Is it me, or the rifle?

[Scratchthejeepguy]

I'm not too entirely happy with my rifle. First off let me say that I'm new to the whole precision shooting thing. I've been shooting for over 25 years, but mostly pistol and shotgun. I recently decided to try precision shooting, so I did what I hear a lot of people do, and went out and bought a Remington SPS tactical in .308. I shimmed the stock and adjusted the trigger a little, added a TPS bedded steel base, and lapped TPS steel rings, with a Vortex 6-24X50 FFP on top, and got to shooting. I reload also, and did an OCW test and found my best loads using 168 SMK HPBT with 44.0 of Varget, and 175's with 42.5. I've been shooting at 100 yards on a bench with a pack up front, and a sandbag out back. I was averaging just under 1" at 100 yards with 5 shot groups. My average sized 5 shot group is around .930 or something. Some go as high as around 1.5 inches, and some in the .5 area.

I guess I was happy with those groups since I'm still new to this (to date I only have 245 rounds through the gun) plus it had the Hogue stock, and factory trigger, but then I went and got an XLR Carbon chassis hoping my groups would shrink... they haven't... at all. Don't get me wrong, I love this chassis. I have no plans to get rid of it. I love the look, the feel, everything, but I really thought my groups would shrink.

Is it just me? Did I not find the right load yet? Do I just need to shoot more? I have a data book and have been religious about it, even though I haven't quite realized it's full potential yet, which I'm sure I will someday... I call the shots mostly on target, but they end up all over the place!

Or is it that's about all I can expect from this rifle with a factory barrel and trigger? Should I be happy with this accuracy? Maybe the barrel just needs a longer break in period? I don't know...

I also have a .223 Franken built AR rifle that I use for target shooting, and even with a cheap DPMS bull barrel, Factory trigger, and cheap scope... I still get just about the same average sized groups with it, which is what I expect from that rifle and leads me to believe it might not be the shooter...


As far as reloading, I've been doing it for about 3 years. I have an XL650 but I use a single stage for the .308. I take my time. I throw the powder charge, then trickle charge each one on a digital scale to the nearest hundredth. I anneal every time, tumble with SS pins, measure to the ogive, etc.... I feel I've got a good handle on reloading.

Any input...?

Here's the rifle:

Here's some targets from today:

 

[garandman]

I load 168gr HPBT SMK's with 44.0 gr Varget, and get 0.60 MoA, or better in a semi auto DPMS LR-308.

Couple things -

My 5-shot groups will often open up to an inch. Hard to do it exactly right 5 times in a row. Also, flyers do happen, they are not just an excuse.

9 times out of 10, its me, not the rifle.

That said, I'd consider a barrel upgrade. Not too expensive, and almost certain to be better than factory on the SPS. Get the action trued at the same time. Prolly a $5-700 investment.

Check all the simple things first - action bolts tight, and properly torqued. Scope horizontal reticle leveled. Scope rings tight. etc etc

 

[bkw1911]

I would say you just arent getting amazing results with varget. Blc-2 at 45.0gr always shot alot better for me with 168s than varget ever did. Also try some h4895 with 175gr bullets. You should be able to find something closer to 1/2in.

 

[Deltagunner00]

Are you trying various bullet seating depths (on the lands, jammed, etc.) to see what you rifle likes the most?

 

[Scratchthejeepguy]

Thanks for the input guys....


All the bolts are properly torqued and reticle is level, I don't have a level on the scope or rifle yet though...

I have only tried Varget in this rifle. I've been searching for Re15 but you all know how hard it is to find ANY powder these days. I'll have to try to find some others also. I'd rather just use one powder for all my rifle loads, but maybe I need to rethink that thought process...

I also haven't tried any other seating depths. I'm seating about 2.20 to the ogive. If I remember right... I'm sure it's around 2.8 COAL.

 

[garandman]

Are you trying various bullet seating depths (on the lands, jammed, etc.) to see what you rifle likes the most?

Good idea.

 

[Pinecone]

I found my Rem 700 (PS-1 based) likes 43.5 grains of Varget in Lapua brass and 175 SMK. 42.5 seems like off of a node. 3% less than my 43.5 would be 42.1.

But the real gains came from seating depth. I started with 2.800" COAL, and then ran a test from 2.780" - out to about 2.90" (longest that would fit in the mags). And the groups got smaller as the seating length got longer.

 

[Deltagunner00]

Thanks for the input guys....


