Is it just me or is my load just not right?

[Oppenheimer]

So heres what I got. At 100 and 200 yards I'm shooting 1/8 MOA groups. At 300 I'm shooting I am shooting 1/4 to 1/3 MOA. At 500 yards I'm holding a 1/2 to 2/3 MOA groups. At 800 yards I open way up to 1 1/2 to 2 MOA sized groups. I know my twist ratio is not optimized for my bullet but they fly so well up close. Since the loss of velocity is pretty significant at 800 am I losing to much stabilization therefore accuracy? And if I was to find another node with a higher velocity would that help with keeping sub MOA groups that far out? I know I'm still super sonic at 800 with my current load but something doesnt seem quite right. Or is it all just me Any advice would help. Thank you!

 

[flounderv2]

I dont think the real Oppenheimer would have to ask this question. But since you have. If you are getting groups like that at 100-300, then I would say its you, weather, or load at distance. The rifle, caliber, and load details, are crucial to helping answer this.

 

[ChrisGarrett]

So heres what I got. At 100 and 200 yards I'm shooting 1/8 MOA groups. At 300 I'm shooting I am shooting 1/4 to 1/3 MOA. At 500 yards I'm holding a 1/2 to 2/3 MOA groups. At 800 yards I open way up to 1 1/2 to 2 MOA sized groups. I know my twist ratio is not optimized for my bullet but they fly so well up close. Since the loss of velocity is pretty significant at 800 am I losing to much stabilization therefore accuracy? And if I was to find another node with a higher velocity would that help with keeping sub MOA groups that far out? I know I'm still super sonic at 800 with my current load but something doesnt seem quite right. Or is it all just me Any advice would help. Thank you!

What are you shooting?

Pictures?

One shot groups don't count.

Chris

 

[Jig Stick]

Caliber? Handloads? Recipe? Supported? Prone or sitting? Too many variables. Give more details.

 

[Oppenheimer]

Remington 700 26" 1:12 twist JP Enterprises Tac Brake trigger set at 1.75lbs Bell and Carlson Medalist A2 Nightforce 20 MOA rail Leupold Mark 4 steel lapped 30mm rings EGW beveled bolt knob extender Vortex Viper PST 6-24x50 MOA/MOA Blackhawk cheekpad Claw sling Rock Mount Bi-pod Winchester brass CCI Primers caliber .308 178gr. Hornady Amax 41.7grs Varget. ALL of my groups are 5 shot. I have been shooting off of bags lately.

 

[Oppenheimer]

Oh and muzzle velocity is 2512fps. THANKS!

 

[justinbaker]

your probably going sub sonic, that is a pretty light load of varget. like 3 grains low. i was loading 44.6 varget with 178's

 

[timelinex]

So your saying that you consistently get 5 shot groups that measure .125" at 100 yards or are you talking about that being your best group?

You will get better help here if people take you seriously, and you will not be taken seriously when throwing out claims like that.

Anyways, it is most likely environmental conditions causing your deterioration in accuracy. Might be something like trigger finger, but hard to predict...

 

[buffybuster]

I won't comment on your shortrange groups. However regarding your groups opening up at long range; probably due to your relatively low muzzle velocity. At long range the bullet has lost enough velocity it is in the transonic zone.

 

[Oppenheimer]

So your saying that you consistently get 5 shot groups that measure .125" at 100 yards or are you talking about that being your best group?

You will get better help here if people take you seriously, and you will not be taken seriously when throwing out claims like that.

Anyways, it is most likely environmental conditions causing your deterioration in accuracy. Might be something like trigger finger, but hard to predict...

I do not simply throw out claims. If you dont want to take me seriously I could care less. I did not post this question to impress you or anyone else here. I posted because I have a legitimate question and I need help. I grew up with a rifle in hand and though I thoroughly understand that does not make everybody a good shot I feel extremely confident about how I shoot. If an average of 6 out of 10 times is consistent enough for you then great. My best group measured .337 outside to outside at 200. I do not wish to make waves with anyone here. This site has been extremely helpful and I have picked up a lot of tips. About all I can do is give you my word as a red blooded American country boy that loves his wife and dog almost as much as his rifle. Thank you.

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Oh and muzzle velocity is 2512fps. THANKS!

