Is Lapua 170gr Lock Base ammo used by British snipers (L96A1)?

[Random Guy]

Months ago I bought 400 Lapua 170 grain Lock Base bullets, and for Father's Day I bought a batch of new Lapua 308W brass (large primer). I think the 170 Lock Base bullet has a G1 BC of 0.525, so its supposedly a good long-range bullet. In additon, last week I purchased on gunbroker a single box of the discontinued 'Lapua 170 Lock Base HPS' ammo. According to these specs, it has a velocity of 2820 fps at the muzzle(!). https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1001859049

That is really hot ammo, and I have heard that the ammo that the British used with the L96A1 sniper rifle is also very hot ammo, and that it uses (or used) the same 170 Lapua bullet.

Looking at the Lapua reloading manual (4th Edition), it lists the 'accuracy load' as the max load of Viht N140: 45.5 grains at 2734 fps. The only faster ammo listed was 50.1 grains (compressed) of Viht N550, with velocity listed at 2896 fps(!). Ouch. This loading data suggests to me that the British L96A1 sniper ammo - if it is indeed loaded in Lapua brass with the 170 gr Lock Base bullet and some sort of Viht powder - might involve a heavy charge of Viht N550, somewhere in the upper 40s (ie 48,x to 49.x grains). That is my best guess.

So, here's my question: Does anyone know anything about the British L96A1 (7.62 NATO) sniper ammo, and what components might be used, if it is Lapua-based ammo? Not sure I want to handload something that hot, and I only have Viht N140 powder, and not any of the N550 powder, but I was curious about this subject. Any insights are greatly appreciated.

 

[Random Guy]

Well, I learned last night that only the British SAS guys were issued the Lapua ammo, but they didn't know anything about the powder (not surprisingly).
So it will remain an enigma for now...

 

[Morris297]

A couple years too late, but anyway, I found this van while perusing a surplus store.

It’s an M2A1 can of Lapua HPS 7.62x51 with an Australian NSN, and shipping address to Australia’s largest (known) ammo storage facility. This would obviously indicate that Australian snipers are issued this ammo, or at least have it to choose from. I also found a reference to the HPS ammo in an online PDF of an Australian Defence Force international shooting competition where it stated that all snipers, including internationals, would be issued Lapua HPS ammo for this competition. It would also point to being off-the-shelf ammo and not any special loading seeing as it’s 220 rounds in 11 cardboard cartons and they occupy a full M2A1 sized tin.
There also appears to be a redacted line of information on the can.

To speculate on your question, it’s confirmed that Australian snipers use the HPS bullet, so it would be feasible that the British use it as well.

I wonder if Australian DMR rifles use this ammo, regular F4 ball ammo or a third type….

 

[Random Guy]

Neat ammo can. Wish I could find one here in the US as a display item. The powder charge for that ammo is still a mystery.

 

[Winchester M70 Van Orden]

Hello altogether,

I detected this thread just recently. By the way I bought for testing in one of my rifles quite a lot of different factory ammo in .308 Win. The Lapua B476 Lock Base HPS, 170 grs FMJ is also "part of the party". I let delaborate it and it had an powdercharge of 44,9 gr. His semi-auto-variant had one of only around 40,9 gr.

As far as I remember.

 

[Random Guy]

I let delaborate it and it had an powdercharge of 44,9 gr

Ok, so that ammo has 44.9 grains of powder? Looking at the VihtaVuori book, that charge weight could be N140, M540, N150 or maybe N550.
The only Viht powder that could provide 860 m/s velocity (2820 fps) would appear to N550. However, you'd need more than 44.9 grains of N550 to reach that velocity. So it's still an enigma. One of my shooting buddie's suggested 44.0 grains (w/ military brass) or 44.5 grains (w/ commercial brass) of Varget with the 170 grain Lockbase bullet.

 

[VargmatII]

As a random add;
I got some 170 Lockbase to try in my Sako TRG 22 about 2 years ago. I only tried it with Norma 203B (Reloader 15), went up to 43.5 grain charge weight but they never shot that great, so I stopped shooting them.
Last year I got another box on the cheap and planned to revisit them with N140 instead, I never got around to it with the TRG. But I ended upp shooting them in my Norinco SVD (7,62x53R) where they worked out as well as can be expected at around 1.5 MOA at 100 and 300 meters.

So, I think they like a good amount of speed, and I think that they like a 1:10 twist barrel. But thats just my small findings.

 

[Random Guy]

Thanks for that info. I went through 100 of the 170gr Lockbase bullets and never got a good recipe. I still have 300 left, so hoping to find something that works. You might be right about the speed preference, as I was loading very moderate loads. Just wish I could find out what the factory 'heavy mojo' ammo used for powder type. I have some N140 and N150, but re-loading data with this bullet is very spare. Varget is what I'll use for my next batch.

