Is it worth doing an AI with the .223?

[Money Waster]

So, I’ve got a barreled action sitting in the corner because I cannibalized the chassis, trigger and scope to put together my Vudoo about a year and a half ago. The barrel is a 26” Bartlein M24 contour in 8 twist, and it’s chambered in .223 Rem. I also have a Defiance Deviant action with both .223 and .308 bolts. I’ve had the action for about 4 years at this point and never got around to building anything on it as I went through a divorce shortly after getting it, and life changes that come along with that kind of event put me in a bind financially. I’m at the point where I’m ready to do something with the action, and I am thinking about mounting the .223 barrel onto the Deviant action, and at the same time having a 6 mm or 6.5 barrel chambered to have a switch barrel rig. I assume that this will require some fine tuning on the lathe to time the .223 barrel stamp markings and achieve the desired headspace. My thought was, if
I’m going to incur that expense, I may as well try to get some performance gains in the process. This leads me to the question about going with a .223 AI chambering. Will I see a significant gain in MV shooting 75-80 gn. bullets out of a 25” -26” barrel? What can I expect in terms of MV if I go this route?

Lou

 

[Campguy308]

I have a 223AI with 2400 rounds on it. I don't think it's a "better" 223, but it's a cooler 223.

I'm running an 80 eldm at 2950. A long throated standard 223 could probably hit that. Mine shoots lights out, but fire forming sucks.

If you like to fiddle with different stuff for minimal gain, go AI. if you don't, go 223.

I'm undecided on this for my next one, but leaning straight 223.

 

[sgtsmmiii]

I have a 223AI with 2400 rounds on it. I don't think it's a "better" 223, but it's a cooler 223.

I'm running an 80 eldm at 2950. A long throated standard 223 could probably hit that. Mine shoots lights out, but fire forming sucks.

If you like to fiddle with different stuff for minimal gain, go AI. if you don't, go 223.

I'm undecided on this for my next one, but leaning straight 223.

Pretty much my thoughts, exactly.

 

[cjgemm]

Fire forming sucks a lot less then trimming...

 

[DIBBS]

Fire forming sucks a lot less then trimming...

^^^^^ THIS^^^ My experience has been with 3 Ackleys 223AI, 22-250 AI, and 243 AI, that fireforming loads can be extremely accurate and used for hunting or whatever. Yes slightly less performance, but no unnecessary barrel wear. Cartridge case length actually shrinks when fireforming, and Ackley cases very seldom need to be trimmed because of the design.

Depending on barrel length and projectile weigh, I would estimate you should see a velocity increase in the .223AI of 100-200 fps, provided it is throated reasonably long as to not impede powder capacity, but still function in your magazines. I think my load in the AI has a COL of 2.4 something... when rebarreling I will have that lengthened out a bit.

 

[Newbie2020]

@Money Waster are you saying buying bolt actions in general cause divorce or Defiance actions in particular?

 

[Money Waster]

@Money Waster are you saying buying bolt actions in general cause divorce or Defiance actions in particular?

I wouldn’t say that the Defiance action had anything to do with the divorce. I hid those expenses pretty well lol.

 

[Money Waster]

^^^^^ THIS^^^ My experience has been with 3 Ackleys 223AI, 22-250 AI, and 243 AI, that fireforming loads can be extremely accurate and used for hunting or whatever. Yes slightly less performance, but no unnecessary barrel wear. Cartridge case length actually shrinks when fireforming, and Ackley cases very seldom need to be trimmed because of the design.

Depending on barrel length and projectile weigh, I would estimate you should see a velocity increase in the .223AI of 100-200 fps, provided it is throated reasonably long as to not impede powder capacity, but still function in your magazines. I think my load in the AI has a COL of 2.4 something... when rebarreling I will have that lengthened out a bit.

Yep, I hate trimming also. This is an appeal for me.

 

[Newbie2020]

A critical survival skill set. Nicely done.

 

[RogueTanker]

I never got that idea about the fireforming issue, especially with .223 to ackley.

I took LC 55gr and did a bunch of short range training. At the end of the day I had 400 pieces of formed brass and good training.

Now I haven't had to trim for who knows how long. Plus you can push those 88s too if you really want to take advantage of the extra capacity.

 

[Campguy308]

I never got that idea about the fireforming issue, especially with .223 to ackley.

I took LC 55gr and did a bunch of short range training. At the end of the day I had 400 pieces of formed brass and good training.

Now I haven't had to trim for who knows how long. Plus you can push those 88s too if you really want to take advantage of the extra capacity.

