Is it still a .22 "trainer"?

[Mike_in_FL]

I ask this question looking from the outside at what's going on in this forum and matches with these various rifles. Let me preface this by saying yes, I want to own one of these 700 clone actions that can be mag fed. I just want to know if you're building a rifle to shoot like PRS or is a different animal entirely.

People said something to the effect that they wanted a .22 that emulated their centerfire match rifle. Ok, I get that. Something of similar weight, same scope (if possible parallax) same stock, etc. And I had always heard that shooting a .22 at 200 or 300 is like shooting XYZ at 1000. And I can understand that folks with the space are going to try this although this seemed to start off with trying just to see if it could be done.

What I don't understand is how things have morphed into matches, particularly for Average Joe. If I was going to build a .22 that feels the same as my other rifle to train with, this is what I'd like to do. I would setup a 25 yard range using barricades, roof top props, a swinging bench, tripod or whatever and I would shoot at approximately 1/2 or 1/4" targets using those positions. Or run rounds from prone using a bipod. I would try to emulate stages I had seen and practice my fundamentals. I would like to do this after I found CHEAP or CHEAPER ammo that I know will shoot in one hole at 25 yards. That's not hard to do from a bench for testing.

I understand that when you stretch out the distance you'll now have to deal with the wind. But is there a direct correlation to doping wind with a centerfire? Do you determine that you have an X mph .22?

I'm asking these questions as this was the end of the Berger No BS BC Part 3 Everyday Sniper podcast. Talking about the differences and questions people have been bringing up about what range to zero and BC. Hearing this discussion, it sounds like more of an ammo race, even worse than when someone asks about SD or why should I anneal in the reloading forum here.

I reload for my centerfire rifle. I feel like I get a better value buying a 40 cent bullet versus a 40 cent .22 cartridge. At least at this moment. If I spend this much on a .22 rifle and shoot matches will it correspond to my shooting in a centerfire PRS match?

 

[hlee]

I, personally, don’t see a direct correlation to centerfire matches. No recoil, no muzzle blast, and if the sun is right you can actually watch the bullet through your scope track to the target. There is no such thing as not seeing an impact due to recoil- even at 25 yards. Reading the wind at 100 yards (and in) is much easier than at 400-500 yards, so saying that shooting a 22 at x yards equals shooting a centerfire at y yards doesn’t hold up, for me. Even if a 5mph wind pushes your rimfire bullet around more than a 10 mph wind pushes a centerfire bullet, reading the wind at short range is so much easier than at longer ranges that wind calls are easier in a 22 match than they are in a centerfire match. At least they are for me. Anyone can dial an elevation turret based on a dope chart, and you can make one in any yardage increment that makes sense for your shooting- or you can let your kestrel create your firing solution on the spot. Laser range finders make all targets known distance targets, so the increased drop of a 22lr isn’t really a challenge. But, quality trigger time is quality trigger time, so shooting a 22 has to have some beneficial impact on centerfire shooting, but I would call it small.

As you say, NRL22- or similar matches- are something of an ammo race. And, a gear race. I’m a middling shooter at the local prs match- generally shooting 50-70% of the high score. But, I bought a Kidd super grade and Lapua center x ammunition and proceeded to shoot high score in 3 consecutive 22lr matches at the same venue- against some of the same shooters that were handing my ass to me at the centerfire matches. Fast forward a few months and everyone is shooting vudoo rifles and tenex or center x and I finishEd 20 something of 30 something at the last match I attended. The winner dropped 1, I dropped 11.

There was a thread in this forum a few months ago about re-thinking zero in a 22lr rifle, and treating it more like a centerfire. The thought process was that at 25 yards, the effect of wind on a 22lr is about the same as it is on a centerfire rifle at 100 yards. For those that only have access to outdoor ranges, zeroing at 25 yards would have less impact from wind than the more common 50 yard aero. There was another thread about creating a mph rating for 22lrs, like you have for centerfire rifles.

But, to the point about 22lr and matches and what/why/how, what started as a laid back way to introduce new shooters to the sport has morphed into a relatively high stakes format of it‘s own. When I started, just a couple of years ago, there were a couple of Kidds, a couple of Vudoos, a few CZs, and the rest were what I call “squirrel rifles” at our local match. There was exactly one non-vudoo rifle at the last match I shot, and it was mine. The match director slipped and called it ”a vudoo match...” It’s just the nature of the beast that these matches become more popular, then they become more competitive, then they become gear races. Reading the strife about “gamer plates” in NRL22 solidifies the arms race between match directors and shooters. Gamers gonna game, and top level competitors are going to employ any advantage they can.

