Is it the Rifle, the Scope or me? (New results)

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tattoo13

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Minuteman
Jan 2, 2011
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Larkin, AR
#1
I have a Remington 700 in .308 1:10 twist, should be a pretty accurate rifle. Other with the same model are reporting consistantly sub 1" groups.
The scope is a Nikon Buckmaster 6-18x40, new on a EGW base and Burris XTR rings.
I am a pretty decent shot, I usually am good for 1.5" 10 shot groups at 100.
The story is the first time I shot the rifle the first few shots at 50 to get on paper seemed decent, I moved out to 100 and it really was inconsistant. I would get a couple close (within my 1.5") and then one off 4-5" then it may shoot close to the same place or back close to the original group, maybe inbetween.
I got pissed and put the rifle up.
Took it out again, and tried it a second time with similar results.
The first run was with a cheap box of Winchester 180gr. The second run was with a box of Black Hills Match 175gr.

So my plan is to try a few shots out of the box of Black Hills, with it on a sandbag instead of the bi-pod to eliminate the thought of the stock pressure throwing shots, then try some Hornady Match 172gr to see if it likes that. If it does the same thing I am going to mount a different scope on it and try again. If it does the same thing I guess it is the rifle or me.

Am I missing something here or does the collective have a suggestion?


PS here is the rifle:
img20110526230653.jpg
 
#2
Re: Is it the Rifle, the Scope or me?

Do you know someone else that can shoot rifles well? If so, let them have a go at it. Also re-check to make sure everything is tight (rings, base, etc).

If you can get some FGMM I would try that. I've had poor results with the .308 from BH in a couple of rifles but FGMM has always shot extremely well in anything.
 
#3
Re: Is it the Rifle, the Scope or me?

4-5" is alot. Mine was well with in an inch but it was in a B&C medalist, nightforce base, seekins rings and a super sniper. If you ever make it over to jonesboro I have an extra B&C laying around we can bolt it in and see if that helps.
 
#4
Re: Is it the Rifle, the Scope or me?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tattoo13</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So my plan is to try a few shots out of the box of Black Hills, with it on a sandbag instead of the bi-pod to eliminate the thought of the stock pressure throwing shots</div></div>

Report back on how that works out. I have the same rifle, and the hogue stock definitely sucks in that even the slightest amount of pressure causes the stock to make contact with the barrel. Not sure that would account for 4-5" though, thats quite a bit.
 
#5
Re: Is it the Rifle, the Scope or me?

Thanks for the offer!

I am planning on buying a stock for it, but I would like to know there is not something inherantly wrong with it before spending money on it.

I will look for some FGMM but it is not easy to find around here.

I have no problem with shooting other rifles but this is the largest caliber I have owned so far, though I do shoot a lot of clays with a 12 guage.
 
#7
Re: Is it the Rifle, the Scope or me?

Man it is really hard to say what could be causing this problem. I like your idea of using a more steady rest for now to try shooting again since the bipod takes some getting used to. I would sometimes get a flyer when using a bipod initially now I am pretty consistent (no expert marksman here guys). Let us know how it goes using the sandbag rest.
 
#8
Re: Is it the Rifle, the Scope or me?

The stock touching the barrel is an issue. Are you using a rest or bag for support under the butt of the rifle? If you are going to shoot factory ammo go with Federal Gold Medal Match, its the gold standard, if the rifle doesn't group well with that you won't fair any better with other factory stuff.

It may have to do with your shooting form. 1.5" at 100 sounds beginner to me. I'm not knocking ya, I'm not much better, but my rifle will produce .5" inch groups, or better, very consistently.

I got there by doing a lot of reading here, a lot of rounds down range for practice, a lot of crappy groups, and a lot of money spent on quality components and reloading equipment. My point is, I think you have several things conspiring against you producing the large groups. Some of it is probably the rifle, some of it may be the scope or mount, and some of it is probably you. You have been given good suggestions, give them a whirl and the source of your issue will become apparent.