 

[VargmatII]

Thanks for that info. I went through 100 of the 170gr Lockbase bullets and never got a good recipe. I still have 300 left, so hoping to find something that works. You might be right about the speed preference, as I was loading very moderate loads. Just wish I could find out what the factory 'heavy mojo' ammo used for powder type. I have some N140 and N150, but re-loading data with this bullet is very spare. Varget is what I'll use for my next batch.

In the TRG they shot better and better as I went up in charge weight. But never really really good. I could easily outshoot them with Scenar L 175 so that was my go to bullet with that rifle.
I think that you should look into some of the N500 series of powders to get the speed up.
Did you ever try VV:S listed accuracy load with N140? It might just work?!

 

[Winchester M70 Van Orden]

Ok, so that ammo has 44.9 grains of powder? Looking at the VihtaVuori book, that charge weight could be N140, M540, N150 or maybe N550.
The only Viht powder that could provide 860 m/s velocity (2820 fps) would appear to N550. However, you'd need more than 44.9 grains of N550 to reach that velocity. So it's still an enigma. One of my shooting buddie's suggested 44.0 grains (w/ military brass) or 44.5 grains (w/ commercial brass) of Varget with the 170 grain Lockbase bullet.

Yes, it seems so. But possibly this production-quality can vary, too, as with other factory-ammo.. Unfortunately.. .
The type of powder here is unknown to me as well. The reasons for it we all know already..

Vargmattl: that's interesting, your shooting with the Sako TRG 22. She has a 26-inch-Barrel, true ? Because I could try out the B476-Semi-Auto-Sibling-Round also in a long barrel.. . An 27,5-inch-er.. This round is not developed for a repeater and this barrel-type, for sure. I choosed it as some kind of a"joker" to complete the other cartridges and was excited about his performance.
It reached 799-812 m/s, clearly more than this 744 m/s for an 24-incher. With an Standard-Deviation from 3,7 to 8,1 m/s. And shot - considering my"very very average-targeting" - quite well, I think. A surprise..
Was a bit in a hurry to produce several MV-Data + shot patterns, that's why.

What i still can add: there is this Lapua-Round mentioned, too: At Castboolits; the Thread is Ishapore308.The Link is missed, sadly. Australian Army Snipers use or used the Lock Base 170 gr HPS as an Service-Ammo.

If the British do the same, what about their 155 gr-Sniper-Ammo then ?.. Hmmm..

 

[lash]

As already alluded to, very often factory and especially military loads use proprietary powders not available to the general public.

 

[VargmatII]

Yes, it seems so. But possibly this production-quality can vary, too, as with other factory-ammo.. Unfortunately.. .
The type of powder here is unknown to me as well. The reasons for it we all know already..

Vargmattl: that's interesting, your shooting with the Sako TRG 22. She has a 26-inch-Barrel, true ? Because I could try out the B476-Semi-Auto-Sibling-Round also in a long barrel.. . An 27,5-inch-er.. This round is not developed for a repeater and this barrel-type, for sure. I choosed it as some kind of a"joker" to complete the other cartridges and was excited about his performance.
It reached 799-812 m/s, clearly more than this 744 m/s for an 24-incher. With an Standard-Deviation from 3,7 to 8,1 m/s. And shot - considering my"very very average-targeting" - quite well, I think. A surprise..
Was a bit in a hurry to produce several MV-Data + shot patterns, that's why.

Yes, the TRG had the factory 26" 1:11 twist barrel and the Norinco SVD has a 24,5" 1:10 twist barrel. I have not shot either with a cronograph but I would guess that the load for the TRG should be right around 800ms (2630 fps) and the SVD around 820 ms (2700 fps).

It is not easy to shoot super tight groups with a 4x optic like what is on the SVD so the 1.5-2 MOA that I can shoot with it on pretty much any given day is what I consider good, and it is within the spec of what the rifle should be capable of.

Next range trip I plan to shoot some Scenar L 175 grain in the SVD. They have given me accurate results out to 1100 meters (1200 yards) with the TRG, so I am confident that they should perform quite well in the SVD too.

 

[OkieMike]

As already alluded to, very often factory and especially military loads use proprietary powders not available to the general public.

This ^^^

Manufacturers can order powder tailored in all sorts of ways... kernel size, burn rate modifiers, etc... And they have all the eggheads and test equipment to concoct blends of different powders that are safe to load in their ammo.

They have vastly more control over the variables than the average reloader has at their disposal.

Mike

 

[Winchester M70 Van Orden]

Vargmatll: 800 m/s or 2630 f/s MV in the Sako, Hmm..
That seems to be a bit low to me, considering this 26-inch-Barrel.. Once this HPS-Load had am MV of 845 m/s, later 860 m/s resp. 2772 f/s and 2869 f/s.
A strong load, once a D476 damaged an Lee-Enfield L42 A1, it seems. In this case its is Imagineable.. .
What about the optic on your Sako ?..