With a 26" tube, 2515 fps with a 178gr bullet is pretty slow.

With a 26" tube, I'd be looking at 2675-2725+ fps, unless your bore is pretty loose.

You need to find that next (higher) velocity node.

Chris

 

[Oppenheimer]

With a 26" tube, 2515 fps with a 178gr bullet is pretty slow.

With a 26" tube, I'd be looking at 2675-2725+ fps, unless your bore is pretty loose.

You need to find that next (higher) velocity node.

Chris

I have only sent approximately 900 rounds through this one so bore shouldnt be loose. Should I search for next node in .3 or .5 grain increments?

 

[0311@LAR]

Yea you're probably going sub sonic. Y ou should probably be up aroundd 44 grains with the 178 amax. I shoot the same bullets and my load is 44.5 grains Varget and Lapua brass. Put me right around 2750 FPS.

 

[Darkphantom]

For the guys running the 44-45grains of Varget, what do your primers look like? I was getting fairly flattened primers at 45grs and was worried about pressure signs?

 

[280nosler]

For the guys running the 44-45grains of Varget, what do your primers look like? I was getting fairly flattened primers at 45grs and was worried about pressure signs?

I was running 44.7 using 168 gr A-max's originally, and now 168 grain SMK's without issue, and practically perfect primer. We're you using 308 brass or 7.62 brass?

 

[Darkphantom]

Using fireformed lapua 308 brass

 

[Boomholzer]

A 178 AMAX at 2512fps should'nt be hitting transonic before or at 800yrds.

Winter in the UP? Cold air decreases the speed of sound. You should still have about ~1200fps at 800yrds.

Also, rotational stability is more required with forward velocity. Bullet velocity is also shed at a faster rate than rotational. The stability of a bullet actually increases over flight (while super-sonic).

If stability was a issue (sans going transonic), you would see it up close. If in question, try a firm target board. I have no issues with the same bullet in a 1:12 nor I have ever heard of anyone else.

I think the answers to your questions reside elsewhere.

 

[280nosler]

A 178 AMAX at 2512fps should'nt be hitting transonic before or at 800yrds.

Winter in the UP? Cold air decreases the speed of sound. You should still have about ~1200fps at 800yrds.

Also, rotational stability is more required with forward velocity. Bullet velocity is also shed at a faster rate than rotational. The stability of a bullet actually increases over flight (while super-sonic).

If stability was a issue (sans going transonic), you would see it up close. If in question, try a firm target board. I have no issues with the same bullet in a 1:12 nor I have ever heard of anyone else.

I think the answers to your questions reside elsewhere.

I think you are right. At 2512 fps with a 178 grain A-max with a G1 BC of .495, that bullet should be sonic at 800 yards to the tune of 1269fps based on my calculations estimating 500 ft above sea level and 50 degrees. I am honestly a bit confused about this puzzle. My guess would be optics at a distance, but the OP could push the powder to about 43.5 grains and step velocity up to the 2625 level without pressure becoming a factor.

 

[Boomholzer]

I think you are right. At 2512 fps with a 178 grain A-max with a G1 BC of .495, that bullet should be sonic at 800 yards to the tune of 1269fps based on my calculations estimating 500 ft above sea level and 50 degrees. I am honestly a bit confused about this puzzle. My guess would be optics at a distance, but the OP could push the powder to about 43.5 grains and step velocity up to the 2625 level without pressure becoming a factor.

I don't under estimate 800yards. A 1mph cross wind is .75-1MOA in itself. .1 per 100 estimate. Not much talk on corrections. Holding same POI it does not take much wind change to open a additional 1MOA. Geez

At 800 yards I open way up to 1 1/2 to 2 MOA sized groups

 

[Tactical]

Brother, its the weather/wind/mirage and such added together. The load is probably fine for 800. Check you velocity from round to round. I look for under 10fps spread between in a ten round string. If velocity changes/varies more than that you get up and down

Holding better than 1 moa is very hard past 800 yards. In F TR World Championships only a few hit the 1 moa ring all fifteen times at 800 yards and to my best knowledge only one has ever hit the 1 moa ring all twenty times at 1000 yards. Of course this is in competition with lots of pressure and witnesses.