I personally like the idea of having somebody you know thats a good shot give your rifle a run. If they can't drive it and get a decent bit of accuracy out of it, it points more at the rifle than you. The opposite is also true.

Rich
 
#9
Re: Is it the Rifle, the Scope or me?

I would try making sure the scope, mount and rings are all holding like they should... if your scope is not holding an accurate zero, the recoil could knock it off enough to move your shots 4-5" and more depending on how loose it's getting.

I had this same problem on a .22 actually with a real cheap scope, almost exact same symptoms.
 
#11
Re: Is it the Rifle, the Scope or me?

Ummmmmmm might have something to do with that 4" cheek weld you need to get behind the scope. Build yourself up a cheek rest and see if you get some consistency out of it. It's the cheapest fix as most of us have a roll of duct tape and stuff to put under it laying around.

Cheers,

Doc
 
#12
Re: Is it the Rifle, the Scope or me?

Like the others said check the scope and mounts. I had scope creep on my 22lr and it was frustrating. With scope walk, my POI would just creep down every so often. Sounds like your having grouping problems and not scope walk though.. It is definitely NOT the ammo. With rifle's these days they are super accurate. My out of the box savage groups .6-.9 good factory ammo, and the cheapest garbage ammo still groups around 1.5moa (ive tried silverbears,military surplus, and others and while they didn't feed nice they still grouped way better than 4-5moa).

Try moving the target in to either 50 or even 25 yards. I know your ego might not want to but it's much easier trying to hold steady on something thats 25 yards away. That way you can take you out of the equation as much as possible. Just dont forget, at 25 yards a group of .25 inches is 1MOA
 
#13
Re: Is it the Rifle, the Scope or me?

I started out with a Remington in a Hogue stock and I have to say that the stock touching the barrel is NOT an issue. I'd also say that you shouldn't rule out the ammo either. I know lots of people that have had good luck with BH ammo, but that result hasn't been universal. About the best and most consistent commercial ammo that you can get will be Federal Gold Medal Match. I'd suggest that you start with the basics. First, check to make sure that everything is tight and as it should be, then try again with some good ammo.

Of course, a 4" flyer is way out there and my knee jerk reaction on something like that would be that it's an equipment issue.
 
#14
Re: Is it the Rifle, the Scope or me?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I moved out to 100 and it really was inconsistant. I would get a couple close (within my 1.5") and then one off 4-5" then it may shoot close to the same place or back close to the original group, maybe inbetween.</div></div>It sounds like a bedding issue since the majority are grouping and then you get the occasional flier. Remington rifles in oem condition almost always need the stock properly bedded in order to be consistent shooters.
 
#16
Re: Is it the Rifle, the Scope or me?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doc76251</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ummmmmmm might have something to do with that 4" cheek weld you need to get behind the scope. Build yourself up a cheek rest and see if you get some consistency out of it. It's the cheapest fix as most of us have a roll of duct tape and stuff to put under it laying around.

Cheers,

Doc </div></div>

THIS!!!! that scope is high, if you don't have a consistent cheek weld, you wont get consistency on the other end.
 
#18
Re: Is it the Rifle, the Scope or me?

An inconsistent cheek weld is going to make it a little harder to make the shots, but I wouldn't imagine it making it so hard that he's getting 4.5" to 5" groups. Same with the contact between the rifle and the stock or the stock touching the barrel. If anything I'd say that it's the action screws or the base/rings not being tightened down properly.
 
#19
Re: Is it the Rifle, the Scope or me?

break it down in steps
1) Torque on the stock
2) Is the barrel floated
3) Is the base set right?
4) Are the rings right?
5) Is the torque on the rings right?
6) Is the scope set right?
7) Very long bipod. How stable is it?
8) Are you driving it right?
9) Has somebody watched you while you are driving it?
 
#20
Re: Is it the Rifle, the Scope or me?

+1 Chiller

there are several things I see making it hard for you or anyone to shoot this rifle well.
1st is the cheek weld , you need to raise your cheek piece, even if its just foam and ducktape for now. 2nd your bipod is very tall . Try using sandbags , but put the forward one just in front of the action to help compenste for the flimsy stock.
Do check ALL your screws .
 