Yeah its a good opportunity for training, but it's still fire forming. It ain't 223AI until then. Also, when I FF, my brass shortens, and they aren't all the same length

 

[RogueTanker]

I feel like that really doesn't matter.

Here's my load in my barrel with 2'5-3k rounds, LC16 brass I have never trimmed.

Low SD and superb accuracy. (Top group)

 

[FCS]

223 AI doesn’t gain enough to warrant the extra cost of dies IMHO.
Properly configured freebore w/straight 223 yields 2950+ w/80s.
223AI is cooler, chicks dig it and you gain 0.25” on your pecker.

I’d suggest a straight 223 w/appropriate amount of freebore. You’ll be about 2.550, from memory, which feeds fine from AICS type 223 mags.

 

[RogueTanker]

223 AI doesn’t gain enough to warrant the extra cost of dies IMHO.
Properly configured freebore w/straight 223 yields 2950+ w/80s.
223AI is cooler, chicks dig it and you gain 0.25” on your pecker.

I’d suggest a straight 223 w/appropriate amount of freebore. You’ll be about 2.550, from memory, which feeds fine from AICS type 223 mags.

See above post with pic. With lee dies that didn't cost anything extra. Everyone always is going for that little extra. Why not get an extra 100fps for essentially no extra cost

Mags work just the same too.

 

[Campguy308]

223 AI doesn’t gain enough to warrant the extra cost of dies IMHO.
Properly configured freebore w/straight 223 yields 2950+ w/80s.
223AI is cooler, chicks dig it and you gain 0.25” on your pecker.

I’d suggest a straight 223 w/appropriate amount of freebore. You’ll be about 2.550, from memory, which feeds fine from AICS type 223 mags.

Your points are noted, but I use a standard 223 Lee collet die and seater for my AI. I do own a Redding 223AI body die. Also, I like hot chicks.

 

[FCS]

Your points are noted, but I use a standard 223 Lee collet die and seater for my AI. I do own a Redding 223AI body die. Also, I like hot chicks.

 

[Money Waster]

223AI is cooler, chicks dig it and you gain 0.25” on your pecker.

That’s +3 on the pros that I certainly wouldn’t pass by, particularly the extra 1/4” lol.

 

[FCS]

Quick, easy, guidance / answers here at SH.

 

[Money Waster]

Depends on what you want to do with it. If you just want to reload in large quantities and accept the 223 for what it is ...do the simplicity of the 223. If you're the type of guy thats going to be always trying to stuff the highest bc bullet in there and blowing out webs bc you're never happy with the current velocity, go AI.

I load 75gr BTHPs in LC brass using 23.5gr 8208. I'm getting 2930 with a 26" barrel. It costs me $.24 a loaded round and I load 1000 at a time. If you don't have a 650 and bullet feeder and want to turn a 223 into a small-batch, organic, high BC, grain-fed, Lapua brass, gluten free, 6BR little brother...do the AI.

BTW, your screen name under the post title is hilarious

Reubenski, I actually don’t like to push brass too hard, generally loading to about 85-90% max pressure, which is why I like the idea of the AI. I get a little more case volume which may allow me to hit the next velocity node while still at a reasonable pressure. That’s the hope anyway. I’ll be shooting 75 or 80 gn projectiles.

Lou

 

[Hoser]

I have a few 223 Ackleys. Both gas and bolt guns.

With a long throat and 26-27 gns of Varget I push 80 Sierras from 3,000-3,100 fps and the brass is fine.

They also feed perfect from plastic AI mags.

For gas guns, I can push 55s stupid fast. Coyotes and 55gn Ballistic tips dont get along.

My Terminus 223. Shooting small plates at a grand. Minimal recoil and noise.

 

[Dai Bando]

Love the .223AI

Lately I've been forming brass with Lever and 88's @ 2,680 fps out of a 21" bbl

Formed cases net 2,750 with 88's and 3,090 with the 75 ELD's

 

[Shootin Stuff]

If you hand load then go AI as there is no reason not to.

They feed fine through mags.

Std 223 neck/seater dies work, AI fl dies are available from several manufacturers.

Almost no case trimming required once formed.

FF uses completely standard 223 brass (no special case prep or other BS required to FF).

FF powder loads are usually towards the upper end of std 223 powder charges and are still accurate anyway so use them for positional practise or just go out hunting and pop out formed AI cases, it’s not the “hassle of an extra step” some make it out to be at all and you aren’t “wasting” barrel life forming.

