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Night Vision Is it legal to buy a peq-15 from eBay?
- Thread starter Alcatraz
- Start date
The problem with buying a PEQ 15 is knowing where it came from. They have never been sold to civilians so likely any PEQ 15 you run across either came stolen from the Military or it was sold off buy a police department. Now a PD sale isn't illegal but it breaks a sales agreement between L3 and the PD doing the sale. So either way, likely not a good idea. Plus if it ever breaks, L3 will not repair or replace it if you aren't the original purchaser i.e. Govt or LE agency.
Loss of eyesight, but who gives a shit about that.
Laser radiation in the near-infrared region of the spectrum (700-1400nm) is absorbed primarily within the retina.
The eye can focus a collimated near-infrared beam by as much as 100,000 times through the lens to the retina.
This portion of the spectrum is a very dangerous area.
The eye will focus the energy, but it is not visible and thus creates a very dangerous situation.
Freaks like to shine them in airplane pilots eyes though for fun:
https://www.hf.faa.gov/docs/CAMI/0107.pdf
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More than likely they are watching the sale, ( have here in the past)
after you you buy it, you will get a knock on the door, they will "recover" stolen property and you'll be out what you paid.
If you squeak by and get away with it, more power to you. But be warned the agents watch these sites and request info on sales like this all the time. They don't bust you, just recover the goods at your expense.
Buy a civvy legal laser, there are a lot of goods ones on the market.
after you you buy it, you will get a knock on the door, they will "recover" stolen property and you'll be out what you paid.
If you squeak by and get away with it, more power to you. But be warned the agents watch these sites and request info on sales like this all the time. They don't bust you, just recover the goods at your expense.
Buy a civvy legal laser, there are a lot of goods ones on the market.
PEQ 15's are THE bomb strictly because of the illuminator. That's it....
The "light saber" laser it has it 99% worthless. The 1% of its use is to make your buddy's say "holy shit!!". So ask your self, do I really need to illuminate something out to and past 1000yrds? If so get it! But not from ebay. I know for a fact that they check ebay records and get addresses to come get the stolen stuff.
Buy from a individual if you get one and don't leave a paper trail to your house. Here's how I see it. If its stolen its because someone else stole it not you. That person sucks at life and needs punished. But hey you bought the damn thing for the military any way so they should have kept up with it better! Lol
But seriously if your not shooting long range at night there's no need just get a DBAL d2
The "light saber" laser it has it 99% worthless. The 1% of its use is to make your buddy's say "holy shit!!". So ask your self, do I really need to illuminate something out to and past 1000yrds? If so get it! But not from ebay. I know for a fact that they check ebay records and get addresses to come get the stolen stuff.
Buy from a individual if you get one and don't leave a paper trail to your house. Here's how I see it. If its stolen its because someone else stole it not you. That person sucks at life and needs punished. But hey you bought the damn thing for the military any way so they should have kept up with it better! Lol
But seriously if your not shooting long range at night there's no need just get a DBAL d2
And just to follow up with what LL said. I had one....purchased it legally(at least thats what he told me) from a guy who worked for Spikes Tactical....ended up selling it and I still got a Call from DHS on its retrieval.
Guess I need to set the record straight here once again with your post.... YES IT'S SURELY ILLEGAL A LEO or DEPT RE-SELLS A "DEPT OWNED/PURCHASED" RESTRICTED CLASS IIIb unless that LE Dept. in question is somehow a manufacturer with a variance from the FDA. You seem not to read a few news stories on this topic. One of the biggies, the last agency, the DOE who let go of about 100 restricted A2's several years ago lost a few careers and was plea bargained in the courts...This was just one of several in the last 4-5 years.
To all you LEO's or Dept's reading, DO NOT DO THIS and re-sell a restricted device of these sorts. Contact LDI, Insight, etc. (the official qualified manufacturer your purchased from) if you need to legally relinquish your devices. Email or call us if unsure, and we can put you in touch with the direct personnel to accomplish this.
Vic
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So as an Example Vic, the DBAL-A2 that 44Mag.com had for sale a number of years ago, first a number of PAQ-4C and then some time later some DBAL-A2 if these were the ones that came from DOE or similar they are still technically improperly obtained due to the chain of custody? Or having been in that "batch" are they in the clear? It would seem impossible to prove a properly obtained chain of custody in any event (as there probably isn't one).