All the bolts are properly torqued and reticle is level, I don't have a level on the scope or rifle yet though...

I have only tried Varget in this rifle. I've been searching for Re15 but you all know how hard it is to find ANY powder these days. I'll have to try to find some others also. I'd rather just use one powder for all my rifle loads, but maybe I need to rethink that thought process...

I also haven't tried any other seating depths. I'm seating about 2.20 to the ogive. If I remember right... I'm sure it's around 2.8 COAL.

Before doing anything else you need to try and find the perfect OAL/seating depth for your rifle. Once you find this and do your part behind the rifle your groups will tighten up...almost guaranteed. Good luck

 

[ShtrRdy]

Something else to try is have someone who is an excellent rifle shooter try your rifle. I think it takes extra careful consistency to get those smaller groups. I'm still learning myself.

 

[sniperdude]

have you ran any factory loaded match ammo through it to compare?

whenever im working up a load for a particular rifle, I always try some fed gm (if available) or similar match, kind of a bench mark

I usually do what pinecone says for seating depth , I believe the .30's run best from just touching to about .30 off the lands (from Sinclair)

how is your eye relief on that scope, and if you shoot at the highest power, have you backed off a bit, for me at 100 yards, the highest power sometimes is too much

 

[Scratchthejeepguy]

So I still want to try the same powder charge that worked best right, then try other seating depths with that charge correct?

Or could changing seating depth open up another variable, where now I'll have to find the best charge for that depth?

 

[Scratchthejeepguy]

I've tried only one box of factory ammo, I'm pretty sure it was Hornady 168 gr, about the same results....


Eye relief is about 3-1/2" and I have not backed off the power at all. It seems fine for me.

 

[Deltagunner00]

I would start at the same charge with different depths. Once you find the most consistent/accurate depth you can tinker with the charge a little more. Maybe in .3 increments +/-. Just my 2 cents.

 

[backyardsniper]

Find the powder charge that works best I shoot 44.0gr of varget as well whether its 168 or 175 then adjust seating depth. Which honestly I usually just run at 2.800 regardless. That is the difference, you will find with a factory rig vs a custom barreled rifle. It takes a lot more tinkering with the load to get a factory rifle to shoot really good, where as I've found my custom rifles to not be as picky. I usually can .75ish with about any load and then when you find the exact right one they get really small. I have also found as a general rule if it won't shoot 44.0gr of varget into at least a reasonably small group, it ain't gonna shoot anything else very good either. That is strictly my .02 it's worth exactly what you paid for it. Scott Mcree of Mcree Precision has a barrel set up he calls a remage. It goes on a reimgton 700 action but has a barrel nut like a savage so you can install it yourself right at home and the ones I have dealt with were on plain old un trued rem700 actions and they shot like mad. I intend to own one myself in the future. Just an option for you to look into if you want to upgrade barrels. Don't have to send it off to the smith and no down time, keep shooting the one you got till the other one gets there in the mail.

 

[hahco]

Are you trying various bullet seating depths (on the lands, jammed, etc.) to see what you rifle likes the most?

not to dissuade the OP from trying various seating depths, but I doubt he'll be able to get to the lands in a factory 700 short action in .308. Mine has a loooong throat, and I don't think it is atypical. usually not gonna be able to get too far away from 2.8" COAL and still have the rounds fit in the magazine.

I think the advice to try some factory match ammo is a good.

 

[Scratchthejeepguy]

So does anybody have any idea what size groups should a "very experienced shooter" be able to get with a rifle like this?

And then if I were to get a new barrel and trigger, about what size groups should they get then.

With good ammo....


Might give me something to "shoot" for

 

[hdbiker1]

If I were you, I'd keep playing to find a good load and shoot what you got so as to get more experience. Once you are at that point, it's up to you if going custom would be worth your money and shooting satisfaction.
I had an AAC-SD that would ave. in the .6's. I figured that was good enough for what it was. I did go custom and after some load development would ave. .4-.5. Then I went to a 6.5x47 and ave. is in the .3's. It all depends on what floats your boat, trips your trigger, etc. Just have fun with it.

 

[samnev]

My brother has a stock Remington SPS. His load is 39 grains of IMR 4895 behind 168 grain SMK's. His 5 shot 100 yard groups run 0.6 moa on a good day right around 1 moa on a bad day. His OAL is 2.80. He has been shooting for over 40 years. I don't remember what scope he has but it's a 6.5-25X50 iirc but he usually runs it about 17X.