I think of it as rather than gaining extra velocity over a std 223 the AI allows you to MAINTAIN that velocity with a heavier projectile, which is still a win.

You also get extra street cred, extra half inch of pecker length and chicks dig AI’s.

 

[Bradu]

I never got that idea about the fireforming issue, especially with .223 to ackley.

I took LC 55gr and did a bunch of short range training. At the end of the day I had 400 pieces of formed brass and good training.

Now I haven't had to trim for who knows how long. Plus you can push those 88s too if you really want to take advantage of the extra capacity.

I never understood it either. You go out and enjoy a day shooting a standard 223 round and you're done. I didn't even do load development for the 300 rounds I loaded and it easily shot sub moa at 500 yards. Majority of people that losd don't recommend final load development until after you fire form even when you aren't improving the cartridge so how is it any different

 

[BrienM]

Well, I was in the school of straight 223- anti 223 AI... then I read this. Now I'm thinking the 223AI might be worth it. I never liked the idea of fireforming brass. Yesterday however we were practicing some PRS stuff and like @RogueTanker says, would have been a great time to fireform while we were practicing off barricades. It is an extra step for sure but would definitely be a little extra velocity possibility ...

 

[Shootin Stuff]

Well, I was in the school of straight 223- anti 223 AI... then I read this. Now I'm thinking the 223AI might be worth it. I never liked the idea of fireforming brass. Yesterday however we were practicing some PRS stuff and like @RogueTanker says, would have been a great time to fireform while we were practicing off barricades. It is an extra step for sure but would definitely be a little extra velocity possibility ...

It’s not an extra step man, just load up std 223 brass and pop out AI cases. It really is that simple.

 

[Evlshnngns]

I have a rem varmint barrel that never shot well, .8 moa after 250 rounds. I want to make it an ai for fire forming, and a fresh chamber might help it.

 

[Campguy308]

@PAYDIRT says that dudes that shoot 223AI in Choate stocks are super badass and hot chicks dig them.

 

[RogueTanker]

It’s not an extra step man, just load up std 223 brass and pop out AI cases. It really is that simple.

More than likely they're talking about the fact they habe to shoot the round before they get to the fireformed case. This adding an extra step.

You can't simply take virgin brass and load it. For me it's a non issue as I pretty much only use lake city brass in the form of loaded ammo. Not necessarily match grade, but plenty good for me practicing.

In my 22" barrel, I'm pushing 88's at 2800+. You can buy a flat of 3500 88s for about $610 from brownells. Comes out to less than 18¢/bullet. Loaded ammo on my single stage for accuracy or loaded with TAC on my progressive produces loads I can really train with and not have to stay in my garage for hours at a time.

Best part for me, is brass is the most abundant and cheapest part. And should I really need to shoot 5.56 in a pinch, well that's not an issue either.

 

[Campguy308]

More than likely they're talking about the fact they habe to shoot the round before they get to the fireformed case. This adding an extra step.

You can't simply take virgin brass and load it. For me it's a non issue as I pretty much only use lake city brass in the form of loaded ammo. Not necessarily match grade, but plenty good for me practicing.

In my 22" barrel, I'm pushing 88's at 2800+. You can buy a flat of 3500 88s for about $610 from brownells. Comes out to less than 18¢/bullet. Loaded ammo on my single stage for accuracy or loaded with TAC on my progressive produces loads I can really train with and not have to stay in my garage for hours at a time.

Best part for me, is brass is the most abundant and cheapest part. And should I really need to shoot 5.56 in a pinch, well that's not an issue either.

What kind of free bore do you have for 88s?

 

[RogueTanker]

What kind of free bore do you have for 88s?

I can measure, but long? I have the accurate mag 223 mag with the front lip filed off to longer COAL.

 

[Money Waster]

I’ll tell you what guys, you’ve convinced me to do the AI. I think it will give me what I’m looking for, and how could I pass up the potential for a 1/4”-1/2” increase in my pecker length. It’s a win:win!

Lou

 

[Campguy308]

I don't really think anyone can be criticized for going either route here. Just make sure you get enough freebore for the heavies. For example, the standard Manson 223AI reamer only has .025 freebore. I have used this freebore for 80s, but it eats up powder space. After 2400 rounds, it's starting to get longer and I can seat out further.

 

[Campguy308]

The wylde chamber is pretty good and it allows plenty of room for 75 ELDM's. You still have to trim the plastic out of 223 accurate mag when you're 40 thou off the lands. The added benefit of the Wylde chamber is when you develop a solid, non-niche load its more likely to work well in your gas guns as well.