The above notwithstanding, 22 matches are a fun way to spend 1/2 a day shooting with the kids. Center X ammo is about $11.50 for 50 which is substantially less than I can reload centerfire rifle cartridges.

Finally, a 1 moa gun is sufficient to clean the rimfire kyl target rack at 50 yards, even that 1/4” bastard on the end. If you find a lot of ammunition that shoots well in your gun, buy the whole lot...

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Gear and ammo races are subject to trickle down. What is cutting edge today and expensive becomes common place and cheap later- and available to everyone.

We had one person with a custom 40X modded to be a repeater 10 years ago. (The Moon GAP gun). How many repeaters do we have now?

Ammo is just now I think starting that trend.

PRS, PRS22, NRL are all games. Little and big PRS are related, but not the same. I think PRS22 stands on its own as a hoot to shoot.

Burn powder, ring steel and have fun.

 

[beetroot]

The elevation/wind drift doesn't need to scale for 22lr to be a useful trainer.
The appeal for me is I can go and shoot 100 rounds of suppressed 22lr for $10 at a 50yard range at home and not annoy any neighbours.

22lr is great because it's cheap, quiet, doesn't beat up targets, teaches you dialing for elevation and reading the wind and is great for leaning to build positions on barricades for positional shooting.
I can set myself a challenging course that requires me to accurately read the wind and dial my turrets for different targets within only 75-200yards.
Conversely I'd have to shoot my 260 out to 600yards for wind and elevation to become a significant factor.
The only thing you wont learn is recoil control but the idea isn't to replace your centrefire it's to supplement it.

I recently shot a centrefire match after having only shot 22lr for about 12 months prior.
I spent a few range sessions and maybe 30-40 rounds of 260 ammo to confirm my ballistic data and get used to the rifle and recoil again.
The match was only shooting out to 600yards and was a piece of piss, wind holds were practically non existent and dialing for elevation was nothing compared to 22lr at 200 yards.
The 2000-3000 rounds of 22lr I'd been shooting in the previous 12 months was worth a lot more than 500 rounds of 260 that I would've had to handload for the same cost.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

But is there a direct correlation to doping wind with a centerfire? Do you determine that you have an X mph .22?

Doping wind @ 300 yards with a 22LR will give similar drift in mils, with the same wind (4mph), as say a 308win will @ 1K yards. That is why they say there is a correlation.

However, rimfire isn't figured quite the same way when figuring the "mph" of your gun. You zero at 25 yards, and then figure the wind that gives you 0.1mil drift per 20 yards. So, figured this way, your rimfire might be a 6mph gun out to 300 yards.

Or...zero at 30 yards, and figure the wind that gives 0.1mil per 30 yards. That would make the same gun a 4mph gun.

Different ways to skin the same cat, but I find dividing distance by "20's" to be easier on my brain.

 

[accurate obsession]

The .22 matches are like all the games we play as the interest/competition grows so will the gear and the gamesmanship and that's not necessarily good or bad. Shooters will always be trying to eliminate variables, the first and easiest to eliminate are the gear and ammo, assuming the budget is there. The rimfire game is having some growing pains as hlee was talking about his experiences with NRL22, but I think they are the best way to bring in new and young shooters. The ranges don't have to be massive and half a state drive away and with base/open classes you can compete against similar gear. NRL22 has also created NRL22X this year to pull a lot of the pro-sponsored gear intensive shooters to matches more suited for them so hopefully standard NRL22 can keep some appeal to new shooters. I know for me personally the similarity of shooting style between PRS and NRL22 is a helpful training tool even though it isn't a 1:1 experience (recoil, distance,etc).

 

[motorcycleboy]

I don’t understand this post. Every form of shooting becomes competition. If you were going to train for prs, I would say you would want to make it as close to the dynamics of prs you can. The method you suggest would not. You need appropriate distances to have some ballistics to solve. Reading wind is reading wind. Obviously you have to use a different solution for all calibers and situations. Training. Shooting targets of appropriate size for the distance and props used would be more effective than tiny targets from 25 yards in my mind. Training. There is no ammo race in .22. That’s centerfire. The same stuff in .22 has been available for years. This isn’t the invention of shooting .22s past 100 yards.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Anyone who thinks they aren’t getting much training or benefits from their .22 is either not shooting it much or doing it wrong.

A trigger pull is a trigger pull. Its much easier to get 10,000 rounds a year or a Rimfire than center (and much cheaper).

It’s one of the best ways to train yourself to see trace in a centerfire. Focus on trying to watch your .22 bullet in the air. It’s similar to watching trace. And you get to do it without recoil to deal with.