 

[Wheaticus]

When I first finished my rifle about a there or for months back I was having a similar problem and my consistency improved to a degree when I added a level. The rifle had a cant of just a few degrees but that was moving my groups anywhere from a half moa to 1.5 moa

 

[Warhammer72]

Hey Scratch, I'm new to precision rifles as well. I have the same action and barrel. From what I've learned to this date. You have to ask yourself what it is exactly you are expecting from the weapon system. The SPS is entry level. If you looking for 10 shots through a ragged hole that's gonna require a considerable investment. For the time being I'm satisfied with first round impacts at distance. While I do expect a degree of accuracy, I choose to focus on consistency of the weapon system, weapon and organic component. Looks to me like you're hitting your intended target. Keep up the hard work.

 

[Scratchthejeepguy]

Thanks all, I guess I'm not "too" far off considering Im learning as I go, I think I have to realize that even the very best rifles and shooters are getting groups in the .3's to .5's aren't they? So I guess if my average is around the .9's, I should really be happy considering what I have.
Just like most other hobbies, your performance is directly related to how much money you spend on it, so I can't expect to start shooting .5's right away.

I think my next purchase will be a good trigger, then maybe after that, I'll think about new barrels.

 

[FALex]

If I were you, I would seat the projectiles to 2.80 COAL. Typically, Rem's have such a long throat that getting to the lands is damn near impossible. I would load 5-10 rounds in various increments of .2 grains, beginning from about 44.0 to around the recommended max (IIRC is 46.0, don't quote me, though). I'd stick with the 168 SMK too. Might look at some AMAX also. Report back after you've done more testing.

ETA - you have a sweet XLR, but tell me you have replaced the trigger. If not, I'd do that like yesterday. Timney will have you falling in love.

 

[TheGerman]

Changing your loads may be better, may be worse and may have you chasing a load for the next year. It's not bad by any means and now you have a solid benchmark; I would not consider messing with loads to be priority at this point.

You bought a rifle that while good, has alot of room for improvement in that the action isn't trued, you are using that awful Remington trigger and the single most important factor - a match barrel.

Now don't think that simply buying stuff will fix things either and remember, the further you go the more diminishing the returns become. I am guessing from just the target you posted (limited info, and assuming you're a righty) that you find yourself at times anticipating the recoil before you shoot. Whenever I used to, I shot low/left consistently.

I would suggest to keep everything as is and not get frustrated. Dry fire the shit out of it and then keep taking notes during your range session. I am willing to bet you can get more consistent before upgrading anything.

 

[Pinecone]

Something else to try is have someone who is an excellent rifle shooter try your rifle. I think it takes extra careful consistency to get those smaller groups. I'm still learning myself.

This ^^^^^^

I always assume that it is the loose nut operating the equipment FIRST. It may be the equipment, but just have a good shooter try the equipment and you will know right away.

In most every endeavor/sport, it is 90% the person and 10% the equipment.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Reading through this, it looks to me that you've got good handles on load development, handloading diligence, and the equipment is in a tight groove. I would still check for loose components, and verify that the barrel crown is good, but that's about all that's left before we get to the shooter.

First, your marksmanship/accuracy appears to be quite good and on a par with the average recreational marksman.

Refinements would follow.

I would start by studying up on scope mounting/eye relief, parallax, reticle focus, and the best ways to get a consistent stock/cheek weld and degree of cheek and butt pad pressure. Are you concentrating your attention on the crosshair or on the target? I prefer the crosshair, but whichever you prefer, be sure you do it consistently. I would try various means of getting a sharper reticle/target alignment. Like using a tangent crosshair hold against the side and top or bottom edge of the target ring and offsetting the POI onto the target center.

See what these sorts of refinements can bring.

Greg

 

[Deadshot2]

Most beginning shooter/reloaders fall into a trap early on. When groups aren't small enough they mess with their loads.

I would offer that the first thing to do is to analyze the groups. There are two major components, horizontal and vertical dispersion. Separate them and treat each in the manner that will make the most improvement. For the most part, vertical is caused by the load. If the load isn't matched to the barrel harmonics then you will see vertical dispersion.

Horizontal dispersion, if the wind isn't an obvious factor, is almost always caused by the shooter. From the placement of the butt pad in the shoulder pocket, the amount of cheek pressure on the stock, to the trigger technique, all can spread the group across the target.

I've found that taking a load that performs reasonably well (under 1 MOA) and practicing by focusing on "position" and trigger technique, until I have groups that have holes stacked in a vertical line, or as close as possible, I can then go to adjusting my loads.