 

[bodywerks]

And likely not a factory Remington rifle or 308 round either...
Pics of the 1/8moa groups from a factory Remington or it didn't happen ;-)

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[1lnbrdg]

Brother, its the weather/wind/mirage and such added together. The load is probably fine for 800. Check you velocity from round to round. I look for under 10fps spread between in a ten round string. If velocity changes/varies more than that you get up and down

Holding better than 1 moa is very hard past 800 yards. In F TR World Championships only a few hit the 1 moa ring all fifteen times at 800 yards and to my best knowledge only one has ever hit the 1 moa ring all twenty times at 1000 yards. Of course this is in competition with lots of pressure and witnesses.

I saw a 150-16X shot at Houston a couple of weeks ago.

 

[jfields]

I load the 178 AMAX with 45 grains of Varget in Winchester brass and get 2635 fps out of a 10 twist 20" Krieger. I think it is important to use Winchester brass if you are going to load over 44 grains of Varget. They seem to have more case capacity. Primers are not perfectly round, but not too flat.

-Shaky

 

[Ballistic Artist]

So heres what I got. At 100 and 200 yards I'm shooting 1/8 MOA groups. At 300 I'm shooting I am shooting 1/4 to 1/3 MOA. At 500 yards I'm holding a 1/2 to 2/3 MOA groups. At 800 yards I open way up to 1 1/2 to 2 MOA sized groups. I know my twist ratio is not optimized for my bullet but they fly so well up close. Since the loss of velocity is pretty significant at 800 am I losing to much stabilization therefore accuracy? And if I was to find another node with a higher velocity would that help with keeping sub MOA groups that far out? I know I'm still super sonic at 800 with my current load but something doesnt seem quite right. Or is it all just me Any advice would help. Thank you!

1/8" group at 200 yards? Is this a Factory barrel? Factory action or trued?? This has got to be getting close to breaking records??

 

[Oppenheimer]

Brother, its the weather/wind/mirage and such added together. The load is probably fine for 800. Check you velocity from round to round. I look for under 10fps spread between in a ten round string. If velocity changes/varies more than that you get up and down

Holding better than 1 moa is very hard past 800 yards. In F TR World Championships only a few hit the 1 moa ring all fifteen times at 800 yards and to my best knowledge only one has ever hit the 1 moa ring all twenty times at 1000 yards. Of course this is in competition with lots of pressure and witnesses.

I will definitely try to get within 10 fps. Where I shoot the wind is usually at my 6 or at 12. Its on a powerline in between a valley of trees and I do have windage flags set every 200 yards apart in case of shift. Mirage wasnt bad since it was only 23 degrees out. But the problem could be it was only 23 degrees out !

 

[Oppenheimer]

1/8" group at 200 yards? Is this a Factory barrel? Factory action or trued?? This has got to be getting close to breaking records??

Since I posted this question I have come to realize how much s*** I've kicked up. I guess I thought at my shorter ranges those type of groups were normal with handloads. Im newer to the hide so I guess people have every right to question me. I shoot with a awesome group of guys here. Anywhere from ex boomer engineer ex carrier helo pilot to ex army airborne ranger ex marines all who can verify what I say. I would trust my life to any of these guys and they have helped me tremendously hone my shooting. Im simple nobody that has been behind a rifle since age 4. I dont follow competition shooting that much and am not fimiliar with a lot of the rules and shot group records. I have watched the snipershide competition on YouTube and thought that looked like a blast. I know I wouldnt stand a snowflakes chance in hell against any of them. To answer your questions yes it is a factory remington action and yes it is a factory remington barrel. If it comes to being ignored because no one wants to believe me or posting a video so I can keep getting help from the Hide I guess Ill have to post the video. Give me some time and Ill make a compilation. I have never thought of filming myself shooting so I will begin as soon as this damn snow clears. Ill get pics up of my rifle as soon as I can figure out how.