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I am not sure on the 4C's but familiar with the A2's from the DOE sale. We were told these were the only units "in the clear" and exceptions were made. With that said, units that have gone down are still a paperweight as they're no means to repair these units officially. At the onset, these 100 units were sold "as is, with no expressed warranties". We had many calls a few years back for guidance with some folks stuck with a 1.5K (or whatever they paid) loss on a non working unit. This fact was the real sad part of that whole fiasco. 
Vic
Edit, One thing about "in the clear" does NOT mean export! These units are still FULLY ITAR restricted working or not.
Vic
Edit, One thing about "in the clear" does NOT mean export! These units are still FULLY ITAR restricted working or not.
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Buyer be aware, and beware
It is illegal for you to knowingly purchase stolen equipment.
If you unknowingly purchase equipment stolen from the government, government representatives can recover the equipment from you without reimbursing you.
It is not illegal, however, for you (as a civilian, U.S. citizen) to possess a high-output IR laser. The onus is on the manufacturer to keep record of all production and sales of high-output IR laser devices, and to ensure that they are distributed only to authorized users, such as military and law enforcement. Some IR laser devices with exceptionally high output are restricted for distribution to military only, with no variance for distribution to law enforcement. Authorized users commensurately inherit responsibility to return to the manufacturer or destroy any high-output IR laser device that is no longer needed or not functioning properly.
Though it is not illegal for you (as a civilian, U.S. citizen) to possess a high-output IR laser, your possession of one will automatically come with the burden of personal liability for any injury you may cause while using or mis-using the device. Also, many high-output IR lasers are specifically regulated under the ITAR, which prohibits ANYONE in possession of the ITAR controlled device to transfer it to a foreign national, or to enable or allow foreign nationals to examine or use the device.
Not all "military" IR lasers circulating on the open market are stolen or misappropriated government property. The manufacturers themselves often lose track of high-output IR lasers used in research and development - especially by subcontracted laboratories and engineering firms, and when they incorporate high-output IR lasers as "marking or pointer devices" in other imaging equipment that they or their officers then later release for public sale as contract overruns or excess inventory. eBay is aware of these facts, and they monitor the *sellers* of such devices carefully. The most recent cases of sellers of such equipment becoming prosecuted for ITAR violations for selling to foreign nationals were the result of eBay reporting the sales to Federal law enforcement.
Some recent eBay sellers of "military" IR laser devices have handles associated with sellers who have been convicted of selling stolen government equipment, running afoul of ITAR regulations, or both. The fact that those persons are serving out prison sentences and yet are "mysteriously" or "magically" somehow able to continue an active seller's presence on eBay should be understood as a warning [to stay away and not get involved in what's going on there].
Buyer be aware, and beware.
IR-V
It is illegal for you to knowingly purchase stolen equipment.
If you unknowingly purchase equipment stolen from the government, government representatives can recover the equipment from you without reimbursing you.
It is not illegal, however, for you (as a civilian, U.S. citizen) to possess a high-output IR laser. The onus is on the manufacturer to keep record of all production and sales of high-output IR laser devices, and to ensure that they are distributed only to authorized users, such as military and law enforcement. Some IR laser devices with exceptionally high output are restricted for distribution to military only, with no variance for distribution to law enforcement. Authorized users commensurately inherit responsibility to return to the manufacturer or destroy any high-output IR laser device that is no longer needed or not functioning properly.
Though it is not illegal for you (as a civilian, U.S. citizen) to possess a high-output IR laser, your possession of one will automatically come with the burden of personal liability for any injury you may cause while using or mis-using the device. Also, many high-output IR lasers are specifically regulated under the ITAR, which prohibits ANYONE in possession of the ITAR controlled device to transfer it to a foreign national, or to enable or allow foreign nationals to examine or use the device.
Not all "military" IR lasers circulating on the open market are stolen or misappropriated government property. The manufacturers themselves often lose track of high-output IR lasers used in research and development - especially by subcontracted laboratories and engineering firms, and when they incorporate high-output IR lasers as "marking or pointer devices" in other imaging equipment that they or their officers then later release for public sale as contract overruns or excess inventory. eBay is aware of these facts, and they monitor the *sellers* of such devices carefully. The most recent cases of sellers of such equipment becoming prosecuted for ITAR violations for selling to foreign nationals were the result of eBay reporting the sales to Federal law enforcement.