Setting up a position is setting up a position.

Does it lack some things like recoil? Of course. But you don’t see professional athletes training with just one tool. They have several.

I have basically three training aides:

.22 for high volume practice
.308 for recoil management
Comp rifle 6mm flavor of week that I’ll practice with a week or few days before match to get back in tune with it.

Just like anything, if you don’t use the tool correctly, you’ll screw your self up. If I find myself backing off my .22 because I can free recoil it so easy.....then I run the .308 for a week.

So, it’s not just as simple as saying it’s the best trainer or not a good trainer. It’s a tool that has its uses just like everything else.

 

[Dthomas3523]

For the OP, if you can afford a vudoo, get one. Then just buy sk standard plus by the case. Don’t worry with lot or ammo testing. It will shoot it plenty good for training or to win a prs .22 match out to 300yds no problem.

10cent or so a round.

If you want to shoot bench rest or F class, you’ll want to send rifle to lapua and buy lots of center x or better ammo.

 

[sleeplz]

For the OP, if you can afford a vudoo, get one. Then just buy sk standard plus by the case. Don’t worry with lot or ammo testing. It will shoot it plenty good for training or to win a prs .22 match out to 300yds no problem.

10cent or so a round.

If you want to shoot bench rest or F class, you’ll want to send rifle to lapua and buy lots of center x or better ammo.

Will lapua true the action or something?

 

[Basher]

Will lapua true the action or something?

No, they test several lots of several of their offerings in your barreled action, then send you the results. You choose which loading/lot number you want, they then tell you who has it, you order it (at a decent price too, from what I hear). Boom, they just hand selected the best ammo for your BA.

 

[Mike_in_FL]

For the OP, if you can afford a vudoo, get one. Then just buy sk standard plus by the case. Don’t worry with lot or ammo testing. It will shoot it plenty good for training or to win a prs .22 match out to 300yds no problem.

That's actually what I was looking at, a Vudoo. But I have to budget so I decide on what I need sooner. I want to buy an Autotrickler and some flavor of annealer as well. I could use both of those now as there are no .22 matches near me that I know of.

Thanks for confirming about the SK Standard. That was the one hole at 25 yards I was referring to.

How do you see trace/bullet? Out farther than 100? Maybe because I'm usually on high magnification, like 24x, with my scope but bullets just seem to drop from the sky at 100 when I shot my 40x. It's 60 years old this month and I didn't opt to get the mag feed work done when it was available a few years ago.

 

[Mike_in_FL]

Anyone who thinks they aren’t getting much training or benefits from their .22 is either not shooting it much or doing it wrong. That's sort of why I'm asking. Understand I'm weighing the Pros vs. Cons. Cons are definitely $2.5k - 3k for 1 Trick Pony Rifle, plus scope, plus ammo. I'm trying to get those who do it, tell me if the training value is worth it.

A trigger pull is a trigger pull. I would agree about the trigger. .22s are tough when you don't follow through, especially if we're talking offhand although an air rifle is tougher still to me.

Its much easier to get 10,000 rounds a year At the ranges currently available to me, I would just be increasing my rate of fire to shoot more .22 than center. And it wouldn't be any kind of match or training other than offhand.

10,000 rounds Until you said SK Std, I'm thinking $4k for two cases of something like Eley. That's a new ZCO scope and a few hundred to spend.

 

[Memberberries]

Everything is a gear race and it's all just about excuses to partake.

Just kidding, the real answer is that I have a safe full of centerfire rifles and on a majority of days I find myself wanting to grab my suppressed 22 and go shoot the gongs out back. I only get to the 600yd range every month or so and I can shoot 300yds out back so I don't get as much from dialing 1 mil on my 308 and ignoring wind if it's not really stout. Probably 3 days a week I shoot rimfire, so I'm upgrading from a 597hb to a t1x to tighten up my groups and play with a bolt gun.

 

[beetroot]

You don't have to have an exact replica of your centrefire rifle to make use of a trainer.
As long as your rifle is reasonably accurate and you have a good dialable scope, any rifle will do.

My centrefires have always been Tikkas and I now have a T1x, previously I had a CZ452 American with a scope nothing like on my centrefire, yet the skills learn't from that were still transferable.
The #1 goal with a trainer should be a set up that allows you to shoot more than you currently do, whether that's due to cheaper ammo or more accessible ranges it doesn't really matter.
Getting the trainer to match your centrefire is just a luxury.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Balance point being the same is the most important part about a .22 trainer. You won’t mess yourself up moving with a 14lb .22 and a 22lb centerfire.

You will however have issues if you train with a rifle that balances substantially different. You’ll have to build different positions.