#22
Re: Is it the Rifle, the Scope or me?

Thanks for all of the advice.
I know my shooting needs work, I figured though I should be able to shoot this rifle as well as I can shoot my others.

I know the scope looks high but it is in low XTR rings, not sure what I can do to drop it.
I really would like someone else to shot it to take the me factor out of it.
I really think it may be the scope, should know more tomorrow, when I am done testing.
 
#23
Re: Is it the Rifle, the Scope or me?

Back from the range and the answer is, it was a combination of me and the rifle and the bipod.
I did no scope adjustment, I just verified that the screws were tight. It was shooting a little low and right, but I can fix that later, I wanted the fewest variables possible.
I started with two five shot groups just like I have been shooting, and I was in the 7-8" group range. I was annoyed right off the bat.
I then took ten layers of duct tape and folded it in half and taped it to the stock to help with cheek weld, this group was much better than the first couple, still a huge group but it was an improvement:
img20110619133646.jpg


The next step was to take off the bipod and shoot off of a bag that was placed close to the action.
That resulted in this group, I have the flyer and that was all me I felt myself flinch BAD.
img20110619133659.jpg


It made it much easier to stay lined up behind the stock, and relax.
I also noticed I was flinching, this is my largest rifle yet, a .30-30 has been my hardest recoiling until this rifle. I shot more groups than these and a lot of them had fliers. I realized I was flinching and I could feel myself doing it, and the targets reflected it.
So I took the advice to relax between shots, I pulled out an ear plug sat up, and gave it 2-3 minutes between shots.
I shot this group and two more like it, slowing down helped with flinch, but there is still a lot of work to do on my part, but this is what I was hoping to start with:
img20110619133713.jpg


I had a box of Winchester Super X hunting ammo, the spread is mostly vertical. I am sure it is trigger control and me not taking my time.
The group on the top left is light grain Silver Bear, and the lower hit was a bad shot, I shot before my breath was all the way out, two are touching, one is to the left and one off paper:
img20110619133722.jpg


The last two groups I was getting tired and it showed, but the result is I am happy with the rifle and scope.
So next step is to restock it and work on my shooting. I have a .22 and a brick of match ammo that is calling my name.

Thanks for all the advice!!
 
#24
Re: Is it the Rifle, the Scope or me?

That Black Hills group is looking good. The Silver Bear is crazy how the group shifts up and left.

When working out your cheek weld, make sure you can rest your head and have no tension at all. You want to be able to hold that position all day without effort. Your bipod is pretty tall, so I'm guessing it was hard to get into a stable position even in the prone.

Work on trigger control at home with no ammo. Practice squeezing slowly and follow through with it- don't let off the trigger immediately after the shot. This should help with your flinching as you develop "muscle memory" and develop good habits.
 
#26
Re: Is it the Rifle, the Scope or me?

Working on that trigger, smoothing it out and lightening it up a bit, would probably help a lot too. When shooting for groups, I wouldn't even bother with any ammo that isn't specifically a match round, you'll get a lot of fliers and may think that it's you, when really it's just the deviation in the ammo.
 
#27
Re: Is it the Rifle, the Scope or me?

Another thing to think about is that I see a lot of people making one very specific mistake when using a bipod. The mistake I am referring to is holding the left hand on the left leg of the bipod when they shoot. The inconsistent pressure on the leg causes huge variables in the recoil pattern of the rifle.

I also agree that you need a shorter bipod for bench and prone shooting. The one you have is great for hunting coyotes but you are better off shooting from a rolled up towel or backpack if you want bench or prone shooting.
 
#28
Re: Is it the Rifle, the Scope or me?

What's your budget ? Get it piller bedded/free float the forearm ,maybe a after market trigger. I wouldn't be satisfied until 1/2 moa is achieved consistently.
 
#29
Re: Is it the Rifle, the Scope or me?

Its worth the money to get access to the online training here. The lessons on breathing and trigger control will do wonders for the consistency and accuracy of your groups.