 

[Ballistic Artist]

Since I posted this question I have come to realize how much s*** I've kicked up. I guess I thought at my shorter ranges those type of groups were normal with handloads. Im newer to the hide so I guess people have every right to question me. I shoot with a awesome group of guys here. Anywhere from ex boomer engineer ex carrier helo pilot to ex army airborne ranger ex marines all who can verify what I say. I would trust my life to any of these guys and they have helped me tremendously hone my shooting. Im simple nobody that has been behind a rifle since age 4. I dont follow competition shooting that much and am not fimiliar with a lot of the rules and shot group records. I have watched the snipershide competition on YouTube and thought that looked like a blast. I know I wouldnt stand a snowflakes chance in hell against any of them. To answer your questions yes it is a factory remington action and yes it is a factory remington barrel. If it comes to being ignored because no one wants to believe me or posting a video so I can keep getting help from the Hide I guess Ill have to post the video. Give me some time and Ill make a compilation. I have never thought of filming myself shooting so I will begin as soon as this damn snow clears. Ill get pics up of my rifle as soon as I can figure out how.

Hey now hold up, Im not trying to call you a liar, Im just saying that thats quite impressive for a factory rifle. It would be kinda neat to see pics of your rifle and groups, not so I "believe" you, but because you have some serious bragging rights to throw at everyone. Remingtons are quite accurate out of the box but damn, 1/8" group at 200??. Thats a damn good group at 100 yards. AT 200 yards, thats awesome. Is your 700 a police model or a vtac? Remington has so many different tactical style 700's now I cant even guess which one yours would be. Ive been thinking of building up a 308 on another remmy action but hell, with their factory stuff shooting this good, I dont know if its worth building one.

 

[bodywerks]

Best group i ever got out of a factory gun is .19"@100yd, 5 shots, and it only happened once.

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[CAG55]

Oppenheimer,
Here you are, very low amount of posts just me.and you threw out numbers that a lot of people can't do or maybe can't afford the
tools it takes to shoot like that.You are not going to go to Bass Pro and buy a Rem 700 in 308 put a Vortex scope on it and go home do some reloading go to the range and shoot groups like that.I have a couple of rifles that can shoot those 100-200 yards group's and (maybe) with a real good shooter, but not me. Some pic's of the targets would of got you a bunch of good advice.Been a long time since I posted a picture on here, I think you have to host them on photo bucket and then do a copy and paste (I think) I wished that I could help, but i can't.
Greg

 

[bodywerks]

Oppenheimer,
Here you are, very low amount of posts just me.and you threw out numbers that a lot of people can't do or maybe can't afford the
tools it takes to shoot like that.You are not going to go to Bass Pro and buy a Rem 700 in 308 put a Vortex scope on it and go home do some reloading go to the range and shoot groups like that.I have a couple of rifles that can shoot those 100-200 yards group's and (maybe) with a real good shooter, but not me. Some pic's of the targets would of got you a bunch of good advice.Been a long time since I posted a picture on here, I think you have to host them on photo bucket and then do a copy and paste (I think) I wished that I could help, but i can't.
Greg

Not anymore. If you have it on your phone or computer you just go to the full reply window and there's a place to attach it.

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[Fuzzball]

Well, if you routinely shoot with ex-marines, rangers, etc, and routinely shoot 1/8th MOA, sometimes off sandbags, with common mass produced bullets out of a factory 700 in .308 you're wasting time at a local range, you should be shooting factory class matches and blowing everyone else away. And, after you burn out your present barrel in .308, get it re-barreled with a hand lapped Shilen, Hart, Kreiger, etc, and get your groups cut in half; then you could beat those pikers in NBRSA with their $4,000 6 PPC rigs and fixed power target scopes, easily.

But if your rig is as good as you say the "problem" must be you or which way the ducks are flying, not your tools.

 

[Oppenheimer]

Well, if you routinely shoot with ex-marines, rangers, etc, and routinely shoot 1/8th MOA, sometimes off sandbags, with common mass produced bullets out of a factory 700 in .308 you're wasting time at a local range, you should be shooting factory class matches and blowing everyone else away. And, after you burn out your present barrel in .308, get it re-barreled with a hand lapped Shilen, Hart, Kreiger, etc, and get your groups cut in half; then you could beat those pikers in NBRSA with their $4,000 6 PPC rigs and fixed power target scopes, easily.

But if your rig is as good as you say the "problem" must be you or which way the ducks are flying, not your tools.