Some recent eBay sellers of "military" IR laser devices have handles associated with sellers who have been convicted of selling stolen government equipment, running afoul of ITAR regulations, or both. The fact that those persons are serving out prison sentences and yet are "mysteriously" or "magically" somehow able to continue an active seller's presence on eBay should be understood as a warning [to stay away and not get involved in what's going on there].
Buyer be aware, and beware.
IR-V
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i will chime in with the lost standpoint.
background, unit armorer in us army for 18 months, there are many safegaurds against equipment loss/theft. when i would go pick up equipment, there are protocols, like must be 2 nco's involved, every serial # is checked by 1 then re-verified by another. issue of equipment was checked by 3 sets of eyes both going out of the arms room, also returning, 2 forms filled out with serial #'s to all equipment signed out, and signed back in. after equipment turn in, required inventory by 2 persons, 1 E7, then again by an officer, neither allowed to be associated with arms room. monthly by serial # inventory done on ALL equipment in arms room, including ( class 9, which is items that wear out and are thrown away. i.e. batteries, caps' and that sort of crap) any lost items must be reported immediately. at that time the armorer will be removed, 3rd part comes in and empties the room, inventories EVERY piece of equipment, all persons in that unit are put in lock down status, cars searched, personal belonging's searched, any training used area will be searched. you all get the drift i'm sure. regardless if the equipment is not found, the last person that signed for said equipment is responsible, and will pay for it. on top of this, his chain of command, from team leader to commander is in deep shit. now i have seen equipment lost, ie. 2 peq 15's by an armorer, that's how i got the job! he was fired on the spot and paid for both pieces. i heard 1 was recovered later from a sale on an internet site. the 2nd item i never heard what happened.
heed the warnings here. the govt does watch these sites, i could care less, but would rather not have someone pay for something and have it ''recovered''..
kenny
background, unit armorer in us army for 18 months, there are many safegaurds against equipment loss/theft. when i would go pick up equipment, there are protocols, like must be 2 nco's involved, every serial # is checked by 1 then re-verified by another. issue of equipment was checked by 3 sets of eyes both going out of the arms room, also returning, 2 forms filled out with serial #'s to all equipment signed out, and signed back in. after equipment turn in, required inventory by 2 persons, 1 E7, then again by an officer, neither allowed to be associated with arms room. monthly by serial # inventory done on ALL equipment in arms room, including ( class 9, which is items that wear out and are thrown away. i.e. batteries, caps' and that sort of crap) any lost items must be reported immediately. at that time the armorer will be removed, 3rd part comes in and empties the room, inventories EVERY piece of equipment, all persons in that unit are put in lock down status, cars searched, personal belonging's searched, any training used area will be searched. you all get the drift i'm sure. regardless if the equipment is not found, the last person that signed for said equipment is responsible, and will pay for it. on top of this, his chain of command, from team leader to commander is in deep shit. now i have seen equipment lost, ie. 2 peq 15's by an armorer, that's how i got the job! he was fired on the spot and paid for both pieces. i heard 1 was recovered later from a sale on an internet site. the 2nd item i never heard what happened.
heed the warnings here. the govt does watch these sites, i could care less, but would rather not have someone pay for something and have it ''recovered''..
kenny
I've had a nice conversation with DHS / Customs, and they seem to find a number of items that are reported as destroyed in the field and then sold on the grey / black market.
At the end of the day you're very likely to be in receipt of stolen property, and it's just not worth.
Especially when there are (now) eye safe civilian units and you don't need to worry about the safety aspect of laser discipline or the total lack of a blink response that damages someone's retina(s).
At the end of the day you're very likely to be in receipt of stolen property, and it's just not worth.
Especially when there are (now) eye safe civilian units and you don't need to worry about the safety aspect of laser discipline or the total lack of a blink response that damages someone's retina(s).
I also understand that you can send questionably obtained PEQs, or ones you want to get rid of, to Ft. Huachuca for disposition.
Unless you can get a variance from the FDA and convince them to sell you one brand new, it's not worth the risk of having an alphabet agency come knocking on your door. The Class 1 lasers are far better suited to the civilian world.
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Because the fastest route is a strait line . And the hardest thing to see sometimes is right in front of your face . And that would make more sense ... ETC .
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There is always something like this to light cigarettes,blind your friends and pets.
IR 5 watt. stupidly dangerous. Not weapon rated. Not ITAR restricted.
High Power 5W infrared 808nm laser torch/excellent burning/Safe [OL-808-5W] - $689.99 : Zen Cart!, The Art of E-commerce
IR 5 watt. stupidly dangerous. Not weapon rated. Not ITAR restricted.