You can buy a kit on brownells pretty cheap that you can use different size foam pads to build up the stock under a neoprene sleeve or just make your own with a cut up mouse pad and duct tape. Having your head in a consistent spot behind the rifle will help a lot.

It seems like you probably have a good bit of flex in your stock if you had that much of an improvement off a bag instead of the bipod. Start scraping pennies together for a HS Precision take off stock. They come up in the for sale forum all the time. That will help also. Watch Midway for good prices on cases of Federal Gold Medal Match, Southwest Ammo has ammo that performs as well for a buck a round if you buy a case of 200, but keep in mind that for a little more than the cost of a case of ammo you can buy most of what you need to reload. Then instead of paying $1-1.50 per round its more in the neighborhood of 0.55 cents and its taylor made for your rifle.

First things first though, get your stock weld squared away and keep an eye peeled for a HS Precision or Bell and Carlson stock in the for sale forum.

Rich

Edited to add - there is a B&C for sale right now, Brand new, 210.00

Bell & Carlson Stock
 
#30
Re: Is it the Rifle, the Scope or me?

Another question for you:

Do you know how to properly set parallax? Parallax could cause a serious problem as well, especially with your scope mounted so high causing inconsistent cheek-weld.
 
#31
Re: Is it the Rifle, the Scope or me?

The black hills group looked decent compared to the others. Pick up some good ammo, palmetto has fgmm 168 for 17.99/20 right now.

Double check all mounts and rings and make sure they are tight.

Shoot from a pack or sandbag as you did, and add a rear bag to help stabilize the rifle. The tall bipod with its mounting point and the flimsy stock are probably not helping any.

Lighten that trigger. Any idea what the pull weight is currently? When I started out I had more pronounced recoil anticipation and flinch with a heavier trigger, the trigger seemed unpredictable at my skill level and a heavy poundage (around 5#). I bought a new trigger and installed it and adjusted it around 2.5 and it helped quite a bit. I also found that shooting a 22lr as a warmup helped my flinching. I would usually shoot about 100 rounds of 22lr at 50, and then go to my 308. It helped a lot, and saved me money. I also noticed that after 40-50 rounds, my (me, not the rifle) accuracy diminished due to fatigue (probably leading to bad habits at that stage), so I would rest, or go shoot the 22 some more. It helped my fundamentals a lot.

Good luck and keep us updated!
 
#32
Re: Is it the Rifle, the Scope or me?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike Casselton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The mistake I am referring to is holding the left hand on the left leg of the bipod when they shoot. The inconsistent pressure on the leg causes huge variables in the recoil pattern of the rifle.</div></div>

I have officially ditched the bi-pod, but when I am shooting off of a rest, my off hand hold the back of the stock into my shoulder.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iron Worker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What's your budget ? Get it piller bedded/free float the forearm ,maybe a after market trigger. I wouldn't be satisfied until 1/2 moa is achieved consistently. </div></div>

My budget is very limited, three kids and a wife that goes to school, I am lucky I get to shoot at all!
I am saving my pennies for a better stock and I have bedded a stock before.
I agree I want to get to a 1/2 moa, but now that is more me than the rifle.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Its worth the money to get access to the online training here....

m.

Rich

Bell & Carlson Stock </div></div>

Lots of good advice Rich!
I do reload, but I have never reloaded .308, I have the dies and now I have brass so I am going to start reloading them.
As for the stock, I have seen a few come up but I am always a day late and dollar short. I finished a AR build last month and I need to get some money put up for a stock, but that is the next thing on my list!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Another question for you:

Do you know how to properly set parallax? Parallax could cause a serious problem as well, especially with your scope mounted so high causing inconsistent cheek-weld.</div></div>

Once I get settled in behind the scope I look left/right/up/down and watch for the reticle to move.
I don't think the scope is really that high, it is in low xtr rings and a EGW 20 moa base, is there something I can do to drop it?
 
#33
Re: Is it the Rifle, the Scope or me?