I cant afford to go to matches and there is nothing that close to where I live. It took me two years to buy everything I am using on this gun. When I first started looking at setting up a target gun I looked at the very basic necessities that had a awesome or decent name behind them and saved up and bought them piece by piece. I pretty much lurked this sight for a really long time to figure out what to get that was in my price range. I know I have quite a few more rounds to put through her before the barrel is done but Im already starting to save up for a Broughton 5c. Some of the guys I shoot with want to do a road trip down to Camp Grayling this summer and just watch one of the matches they do there. Thats about as close to a match that Ill probably ever get

 

[Tactical]

I saw a 150-16X shot at Houston a couple of weeks ago.

Well on fifteen shot course sixteen x is real hard to do, since you have an extra X. On 20 shot course 150 with 16X is still hard to do, since it would be 160 minimum score with 16 X

I just reported what I saw during the Worlds as a competitor and as a member of the US F TR Team since 2008.

 

[Tactical]

Opp, measure extreme edge to edge, to where paper tears stop/black marks. Then subtract the diameter of the bullet. That will give you the group size.

The groups you have are far better than what folks normally see. Old Remingtons would usually do .50 moa if bedded and .75 moa if unbedded. The newer ones tend to be looser. You obviously have a screamer

 

[Oppenheimer]

Opp, measure extreme edge to edge, to where paper tears stop/black marks. Then subtract the diameter of the bullet. That will give you the group size.

The groups you have are far better than what folks normally see. Old Remingtons would usually do .50 moa if bedded and .75 moa if unbedded. The newer ones tend to be looser. You obviously have a screamer

Next time I go out I will take pics and video with my camera. I dont have a desktop or a laptop just a kindle fire hd and I dont know how to do pics with it yet. I have been measuring from the absolute outside edge of the black marks and subtracting my diameter. I really didnt mean to step on anyones toes about all this. I didnt realize that it was uncommon or anything. I just saw deterioration in accuracy at longer ranges and I wasnt sure why. Im sorry to everyone that I pissed off or whatever. I just like to shoot.

 

[Tactical]

Opp, no problem with me brother. Just report what you see and folks can believe or not. Let me know if I can help with anything

 

[Aimsmall55]

Lol. 1/8 moa. I didn't know that even existed. Welcome to Snipers Hide .... Careful not to step in the bull shit

 

[Down South]

Well on fifteen shot course sixteen x is real hard to do, since you have an extra X. On 20 shot course 150 with 16X is still hard to do, since it would be 160 minimum score with 16 X

I just reported what I saw during the Worlds as a competitor and as a member of the US F TR Team since 2008.

I was there also, it was the Texas Long Range Championships a few weeks ago. Ben Milam (could be spelled wrong) set a new national record in F-Open. He shot a 150 15X for score and then shot another shot and his 16th shot was an X also thats why it was 16X. This was done at 800 yards, I was on the line when he did it. It was not dead calm either, wind was blowing. GREAT shooting by a great guy, congrats to Ben.

 

[QuietShootr]

I don't know. I use 45.9 of Varget in Lapua brass with the 178 HPBT and have no problems. I wouldn't want to go any hotter, but this doesn't show pressure signs, and my brass is still fine after 5 loadings. Only way to know if it will work in your gun is to try it.

I load the 178 AMAX with 45 grains of Varget in Winchester brass and get 2635 fps out of a 10 twist 20" Krieger. I think it is important to use Winchester brass if you are going to load over 44 grains of Varget. They seem to have more case capacity. Primers are not perfectly round, but not too flat.

-Shaky

 

[Tactical]

Apples and Oranges. F Open versus F TR.

This thread is about 308 which is F TR not F Open.


F Open perfects happen.
F Open has nothing to do with this thread

I was there also, it was the Texas Long Range Championships a few weeks ago. Ben Milam (could be spelled wrong) set a new national record in F-Open. He shot a 150 15X for score and then shot another shot and his 16th shot was an X also thats why it was 16X. This was done at 800 yards, I was on the line when he did it. It was not dead calm either, wind was blowing. GREAT shooting by a great guy, congrats to Ben.

 

[Down South]

Apples and Oranges. F Open versus F TR.

This thread is about 308 which is F TR not F Open.


F Open perfects happen.
F Open has nothing to do with this thread

I'm well aware of the difference between TR and Open, I shoot TR. You are absolutely correct, much harder to shoot cleans in TR but it was still an amazing feat to shoot 15X clean even if it was an Open rifle at 800 yards in less than perfect conditions. Sorry to the original poster for getting off topic, carry on.