Next would be trigger feel. And possibly reticles.

Weight and barrel length are at the bottom of the list if they are even on the list.

 

[E. Bryant]

I ain't "training" for anything; that's just an excuse for spending $4k on a rimfire setup. Shooting accurate rifles is fun, and a rimfire can be fired more frequently than centerfire guns in my present circumstances.

 

[Hellbender]

If you want to get REALLY good, and stay there, you have to shoot, A LOT.
Getting into and out of position very quickly, trigger control, breathing, etc, etc can all be practiced at 100 yards and closer with a .22 without spending $1 per round on match ammo and all the time reloading.
To stay at the very top of most shooting games you need to shoot at least every couple of days, it is a very perishable skill. When I was hitting it hard, I shot 1/2 hour in the morning and another 1/2 hour in the evening 6-7 days a week starting 30 days before a big match.
If you have to physically THINK about ANYTHING but the wind you won't be in the winners circle....so you have get to a "no mind" state on ALL the basics and mechanics, and the only way to do that is repetition.
A .22 allows that...... shooting 15-25 cent per round ammo.

 

[motorcycleboy]

Shoot, shoot, and shoot some more. Shoot anything.

 

[munsonbw]

You didn't ask this on another forum already, did you? If that wasn't you, be aware this topic can turn into a dumpster fire pretty fast...

 

[Dthomas3523]

You didn't ask this on another forum already, did you? If that wasn't you, be aware this topic can turn into a dumpster fire pretty fast...

Thankfully I have an extinguisher.

 

[beetroot]

You didn't ask this on another forum already, did you? If that wasn't you, be aware this topic can turn into a dumpster fire pretty fast...

I don't know whats controversial about this topic, any trigger time behind a rifle that you are improving skills is training.
The whole 22 shoots becoming a gear race is no different than any other sport/hobby that starts as a bit of fun then gets competitive.

What may be a point of contention is how much you spend on a rifle but I firmly believe you could spend $500 on a rifle and train/shoot in such away that it improves your shooting with a big boy PRS rifle.

 

[munsonbw]

It probably had more to do with the op on the other forum I guess. It basically turned into a “your reason to call it a trainer is not valid” type discussion. A reason was given, then someone would say “that makes no sense”.

 

[beetroot]

It probably had more to do with the op on the other forum I guess. It basically turned into a “your reason to call it a trainer is not valid” type discussion. A reason was given, then someone would say “that makes no sense”.

If you are referring to the thread on accurateshooter, then yeah... dumpster fire....

If anyone has major concerns with 22lr events drifting into gear races, or the exact terminology/requirements for a 22 "trainer", remember the intent of a trainer is;
-provide a means to shoot more for less cost
-allow shooting/training/plinking on more accessible ranges
-practice the fundamentals of shooting that can be applied to all shooting disciplines

 

[Hoser]

I reload for my centerfire rifle. I feel like I get a better value buying a 40 cent bullet versus a 40 cent .22 cartridge. At least at this moment. If I spend this much on a .22 rifle and shoot matches will it correspond to my shooting in a centerfire PRS match?

Dont forget that 40 cent bullet has about 30-35 cent per bullet worth of barrel wear attached to it. This is assuming a 2,000 round barrel life and a total cost of around $700 for a new barrel. And another 10-15 cents for powder and another 3-5 cents for a primer. And for brass, maybe it averages out over the life of a case to another 7-10 cents. So your 40 cent bullet is essentially a buck a shot.

 

[beetroot]

Dont forget that 40 cent bullet has about 30-35 cent per bullet worth of barrel wear attached to it. This is assuming a 2,000 round barrel life and a total cost of around $700 for a new barrel. And another 10-15 cents for powder and another 3-5 cents for a primer. And for brass, maybe it averages out over the life of a case to another 7-10 cents. So your 40 cent bullet is essentially a buck a shot.

This is not something I've thought about.
I've easily shot 10k+ of 22lr over the last 2 years between 3 rifles.
That likely would've cost 3 new barrel for my 260, which would cost more that buying a CZ or T1x and mounting a good entry level-midrange scope.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I did the rough math in a thread a while back. It takes a couple years to make up the cost in a vudoo.

After that, the cost savings are ridiculous with the rimfire vs centerfire when you take ammo and barrel life into account.

 

[Dthomas3523]

But, if you don’t shoot a lot, you’re better off just practicing with your match rifle. Trainers are only cost saving if you shoot quite a bit.

 

[beetroot]

I did the rough math in a thread a while back. It takes a couple years to make up the cost in a vudoo.

After that, the cost savings are ridiculous with the rimfire vs centerfire when you take ammo and barrel life into account.