Not a whole lot you can do without swapping rings. Maybe your best solution could be an add-on check rest or stock pack? It seems really hard for me to get a consistent cheek weld when a scope is mounted that high. Sounds like you've got a descent concept of parallax correction.
 
#34
Re: Is it the Rifle, the Scope or me?

It looks like it's all coming down to two things, Form and trigger. That cheek weld is more important than you might think! If your body is not relaxed and in exactly the same postition for each shot you will see marked changes in the POI. If the trigger is even a tiny bit funky (moves a little, catches then moves a bit again before firing or is too heavy on the pull then again you will actually change body position to compensate for the trigger problems and the group suffers. Remember, even a poor quality gun will often out shoot the shooter. Settle down, get the good cheek weld, stop anticipating the noise and recoil and then those groups will tighten right up.
 
#35
Re: Is it the Rifle, the Scope or me?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not a whole lot you can do without swapping rings. Maybe your best solution could be an add-on check rest or stock pack? It seems really hard for me to get a consistent cheek weld when a scope is mounted that high. Sounds like you've got a descent concept of parallax correction. </div></div>
This leads back to my original question. Does cheek weld matter if your scope was set to be parallax free? Seem's to me parallax free means exactly that you can look from any angle and it will be same POA.
 
#37
Re: Is it the Rifle, the Scope or me?

You're asking the right questions. You don't have to (but you very easily can) spend a fortune finding the answers.

Speaking for myself, I discovered that the more comfortable I am on the rifle, the better I shoot. And I mean all-around comfortable. I experimented, cheaply, with fitting the stock to my body.

1. If the stock is too short or too long, my arms just don't seem to go where they feel right. uncomfortable = bad shooting
2. If the rifle is too high off the ground when shooting prone, there is pressure on my back that is very uncomfortable = bad shooting.
3. If the rifle is too low to the ground, my head is not upright enough and I have to constantly strain my neck forward and upwards to try to align my eye with the scope. Very uncomfortable = bad shooting.
4. If the scope is mounted to far forward and the eye box is in the wrong place, I have to stretch my neck to get into the eye box. This sucks astronomically = bad shooting.
5. If the scope is mounted to far back I have to compress my neck to back my eye off to get it into the eye box = neck pain very quickly = bad shooting.
6. If the scope is mounted too high I've got nothing to rest my cheek on to get consistent eye placement = bad shooting, plus I'm constantly holding my head up instead of resting it = neck pain = bad shooting.

It took me awhile to find something that worked.

I experimented by incrementally adding length to the stock to get it where it felt right (the old adage about gripping the pistol grip on the stock and the butt falling into the inside of your elbow and just touching your bicep proved to be correct).

Once I got the length right (and did some dry firing) I started adjusting the height of the bipod (your bipod shown is way way too high). Once I got that right I started playing with cheek rests. Buy a cheapo strapon cheek rest that you can open up and add or remove material, or just cut pieces of flexible foam and use medical tape to tape them on the comb. Remember, we're not winning any beauty contests here, we're trying to learn something. Build it up until it feels right. Your cheek on the rifle, the rifle level with the ground, your eye aligned level with the scope, your arms comfortable, <span style="font-weight: bold">no pressure on your neck or in your back</span>.

Then, move the scope forward or backward until your eye is centered in the eye box. Finally, level the scope. Now, amaze yourself at how you can lay on the rifle for a half hour or more and not be tired, strained, in any kind of pain, no cramps; you can actually be comfortable on the rifle. You could freaking nap there if you wanted to.

THEN go shoot it.
 
#39
Re: Is it the Rifle, the Scope or me?

+1 Chiller's remarks, free float, bedding, lighten the trigger and make sure you have a good rest. Then it is back to the fundamentals... concentrate on breathing and take your time. TRY not to anticipate the shot. Run some dry fire drills...
 
#41
Re: Is it the Rifle, the Scope or me?

Load length.

If you handload, that is. If not, then what? FGMM? It doesn't help that Remington makes these ridiculous lawyer-proof 1/4" freebore chambers. That much jump (like 10x what it ought to be) can't help accuracy.
 
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