High Power 5W infrared 808nm laser torch/excellent burning/Safe [OL-808-5W] - $689.99 : Zen Cart!, The Art of E-commerce
Indeed. The only effective difference between a PEQ-15 (or even a PEQ-2/4/whatever) and legal civilian lasers is the high-power setting on the military versions. Fact is that if you try to use the high power setting with night vision at any reasonable distance you'll overpower the NVG and the bloom from the reflected laser light will obscure your target completely...if it doesn't burn the tube. The high-power setting is normally only used for target designation for artillery or airstrikes.
Empirically in my experience even many of the commercial laser IR beams are too bright to be used at less than a couple of hundred yards because of bloom, even pistol lasers.
Less is more in most situations...unless you're directing airstrikes.
It's also way less stressful...
With really good civilian equipment like the DBAL-D2, DBAL-I2 and especially the new Wilcox RAPTOR-ES LITE readily available from great dealers like TNVC, why would anyone even roll the dice? To me, the best part is that they are factory warrantied and can be repaired. It would suck to have a multi thousand dollar paperweight and suck even worse to have stolen gear in your possession. I have the RAPTAR and it is an awesome piece of kit.
L3/Insight could remedy the civilian desire for a PEQ-15 by just putting class 1 stuff in a Mil-Spec PEQ-15 housing. Leave the illuminator port empty for all I care! I have one simple request, and that is to have rifles with fricken lasers attached to their rails. Now, evidently TNVC informs me that that cannot be done.
What you're describing can't be done only because the high-output (45 mW) aiming laser would remain intact. It's the PEQ-14 / ILWLP that has an eye-safe IR and VIS laser aimer, coupled with a white light "flashlight" and high-output (30 mW) IR laser illuminator. Insight L3 has issued VIS only versions of the ILWLP by omitting the IR laser modules - the housing remains undrilled for the IR laser apertures and the IR switch positions remain but are useless.
Can you bust open a PEQ-15 or PEQ-14 and neuter it? Sure, you can try - but everything inside is solidly bedded in epoxy and unless you're some kind of paleontologist (fossil hunting scientist) with tools and skills for removing fine objects from rock matrix without damaging them, you'll pretty much end up busting the PEQ into many, many pieces.
IR-V
Not sure we're on the same page. I'm suggesting they just start out with a class 1 IR laser (just like the ones in the LDI civilian lasers) and the standard red visible laser and mold it into the PEQ-15 housing that we're all so fond of.
Wouldn't that make it civilian legal?Not sure we're on the same page. I'm suggesting they just start out with a class 1 IR laser (just like the ones in the LDI civilian lasers) and the standard red visible laser and mold it into the PEQ-15 housing that we're all so fond of.
From a technology perspective, that is entirely doable. Have you looked at the Class 1 Eotech / Insight L3 CIVL, which is informally referred to as the "eye safe" ATPIAL? It's not an exact clone of the PEQ-15 / ATPIAL form, but close and can accept a mini-reflex sight.
IR-V
Yes, the CIVL has been on everybody's radar for some time now, nothing concrete though.
Guys. Let me say this. The lasers are 99% chance of being stolen.
When CID calls, you are talking to a federal agent
They have the answers to the questions they are asking you
If you lie, you will likely be charged with perjury.
If you call me, I will deal with them. For a price.
Now, why call me? So you can communicate with them without as big a worry about pursuing yourself.
You will likely lose the item. That's all they are looking for.
They will lie, tell a story and say whatever to get you to admit having it.
When you admit to having it, they will get it.
The current crop of laser devices class I lasers makes having a .mil laser superfluous.
It isn't worth the risk.
Thus is my opinion. It's not legal advice. I hope it's good advice.
When CID calls, you are talking to a federal agent
They have the answers to the questions they are asking you
If you lie, you will likely be charged with perjury.
If you call me, I will deal with them. For a price.
Now, why call me? So you can communicate with them without as big a worry about pursuing yourself.
You will likely lose the item. That's all they are looking for.
They will lie, tell a story and say whatever to get you to admit having it.
When you admit to having it, they will get it.
The current crop of laser devices class I lasers makes having a .mil laser superfluous.
It isn't worth the risk.
Thus is my opinion. It's not legal advice. I hope it's good advice.
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Here is a question for everyone bantering this around...
What would anyone pay for a PEQ-15 that was class 1? As in Class 1 IR laser, Red Visible and class 1 IR laser Illuminator? inquiring minds want to know!