Starting with your practice load, do an OCW test using that load as the center. Don't forget what you've learned when working the "horizontal" out of your patterns.

Yes, this is a pretty simplified analysis but I think you'll find that it works pretty darn well compared to trying to play with charge weights, OAL's, etc, all while trying to learn a good technique.

A simple rule to follow is to work on only ONE variable at a time. The "shooter" is the biggest variable of all. Like one Palma competitor told me a while ago, "Once you find what's right, you have to do the same thing every time". Think about how hard that is, getting the stock placed the SAME each time, with your cheek in the same place, and pull the trigger the same time every time, all the while trying to maintain your point of aim?

When you master all that, THEN play with the ammo.

 

[Scratchthejeepguy]

Great info guys, thanks. Looks like I have something to work on!

 

[long range newbie]

I would show you my first precision rifle but Idk where camera is lol its just a rem 700 with a 260bbl 28in with 1:8 twist, have an hs precision stock, with a ptg bottom metal for now, until I get a chassis. it shoots around .5 but I haven't been able to shoot in almost a month

 

[long range newbie]

Yeah but just saying some of that has to do only with palma/ highpower (I know a highpower shooter)

 

[JGorski]

I'm not too entirely happy with my rifle. First off let me say that I'm new to the whole precision shooting thing. I've been shooting for over 25 years, but mostly pistol and shotgun. I recently decided to try precision shooting, so I did what I hear a lot of people do, and went out and bought a Remington SPS tactical in .308. I shimmed the stock and adjusted the trigger a little, added a TPS bedded steel base, and lapped TPS steel rings, with a Vortex 6-24X50 FFP on top, and got to shooting. I reload also, and did an OCW test and found my best loads using 168 SMK HPBT with 44.0 of Varget, and 175's with 42.5. I've been shooting at 100 yards on a bench with a pack up front, and a sandbag out back. I was averaging just under 1" at 100 yards with 5 shot groups. My average sized 5 shot group is around .930 or something. Some go as high as around 1.5 inches, and some in the .5 area.

I guess I was happy with those groups since I'm still new to this (to date I only have 245 rounds through the gun) plus it had the Hogue stock, and factory trigger, but then I went and got an XLR Carbon chassis hoping my groups would shrink... they haven't... at all. Don't get me wrong, I love this chassis. I have no plans to get rid of it. I love the look, the feel, everything, but I really thought my groups would shrink.

Is it just me? Did I not find the right load yet? Do I just need to shoot more? I have a data book and have been religious about it, even though I haven't quite realized it's full potential yet, which I'm sure I will someday... I call the shots mostly on target, but they end up all over the place!

Or is it that's about all I can expect from this rifle with a factory barrel and trigger? Should I be happy with this accuracy? Maybe the barrel just needs a longer break in period? I don't know...

I also have a .223 Franken built AR rifle that I use for target shooting, and even with a cheap DPMS bull barrel, Factory trigger, and cheap scope... I still get just about the same average sized groups with it, which is what I expect from that rifle and leads me to believe it might not be the shooter...


As far as reloading, I've been doing it for about 3 years. I have an XL650 but I use a single stage for the .308. I take my time. I throw the powder charge, then trickle charge each one on a digital scale to the nearest hundredth. I anneal every time, tumble with SS pins, measure to the ogive, etc.... I feel I've got a good handle on reloading.

Any input...?

Here's the rifle:

Here's some targets from today:

What possessed you to lap the TPS rings, that was a waste of time, they dont need lapping. get rid of that shit X mark pro trigger and buy a Jewell, set it at 8oz and get a good rest and nice rabbit ear bag, try some 168 or 178AMAXs(if you can find them) with CFE/2000MR. My SPSS will shoot a ragged hole at 100yds with the AMAXs, not so much with SMKs. Varget, forget about it! RE15 has ALWAYS worked better for me, then I discovered 2000MR/CFE, more speed very good accuracy, cleaner burning to boot.

 

[JGorski]

So does anybody have any idea what size groups should a "very experienced shooter" be able to get with a rifle like this?

And then if I were to get a new barrel and trigger, about what size groups should they get then.

With good ammo....


Might give me something to "shoot" for

Factory 700s will shoot .5moa out to 300yds. at least mine does. This 1st pic is me shooting off a bipod,(something I've never donw with my 308) the other was last year off my Slingshot rest, not to bad for 300yds. 1st pic was with a load of CFE, 2nd was 2000MR and CFE, Shot the 47grs CFE at 600yds last year for a 4.7" group. All of which were 168AMAXs.

