at 2x through 5x yet?

i think creating a perfect FFP reticle in a low variable that's great at 1x,great at the highest mag AND is not cluttered in-between is more difficult than most people think. of the NEWER scopes,about the closest i've noticed so far,is the new FFP bushnell 1-6.5 and even that is not perfect,again,because of the challenge of it being FFP(they have it in SFP too,2 reticles,4 scopes in all). i also won't believe this bushnell is true-bright-daylight-visible illumination,as someone else mentioned here,until i have proof(it is certain technologies that makes this truely happen and these bushnells have not specified they have it).
 
#20
Re: Is FFP useful on 1-4X or 1-6X scope?

No, all I've seen of the SS 1-6 are the pictures I've seen posted here. I've had a 1-4 ever since they came out though and I don't think I could tell you what it looks like at 2-3x. Same with my Leupold MR/T 1.5-5. Not sure why you would ever need to use an intermediate power on a scope with a range as small as that. With 5-25s and such yeah, but on a 1-6? Strikes me as nit-picking.
 
#21
Re: Is FFP useful on 1-4X or 1-6X scope?

that's fair enough,there's no right or wrong really,just preferences. however,there are times when i want/need a little more mag but also need the wider FOV that the intermediate mag ranges give compared to the highest mag,so the intermediate is definately useful to me.
 
#22
Re: Is FFP useful on 1-4X or 1-6X scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Folks say "but you can use holdovers and range at any power", well, with those low powered optics, you're going to turn it up all the way anyway</div></div>

Yes, but you're also never going to try and use the reticle for holdovers when its not on the right magnification setting because that isn't possible. Its easy to do that with an SFP scope when you're under stress or in a hurry make a shot (especially once you've gotten used to using FFP scopes). A lot of guys end up getting rid of the rest of their SFP scopes after they've gotten used to FFP because of this.
 
#24
Re: Is FFP useful on 1-4X or 1-6X scope?

Looks interesting. Keep in mind it is a 1.5, not a true 1x. The difference between 1x and "almost 1x" is night and day in my opinion. Even 1.1x makes a major difference to me. Not that there's anything wrong with "almost 1x", I just don't prefer it.
 
#25
Re: Is FFP useful on 1-4X or 1-6X scope?



there are european scopes that are 1.1-4 that are actually true 1x. it has to do with the precise why they calculate it. in other words,if it were an american company,they would simply call it a 1-4.
 
#26
Re: Is FFP useful on 1-4X or 1-6X scope?

Yeah typo on my part. I meant 1.5x not 1x. I've read people think the center dot which I think is 2.5MOA is too big for precision shooting.
 
#27
Re: Is FFP useful on 1-4X or 1-6X scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wyoung</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know this is more of a hunting scope but what do you think about the Weaver Super Slam Euro 1.5-6x24?
I'd like to see the reticle on 1x.

http://www.weaveroptics.com/optics/riflescopes/superslam_euro/

</div></div>

i am willing to bet any amount of money that on 1.5x i would find the german #4 reticle too thin to be really useful for me. do a review search for the weaver tactical 1-5x24,there are pictures of it on 1x and i find it's reticle too thin also. both are FFP,which is probably the most common "problem" with FFP reticles,especially with low variables for CQB use. also,for UNDER $200 more you could get a sightron 1-7x24(if you know how to shop) which also has a german #4 but in SFP and VERY useful at 1x. it's also optically superior being a true 1x through 7x. that's a 7x erector(1-7) with more lenses compared to a 4x erector(1.5-6).

then again,everyone is different,maybe you would like it. it's a shame because i like some of weavers other scopes,especially their tactical line. they represent some of the best value with quality out there. the higher end weavers are hard to beat for value,then again,sightron is the other value leader on their top scopes.
 
#28
Re: Is FFP useful on 1-4X or 1-6X scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: priler</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wyoung</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know this is more of a hunting scope but what do you think about the Weaver Super Slam Euro 1.5-6x24?
I'd like to see the reticle on 1x.

http://www.weaveroptics.com/optics/riflescopes/superslam_euro/

</div></div>

i am willing to bet any amount of money that on 1.5x i would find the german #4 reticle too thin to be really useful for me. do a review search for the weaver tactical 1-5x24,there are pictures of it on 1x and i find it's reticle too thin also. both are FFP,which is probably the most common "problem" with FFP reticles,especially with low variables for CQB use. also,for UNDER $200 more you could get a sightron 1-7x24(if you know how to shop) which also has a german #4 but in SFP and VERY useful at 1x. it's also optically superior being a true 1x through 7x. that's a 7x erector(1-7) with more lenses compared to a 4x erector(1.5-6).

then again,everyone is different,maybe you would like it. it's a shame because i like some of weavers other scopes,especially their tactical line. they represent some of the best value with quality out there. the higher end weavers are hard to beat for value,then again,sightron is the other value leader on their top scopes. </div></div>

I hear you. I think too many scope manufacturers are trying to bring out products that will "do it all" when IMO really it's hard to find a scope under $1000 that will work short and long distance, especially FFP. I'd rather have a scope that does one or the other well than a scope that fails at either or both.