P.S. This would be from Insight By the way.
What would anyone pay for a PEQ-15 that was class 1? As in Class 1 IR laser, Red Visible and class 1 IR laser Illuminator? inquiring minds want to know!
P.S. This would be from Insight By the way.
For a legit, class 1 PEQ-15, identical in appearance to the high powered units, in tan of course
? $1400, 1500 tops. The DBAL-D2 (red vis) is almost 1500 and has an aluminum (very bulky) housing. I would think the cost for Insight to produce said units wouldn't be too high as they would be using the standard PEQ-15 molds. Does the IR laser illuminator cost more than the IR LED illuminator that the D2 uses?
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Is the same true for An/PEQ 2A, I see them for sale on ebay and other sites as well
Here is the bottom line to your question.
1.It is NOT illegal to buy what you are talking about UNLESS you are knowingly purchasing stolen property. Then you have problems. Many items are not necessarily stolen, but may be written off as combat losses. Happens all the time. I have seen it several times at locations in Afghanistan. And then later it shows up on EBay.
2. You are under no obligation to talk to a federal agent about your purchase. DO NOT LIE. Technically that is a title 18 violation. Very politely decline the conversation until you talk to an attorney, if you are concerned. That is your right. In the Northeren District of Texas the USA is not interested in innocent purchasers-beside there is no way to prove intent unless you are dumb enough to put it in writing somewhere. I checked into this two years ago when I was considering this purchase. I then purchased something else. Mainly because of the lack of ANY type of fix it support.
3. Why ? In todays market there are way too many other options out there that will meet 99.9% of your needs. Although it is cool to be able to shine from one moutain range to another in Afghanistan with your B.E. Meyers Illuminator or marker.
I was a Fed for 30 years, and have a fairly strong background in all the other fun stuff and have checked into all this in the past.
1.It is NOT illegal to buy what you are talking about UNLESS you are knowingly purchasing stolen property. Then you have problems. Many items are not necessarily stolen, but may be written off as combat losses. Happens all the time. I have seen it several times at locations in Afghanistan. And then later it shows up on EBay.
2. You are under no obligation to talk to a federal agent about your purchase. DO NOT LIE. Technically that is a title 18 violation. Very politely decline the conversation until you talk to an attorney, if you are concerned. That is your right. In the Northeren District of Texas the USA is not interested in innocent purchasers-beside there is no way to prove intent unless you are dumb enough to put it in writing somewhere. I checked into this two years ago when I was considering this purchase. I then purchased something else. Mainly because of the lack of ANY type of fix it support.
3. Why ? In todays market there are way too many other options out there that will meet 99.9% of your needs. Although it is cool to be able to shine from one moutain range to another in Afghanistan with your B.E. Meyers Illuminator or marker.
I was a Fed for 30 years, and have a fairly strong background in all the other fun stuff and have checked into all this in the past.
I haven't read these stories, I have been (a favorite Vic quote here) "AS MOST KNOW" too busy with with inventing things. Since I am heading down the Laser manufacturing road, PLEASE point me to these stories where Law Enforcement agencies have been actually prosecuted for this crime? Also if you could? What is the exact CFR that they violated and was it Felony level crime? Misdemeanor level crime? Or was it Infraction Level Crime? that these Law Enforcement agencies committed? since your setting the record straight, Please? I am curious!
Look around Pete. DOE big sale several years ago, they were not set up I guess to re-sell now were they. Last year 2 LEO's arrested for selling IR lasers among many other weapon related charges. Read again what I said about Dept's not set up with FDA variances to sell a Class IIIb device. Done with you, go do your homework.
As stated, for you LEO's do not sell your restricted lasers that your Dept. obtained legally in accordance to begin with.
Done with me? I could only be so lucky!
Now... do you REALLY want me to go do my homework? Think and I mean REALLY T H I N K long and hard on this because if I actually take the time to go looking... you KNOW I will find out the real deal, and that hasn't always worked out so well for you in the past now has it?
LOL, ok Peter...The last time you did you homework around here for the real deal on the Hide could have gotten someone killed with your famed drilling holes in the Ops Core helmet DIY lanyard project by installing bolts through the helmet next to someones skull. Good news several brought this to your attention, but we already had a safer solution that seemed to keep hundreds of skulls from injury. TNVC Base Jump Lanyard ? Tactical Night Vision Company
Good luck there Pete! Out.