 

[ArughaPride]

Something else to try is have someone who is an excellent rifle shooter try your rifle. I think it takes extra careful consistency to get those smaller groups. I'm still learning myself.

100% agree with the buddy check. Have him bring his stick too so you guys have a constant (rifle and ammo) to compare with. Before I had work done to my 700 we shot my buddies and getting great groups. Whenever we switched rifles our groups opened up with mine. Could save you a lot of cash on reloading equipment or Gucci gear. Hope it helps, I know the feeling of stress over group size haha.

 

[6brshooter]

I don't care what anybody says, a factory barreled action from Remington or savage is a 3/4-1 moa. Yeah they do better sometimes but the 1/4-1/2 moa factory is usually not counting fliers or not really an ave, just the better groups are remembered . I always had good luck with 168 smk 44 gr varget. Played with oal on Remington308 before not much difference between10 thou off and 90 thou off, just run them as long as mag allows or get some alpha type 2 mags. I think part of ur problem is no level, with a tube forend stock the scope is mounted too high . When a scope is 3.5" above bore cant can ruin a group, even at 100. Get a level on it and a RB trigger set at 1.5-2 lb. Carry on

 

[JGorski]

I don't care what anybody says, a factory barreled action from Remington or savage is a 3/4-1 moa. Yeah they do better sometimes but the 1/4-1/2 moa factory is usually not counting fliers or not really an ave, just the better groups are remembered . I always had good luck with 168 smk 44 gr varget. Played with oal on Remington308 before not much difference between10 thou off and 90 thou off, just run them as long as mag allows or get some alpha type 2 mags. I think part of ur problem is no level, with a tube forend stock the scope is mounted too high . When a scope is 3.5" above bore cant can ruin a group, even at 100. Get a level on it and a RB trigger set at 1.5-2 lb. Carry on

Once I get the load that works best with CFE & 2000MR I'll have to see what kinda avg I get with mine, I know my previous load of 42-43grs RE15 is a screamer load for sure. Anything over a 1lb trigger is too heavy for me, I've got a whimpy fore finger I guess, lol

 

[6brshooter]

U must j, just ragged on u. I prefer1-1.5 lb on my field rifles and a couple oz on my BR rig. As a novice in rifles, i think the OP is better served with a crisp, clean 2 lb trigger than a 1.5oz jewell to learn on.

 

[danish1911]

Load development is key with the 700's. My 308 won't group better than moa at 100 yards under 2.875 col but once I played with seating depth with 175 gr. smk's at 2.925 col it's a consistent .5 moa with a couple .25 moa's. 175 gr. Berger VLD's will shoot .25 moa at 200 yards but are out at 3.006 col which won't feed from any mag. If you put in the time and be patient you'll have a shooter.

 

[JGorski]

U must j, just ragged on u. I prefer1-1.5 lb on my field rifles and a couple oz on my BR rig. As a novice in rifles, i think the OP is better served with a crisp, clean 2 lb trigger than a 1.5oz jewell to learn on.

All depends what the rifle is intended for, for hunting, 2lbs or so, BR in the ounces.

 

[Desert Fox]

U must j, just ragged on u. I prefer1-1.5 lb on my field rifles and a couple oz on my BR rig. As a novice in rifles, i think the OP is better served with a crisp, clean 2 lb trigger than a 1.5oz jewell to learn on.

+1

Find an older Remmy trigger, not that POS that came with your SPS. Have a Smith tune the trigger to around 1.5 lbs. Then develop load that will shoot well with your rifle and then practice, practice and practice some more. 308 is not finicky to load. You should not have problem finding a combination that will work on your rifle.

 

[Deadshot2]

Once I get the load that works best with CFE & 2000MR I'll have to see what kinda avg I get with mine, I know my previous load of 42-43grs RE15 is a screamer load for sure. Anything over a 1lb trigger is too heavy for me, I've got a whimpy fore finger I guess, lol

I just finished working up some loads using CFE223 and 175gr Nosler Custom Comps to shoot through my new 24" Benchmark barrel (.308). 45.9 gr of CFE223 in a Lapua case, using a CCI BR-2 primer and a 2.810" OAL. I got the following. Speed was 2737 fps, SD 6.7 fps, ES 16.2 fps, and Mean Average Deviation of 5.1 fps.