You're right about the Weaver tactical line. I've yet to handle one but based on the reviews and features they seem to be a huge value. I just wish they would tell me the weight of the new 2-10x36 that hasn't been released. That's the only negative thing I can say about them is they're heavy. I'm expecting it not to come in under 20oz. when I can get a much lighter Vortex for less.
 
#29
Re: Is FFP useful on 1-4X or 1-6X scope?

I dare say that FFP reticles are even more helpful on a scope with a smaller magnification range because you're less likely to hear the complaint that the reticles are too small and fine at the lower end of the power range or too thick at the top (assuming the reticle was properly designed for the magnification range it's intended to serve).
 
#30
Re: Is FFP useful on 1-4X or 1-6X scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mute</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I dare say that FFP reticles are even more helpful on a scope with a smaller magnification range because you're less likely to hear the complaint that the reticles are too small and fine at the lower end of the power range or too thick at the top (assuming the reticle was properly designed for the magnification range it's intended to serve). </div></div>

No doubt. I think SWFA has this nailed with the new 1-6 coming soon.
 
#31
Re: Is FFP useful on 1-4X or 1-6X scope?

I find FFP on a low mag optic to be pretty useful.
Both of these points have been mentioned, but I really like the "two in one" ability, that you can have a reflex, close range reticle, with a precision reticle inside of it.
Also, for me at least, being able to use the same holdover regardless of magnification is useful.
In the matches I occasionally shoot with my AR, I can be switching between targets inside of 25 yards, to out pretty far. If I only have to worry about my mag setting with respect to being able to actually find and see the targets, it's just one less thing to worry about.
 
#32
Re: Is FFP useful on 1-4X or 1-6X scope?

One note on "in between powers." I agree with others that 1-4's are virtually always used on 1X or 4X, but for the 1-6's I think people will find themselves using the in-between powers from time to time. There are many situations where you're not literally at door-kicking distances where there's no need for 1X to be fast enough and yet 6X is way too much. Setting the scope on 3X or so and forgetting about it is a nice option to have. I can't speak for all the others, but the SS reticle works very well for that.
 
#33
Re: Is FFP useful on 1-4X or 1-6X scope?

I won't debate the merits on FFP or SFP as it applies to the scopes in question, but I can tell you this, using the FFP Bushnell 1-6.5x as an example, that scope is a lead balloon. We can't give them away...and I know I'm not alone. So when decisions are made on what to carry down the road, that scope goes to the bottom of the list. Customers voting with $$ trumps all.

Scott
 
#34
Re: Is FFP useful on 1-4X or 1-6X scope?

I really like my Bushnell FFP 1-6.5. Great reticule. At low power, its a red dot. At high power, I can hold 5 mils and take a shot. Very nice. Bushnell just has a hard name to compete with with you get into those high dollar scopes. Its doesn't have the pedigree, but they are making nice scopes these days. And I really like my 1-6.5. I hate the idea of any 1-4 scope. But when you get 6.5, now your talking.
 
#35
Re: Is FFP useful on 1-4X or 1-6X scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LibertyOptics</div><div class="ubbcode-body">using the FFP Bushnell 1-6.5x as an example, that scope is a lead balloon. We can't give them away...

Scott</div></div>

Psssh, I gladly take one.
wink.gif


What they did is right up my alley. Basically a red dot on 1X, because I don't like halos and circles and horseshoes and all that as much as a dot which is just easier for me to plant where I want it and shoot away versus having to center up a target in a halo or what have you (I've always preferred Aimpoints to EoTechs for that reason). Then, got the mil for holds out past 300yards.

For reference, been using the SWFA 1-4x for a little over the past year, and it is a great scope, but really don't like that halo on 1X.

Just searching for the right replacement for it........and if I had the money available, I'd give the Bushnell a shot, although I'd love to see it first.....
 
#36
Re: Is FFP useful on 1-4X or 1-6X scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AustinWolv</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
What they did is right up my alley. Basically a red dot on 1X, because I don't like halos and circles and horseshoes and all that</div></div>

I just looked up the Bushnell 1-6.5x to see what we were talking about and I can't find any that don't have a halo.
 
#37
Re: Is FFP useful on 1-4X or 1-6X scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bedlam</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AustinWolv</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
What they did is right up my alley. Basically a red dot on 1X, because I don't like halos and circles and horseshoes and all that</div></div>

I just looked up the Bushnell 1-6.5x to see what we were talking about and I can't find any that don't have a halo.</div></div>

The FFP on 1X looks like a dot, since the halo is very small.
Check out the pics:
http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=148986
 
#38
Re: Is FFP useful on 1-4X or 1-6X scope?

USO 1.5-6 with their new dual focal plane C2 is on my coyote/SPR. The debate is gone in my mind-the circle stays the same size (SFP) while the mil crosshairs stay FFP.
Couldn't be happier!

Pictures from another member:
uso1x.jpg

uso4x.jpg
 
#39
Re: Is FFP useful on 1-4X or 1-6X scope?

sobr, the USO stuff has been interesting for that reason, especially their new 1-8x coming out that is intriguing.

Just depends on the reticule...
 
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