A Vudoo is the cream of the crop though, there are obviously lots of ways to do it cheaper and still get most of the benefits.
A CZ or Tikka is a obvious cheaper option that shoot great in their factor forms, you could also look at switching chassis/stock and scope between rifles if you use one rifle considerably more than the other.

In someways having a trainer that is not like your main rifle offers some additional benefits.
If you can successfully shoot a lightweight factor CZ American from barricades and other unorthodox positions, you will find shooting a 15lb PRS rifle a piece of cake. Granted you will still need to shoot your centrefire enough to be comfortable/proficient using it.

 

[beetroot]

But, if you don’t shoot a lot, you’re better off just practicing with your match rifle. Trainers are only cost saving if you shoot quite a bit.

Provided you have ready access to a suitable range.
Shooting in the wind and at targets of varying distances at 100-200yards with a 22lr offers more learning opportunities than a big centrefire that's effectively point and shoot out to 200yards.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I just think it's easy to convince yourself you 'NEED' to build an exact copy of your main rifle to get the benefits, when you definitely do not.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Provided you have ready access to a suitable range.
Shooting in the wind and at targets of varying distances at 100-200yards with a 22lr offers more learning opportunities than a big centrefire that's effectively point and shoot out to 200yards.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I just think it's easy to convince yourself you 'NEED' to build an exact copy of your main rifle to get the benefits, when you definitely do not.

You’ll need small targets and a berm with a .22

I’ve shot tens of thousands of rounds of 22 at 2-300yds. If you don’t have a good berm or something like a huge piece of cardboard, you’ll be chasing your tail and learning nothing.

Not to mention you won’t learn much about wind zones and gradients unless you are lucky enough to have the wind different 200yds away then it is where you are.

IMO, the best way to use a .22 for wind is 100-200yD .22 F-class targets. So you have to make perfect wind calls to make it into 10 ring.

 

[beetroot]

You’ll need small targets and a berm with a .22

I’ve shot tens of thousands of rounds of 22 at 2-300yds. If you don’t have a good berm or something like a huge piece of cardboard, you’ll be chasing your tail and learning nothing.

Not to mention you won’t learn much about wind zones and gradients unless you are lucky enough to have the wind different 200yds away then it is where you are.

IMO, the best way to use a .22 for wind is 100-200yD .22 F-class targets. So you have to make perfect wind calls to make it into 10 ring.

I live in a pretty windy place, the wind today goes anywhere from a gentle breeze to 15mph+ and back again within a minute.
Shooting a 2" plate at 100yds can be enough of a challenge, forcing you to adjust wind calls between every shot.

200-300 yards is getting a long way out for your typical trainer. I shoot majority CCI STD, over 200yds group size starts to become an issue.
What size targets are you usually going for at that range on a windy day? Whats a typically windy day for you?

I think these threads if nothing else show that a 22 training means different things to different people.
A '22 Trainer' may be the term for a scaled down version of your centrefire, and this may be the most beneficial way to train for shooting competitions but it doesn't mean that you can't shoot just any ol' 22 in a way that teaches you new things or improves your shooting in general.

Ultimately provided you're getting out shooting you have the opportunity to learning something.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I live in a pretty windy place, the wind today goes anywhere from a gentle breeze to 15mph+ and back again within a minute.
Shooting a 2" plate at 100yds can be enough of a challenge, forcing you to adjust wind calls between every shot.

200-300 yards is getting a long way out for your typical trainer. I shoot majority CCI STD, over 200yds group size starts to become an issue.
What size targets are you usually going for at that range on a windy day? Whats a typically windy day for you?

I think these threads if nothing else show that a 22 training means different things to different people.
A '22 Trainer' may be the term for a scaled down version of your centrefire, and this may be the most beneficial way to train for shooting competitions but it doesn't mean that you can't shoot just any ol' 22 in a way that teaches you new things or improves your shooting in general.

Ultimately provided you're getting out shooting you have the opportunity to learning something.

Most everyday is 15mph in south Texas. 2” at 100 isn’t that much of a challenge with my vudoo with sk standard.

And when it is a challenge, you’re not learning wind. As you’re chasing your tail trying to read a 2mph wind change without flags. Not applicable to PRS at all.

Going from 15mph to 10mph on a 2” plate, you can hold the edge and still have enough plate to make up the .5 or so difference in a wind call. Shrink it to paper 1” bull and now you’re in an area where you can take advantage of calling wind down to 2-5mph.

One has to be careful. While you can always be learning something you have to make sure you’re not developing a bad habit. Sometimes know when not to work on something is the learninf