Yeah but he's going AI.

 

[PAYDIRT]

@PAYDIRT says that dudes that shoot 223AI in Choate stocks are super badass and hot chicks dig them.

Don't forget the SWFA, thats what really gets them digging your chili.

 

[Campguy308]

That's important to you isn't it

Well, I was just pointing out to get the proper freebore.

 

[Dai Bando]

Well, details and stuff.

.223AI kicks the .223’s ass pretty good in a bolt gun.

Throw in AICS mags and it really becomes a no brainer.

75’s @ 3,100

88’s @ 2,750

40’s @ 4,000 +

50’s @ 3,700+

Long throat .223 not so much

 

[Bradu]

@PAYDIRT says that dudes that shoot 223AI in Choate stocks are super badass and hot chicks dig them.

Well fuck, I need to get dump the whiskey 3 and get a choate stock

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

I drank the koolaid and went 223AI.

Fireform loads are super accurate and the final loads are fast and accurate.

The fastest that I have pushed the 80 VLD is 2,868fps with 26.1 grains of Varget.

After getting a taste of 223AI I went to 22Creedmoor and that thing is a whole new level of 22Cal moving fast and heavy.

Also shooting the 243AI and well.

223AI is a gateway cartridge.

 

[Shootin Stuff]

You can't simply take virgin brass and load it.

Care to explain why? I am not aware of any additional steps required that you wouldn’t do as part of your normal virgin brass prep/QC checks for a standard chambering anyway?

 

[RogueTanker]

Care to explain why? I am not aware of any additional steps required that you wouldn’t do as part of your normal virgin brass prep/QC checks for a standard chambering anyway?

What I was meaning to say was that there is no factory virgin 223 ackley brass available.

So you have to load 223 brass and shoot it for fire forming.

Thus this introduces an extra step, as it is typically regarded as too stressful on the brass for a full power ackley load in a non fireformed case.

But a lot of people regard Virgin brass of an sort a no no for comps as the formed brass picks up a bit of extra capacity

 

[trophyhunter]

I went 223AI in an AI
Does that count as a yes ?

 

[Potsy]

I was cramming 73ELD's balls deep into .223 cases last night for a ladder test out of my AR. Then I read this thread and thought I would offer an unsolicited and inexperienced (yet completely free!) opinion.

When I did my .22BR, a .223 AI and a .223 Vanilla were also on the list, I had such a hard time making up my mind that I ordered both a .308 and .223 bolt heads for my Origin. I REALLY wanted 88's at 3,000fps out of a 24" barrel without leaning on it TOO hard. So, I went .22BR. If you run the numbers with that bullet at 2,800 (like, out of a .223AI with a 24" barrel), it will really piss you off. There's about another 1.1-1.2 mills of elevation at 1,000 yards, and a couple tenths of wind. Still supersonic to 1,200. That's it as far as differences that I can find (this was on Berger's calculator, at 1800' ASL). I'm still in love with my BR, but either iteration of the .223 will get remarkably close to it, real world.

Back to cramming bullets into cases to fit into AR mags (and these were ASC's!), the .223 case changes personalities when ran in a bolt gun with enough mag room and throat to seat the bullet out. The shoulder on a .223 case is only around .350", and when you cram a .224 bullet in the middle of it, deep, it REALLY eats powder room. Much more so that cramming a bullet deeply into a wider (.308) case. My opinion is that the .223 gains as much or more capacity from seating the bullet out than taking out what little taper the case has and changing the shoulder angle. Based solely on volume gained solely on improving the case, I had a hard time figuring out where the AI version grants more than another 50-60fps, all other factors being equal (and they rarely are).

The biggest game changer for the .223, AI, or other .22 centerfires in general has more to do with high BC bullets than capacity. I don't know that it would be worth fretting if we were talking about 55 grain Hornady blue noses (though it's a great bullet, for it's intended purposes). It's worth noting that stubby bullets don't eat up nearly as much case capacity to begin with.

I think a lot of the remarkable speeds that I've read regarding the AI version have more to do with leaning on the powder charge more that any large increase in capacity or magical case design/efficiency. Of course, your putting a little case into a great big bolt action, so load away. How soon the primers fall out and the headstamp disappears is strictly a matter of personal choice. I do think that the Ackley version does give a bit more ceiling on top end, what would be a very hot load in a .223 would be a BIT milder in the AI.

Bear in mind, a whole lot of what I just typed is based on what I've read and studied and not what I've done. My .223 loading and shooting has primarily been with my AR. A different animal entirely.