This is, in my estimation a MAX load for this bullet as the primers were absolutely flat. No cratering, hard bolt lift, or ejector marks, but the primers couldn't get any flatter without "oozing" out of the primer pocket.

One thing about the CFE223, you can get plenty of powder in a case to make them "whistle" but each person will need to decide for themselves how far they want to go.

In the same session I tried 47,1 grains and got 2823 fos but considering that's the speed posted for a max load of CFE223 with a 168 gr bullet I think I might just be a little high on the pressure. Group started to open up as well.

I'll probably use the 45.9 gr load for 1k distances (still supersonic at 1100 yards) but for closer range use something more easy on the brass.


FWIW, I just retired a 5-R Milspec barrel with over 10K rounds through it. The last 2K were with CFE223 and what they say about the copper fouling is true. There isn't any!

 

[Cncjerry]

Maybe I am missing something but you are getting sub MOA from a sub MOA gun. Going from .9 to .5 takes some work on form and gun.

On form I suggest you work on cheek weld and shoulder with a focus on consistency. Look for diagonal stringing which is usually cheek and vertical which could be load or shoulder. i found this out the expensive way.

I would swap the trigger first, a Jewell set really low. Once you see what a low trigger weight can do, back it up to hunting safe mode if that is your objective. My jewell set at 12oz helped tighten things up but then a good shooter can pull a 10lb crunchy POS better than me on my 12oz mouse.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I believe a field gun should have a substantial trigger weight for safety sake. My field guns are factory rifles with triggers I have never adjusted. If I were to specify a pull weight, I'd suggest 3lb as a minimum and prefer 4lb. My match rig is set up with about a 1-1.5lb trigger.

I learned most of my field carry skills as a Marine in Vietnam carrying an M-14, whose trigger weight was specified to be a minimum of 4 1/2lb. There's a reason for such a specification, and it's safety. Once that sear trips, there's no way of calling the bullet back. One of my best buddies was sitting down for a break during a patrol in Korea in 1968 when the soldier next to him blew his own brains out with an unintended discharge. You don't ever want to be anywhere near something like that.

My idea of a capable marksman is a shooter whose skills are flexible enough that they can reach the accuracy potential of most any rifle. When we hang our hats on rifles with special refinements, we also tend to make our skills dependent upon those improvements. I think that departs from my image of the capable marksman.

Greg

 

[JGorski]

I just finished working up some loads using CFE223 and 175gr Nosler Custom Comps to shoot through my new 24" Benchmark barrel (.308). 45.9 gr of CFE223 in a Lapua case, using a CCI BR-2 primer and a 2.810" OAL. I got the following. Speed was 2737 fps, SD 6.7 fps, ES 16.2 fps, and Mean Average Deviation of 5.1 fps.

This is, in my estimation a MAX load for this bullet as the primers were absolutely flat. No cratering, hard bolt lift, or ejector marks, but the primers couldn't get any flatter without "oozing" out of the primer pocket.

One thing about the CFE223, you can get plenty of powder in a case to make them "whistle" but each person will need to decide for themselves how far they want to go.

In the same session I tried 47,1 grains and got 2823 fos but considering that's the speed posted for a max load of CFE223 with a 168 gr bullet I think I might just be a little high on the pressure. Group started to open up as well.

!

Im getting 2726 from my 24" S/S 700 takeoff barrel with Rem brass and WLR primers and 47.3grs of 2000MR, I believe 2000MR is more suited to the heavier bullets than CFE is, the last time I checked Hornadys latest manual, 2000MR had a higher charge than CFE, and a higher velocity, too. Im getting very good accuracy and not one flattened primer or any other pressure sign with 2000MR.

 

[Niles Coyote]

from my 308 R700 tactical thread:
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...846-308-remington-tactical-work-progress.html

My best loads to date have been:
175 smk seated 2.825", varget 44.5g, Winchester brass and primer. 2546fps SD=14

168 A-Max seated 2.825, varget 45.8g, Winchester brass and primer. 2624fps SD=15

168 berger vld seated 2.815, varget 45.8, Lapua brass and Winchester primer. 2645fps

180smk seated at 2.825, varget 44.4g, Winchester brass and primer. 2530fps

 

[jaym_100]

I didn't read all of this so it might have already been said. Make sure you adjust the stock to fit you correctly, it will make a difference. I shot pretty good with my XLR for about a year, then finally set the stock to fit me. Now I'm shooting way more consistent with a lot fewer fliers. Also make sure and load the bipod consistently.