 

[VargmatII]

Vargmatll: 800 m/s or 2630 f/s MV in the Sako, Hmm..
That seems to be a bit low to me, considering this 26-inch-Barrel.. Once this HPS-Load had am MV of 845 m/s, later 860 m/s resp. 2772 f/s and 2869 f/s.
A strong load, once a D476 damaged an Lee-Enfield L42 A1, it seems. In this case its is Imagineable.. .
What about the optic on your Sako ?..

Yes, it was low. I never took that bullet or load to its limit in that rifle. Never got around to it and there really was no real point to do it either. I had 7-800 Scenar L 175 grain which shoot amazing in that rifle. It was more a curiousity thing.

I ran my Schmidt PM2 5-25x56, why do you ask?

 

[Winchester M70 Van Orden]

Ah, I see. A clear better round is at hand.. .Probably once the Lapua 175 gr Scenar i have to try out too..
The optics on your Sako: i asked because of the aiming-comfort, compared with the SVD- Telescope. I choosed the B476 in a similar way and their range according to Hornadys Ballistic-Calculator with this average 807 m/s is impressing 800 Meters. Still in Hypersonic-Velocity.

Yes the manufacturers have their own secret powder-recipe for any load in their offerings and blend the powders in their very own style. An intransparent production.

 

[VargmatII]

Ah, I see. A clear better round is at hand.. .Probably once the Lapua 175 gr Scenar i have to try out too..
The optics on your Sako: i asked because of the aiming-comfort, compared with the SVD- Telescope. I choosed the B476 in a similar way and their range according to Hornadys Ballistic-Calculator with this average 807 m/s is impressing 800 Meters. Still in Hypersonic-Velocity.

Yes the manufacturers have their own secret powder-recipe for any load in their offerings and blend the powders in their very own style. An intransparent production.

Ah, Yes. Huge difference to be behind the Schmidt and the 4x on the SVD. So that is absolutely a factor.
Scenar L 175 gave me a first round hit at 1100 meters a few summers back. I am a big fan of that bullet.

 

[Winchester M70 Van Orden]

Two quite different scopes, yes.. That's why I asked. The Scenar is an interesting bullet - the 185 gr-Variant or GB 432 worked well in my Sniper Rifle.

Beside of all this having said, the page for British Military Small Arms Ammo mentions several 7,62 mm-Variants, used by them during the years:
https://sites.google.com/site/britmilammo/7-62mm/7-62mm-nato-ball

Some of them have been at least partially produced outside of GB, for example this Lapua 185 gr Sniper-Load. Therefore it seems to be possible that Lapuas B476-Lock Base 170 gr-Load, too, is well known to the British Army.. . I wonder for this definitely answer..

 

[Winchester M70 Van Orden]

One of the 185 grs Scenar-Shot-Patterns (GB 432) from my rifle

 

[Winchester M70 Van Orden]

Thanks for that info. I went through 100 of the 170gr Lockbase bullets and never got a good recipe. I still have 300 left, so hoping to find something that works. You might be right about the speed preference, as I was loading very moderate loads. Just wish I could find out what the factory 'heavy mojo' ammo used for powder type. I have some N140 and N150, but re-loading data with this bullet is very spare. Varget is what I'll use for my next batch.

That's what would be probably our next best step.. Varget f.e., yes. To try to reach the Catalogue-MV of this 860 m/s with another powdertype beside N550.
What about a 5-shot-group during your first tries ?..

 

[Random Guy]

VihtaVuori's accuracy load with the 170grain Lockbase is listed as 45.5 grains of N140, which is also their MAX charge weight, so I'll work up a load starting at 44.0 grains, and I'll try Varget at 44.0 too. Max velocity listed as 2696 fps (822 m/s), so that is a more moderate load than the military-based HPS factory ammo.

 

[aam]

This was from the Lapua web site a number of years ago.
Please take note of the test barrel length for the 170 LB.

I'm using Varget powder 43.3 grains,
@ 2700 fps. This was tested at 35 Celsius.
With slight flattening of the primer.

I just went to the Lapua web and they have revised the data for the 170 LB, link below.
Hope this info helps in some way.

.308 Win. / 11.0 g (170 gr) Lock Base

We supply the world’s best selection of .308 Win tactical cartridges that include the Lock Base FMJBT, Scenar OTM, AP and other cartridge types for various tactical implementations. Our .308 Win.

www.lapua.com

 

[Winchester M70 Van Orden]

An interesting info, aam

This test barrel length has changed to 660 mm on the newer website.. .

I'm now going through all my test results.. I have been testing several loads, match loads plus other styles.. .

Maybe there is an additional info possible, in the end.. .

Yes, Random Guy. 822 m/s is a bit low for this load, especially in combination with a maximum powdercharge.. . Hmm