If I ever do spin a barrel up and use that .223 bolt head that's still sitting in the Bighorn box, I'll likely do an AI. Fireforming is, uh, just, shooting, so I'm not fretting that. It's not like using up barrel life is a big issue either way. One might want to work up a fireforming load that crams the bullet into the lands for a consistent form.

The AI is a dead sexy beast, and I could well use the extra .25". Well, my wife could. I'm getting to old to care one way or the other.......

 

[celltech]

Turn it into a .22-250 and then you can throw those 80s at 3250+

 

[ohiofarmer]

What I was meaning to say was that there is no factory virgin 223 ackley brass available.

So you have to load 223 brass and shoot it for fire forming.

Thus this introduces an extra step, as it is typically regarded as too stressful on the brass for a full power ackley load in a non fireformed case.

But a lot of people regard Virgin brass of an sort a no no for comps as the formed brass picks up a bit of extra capacity

RCC offers virgin brass in 223AI... but I doubt few are willing to pay for it when the standard route is so simple and painless.

 

[ohiofarmer]

RCC?

RCC machined brass

 

[Money Waster]

I drank the koolaid and went 223AI.

Fireform loads are super accurate and the final loads are fast and accurate.

The fastest that I have pushed the 80 VLD is 2,868fps with 26.1 grains of Varget.

After getting a taste of 223AI I went to 22Creedmoor and that thing is a whole new level of 22Cal moving fast and heavy.

Also shooting the 243AI and well.

223AI is a gateway cartridge.

DevilDocAZ,

You sound like a version of me 5 years from now. I like to try new things every 8-16 months to keep it interesting. I got a Vudoo, shot it for a year, developed some skill then started shooting .22 lr AR pistols at steel plates just to change it up. Yeah, I’d love to be a kick ass PRS style shooter. I do positional shooting once in a while, but I don’t have the discipline to train and train and train on just one thing. I like to become somewhat competent and then check out something else that the shooting world has to offer.

Large capacity .224 rounds do sound cool, as does a .243 AI. I may do a 7mm-08AI one of these days “just because”. Too many things to try and not enough time!

Lou

 

[RogueTanker]

DevilDocAZ,

You sound like a version of me 5 years from now. I like to try new things every 8-16 months to keep it interesting. I got a Vudoo, shot it for a year, developed some skill then started shooting .22 lr AR pistols at steel plates just to change it up. Yeah, I’d love to be a kick ass PRS style shooter. I do positional shooting once in a while, but I don’t have the discipline to train and train and train on just one thing. I like to become somewhat competent and then check out something else that the shooting world has to offer.

Large capacity .224 rounds do sound cool, as does a .243 AI. I may do a 7mm-08AI one of these days “just because”. Too many things to try and not enough time!

Lou

I'm totally a Ackley fan. 7/08 Ackley is the tits, shooting 162s at 2800+, the 280 Ackley is even better shooting 180s at 2900 and the 223 ackley shooting 88s at 2800+... Well it's a superb little round.

 

[OLD308]

Ackley or ackleyish is almost standard for my rifles, but not my .223. Had Beanland Custom Rifles (Jon is great) built one last year. You just don't get enough benefit to me to justify the little but extra effort. A .223 case modified or not is only going to do so much. I shot 80.5 Bergers and it's a dream. No regrets for not improving the case. Hope this helps.

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

DevilDocAZ,

You sound like a version of me 5 years from now. I like to try new things every 8-16 months to keep it interesting. I got a Vudoo, shot it for a year, developed some skill then started shooting .22 lr AR pistols at steel plates just to change it up. Yeah, I’d love to be a kick ass PRS style shooter. I do positional shooting once in a while, but I don’t have the discipline to train and train and train on just one thing. I like to become somewhat competent and then check out something else that the shooting world has to offer.

Large capacity .224 rounds do sound cool, as does a .243 AI. I may do a 7mm-08AI one of these days “just because”. Too many things to try and not enough time!

Lou

If you already reload you are more than 1/2 way there. If you are not reloading right now you have a choice to make. Do it now and hope you can find the right powder, primers, projos or wait it out till things get back in stock.

Everything is better when it’s “improved” it’s in the name.

 

[Money Waster]

If you already reload you are more than 1/2 way there. If you are not reloading right now you have a choice to make. Do it now and hope you can find the right powder, primers, projos or wait it out till things get back in stock.

Everything is better when it’s “improved” it’s in the name.

Yeah, I reload. I’m not worried about it. I’m sitting on 16 lbs of Varget currently, so I think I’d be covered.

Lou