Is my barrel shot?

[sachsmart]

After a few months I took out my Sons CZ457 Precision Varmint trainer. It used to group sub MOA but started throwing fliers and shooting really big groups. Checked bore thru a scope and saw brass filings. Cleaned it and shot it again with different ammo and it did the same thing. 5” groups at 50yrds. Checked the bore again and see brass shavings and pitting.
It has about 1500 rounds not enough to shoot out a barrel. Confused to what the issue might be

Thanks in advance

 

[cas6969]

It’s obvious why , look how blurry the rifling is.

 

[sachsmart]

Surprised it went so fast. One year old

 

[b6graham]

you're like 1% into the barrel life of a 22LR

figure out why it's shaving brass off the case and getting into chamber

unless it's coming off crap plated bullets?

 

[justin amateur]

I see yellow particles but not sure if brass.
possibly burn residue from the powder.
Check y'er extracted brasss for scratches or chips as b6 recommended.

Check all the fasteners for correct torque.
Might have a screw or two loose.

 

[sachsmart]

you're like 1% into the barrel life of a 22LR

figure out why it's shaving brass off the case and getting into chamber

unless it's coming off crap plated bullets?

My son dry fired it a bit before I told him not to, but not sure that was enough to cause damage. I will check the barrel screws

I shot SK

 

[Shoots 700's]

Its just getting broken in. You have another issue. Ammo, loose something???

 

[sachsmart]

I see yellow particles but not sure if brass.
possibly burn residue from the powder.
Check y'er extracted brasss for scratches or chips as b6 recommended.

Check all the fasteners for correct torque.
Might have a screw or two loose.

Yes will check the barrel screws and will check the shot brass

 

[Shoots 700's]

what kind of scope and mount?

 

[sachsmart]

what kind of scope and mount?

Seekins with Vortex Razor.

 

[sachsmart]

Its just getting broken in. You have another issue. Ammo, loose something???

I shot SK Ammo. I will make sure everything is tightened and try again

 

[littlepod]

If he dry fired it and shouldn't have, the firing pin could've chipped which would lead to inconsistent ignition, which would lead to shit groups.

 

[sachsmart]

If he dry fired it and shouldn't have, the firing pin could've chipped which would lead to inconsistent ignition, which would lead to shit groups.

I will check the strike points

 

[tsovern]

Thats primer material. Did you check for a c ring when you had the scope in there?

 

[sachsmart]

Thats primer material. Did you check for a c ring when you had the scope in there?

No C ring. Bore was pretty clean except for what you see in the pics

 

[sachsmart]

I will check the strike points

Strike points intact

 

[tsovern]

Could be several things, but at this point I would be playing w action screws. If you can tune it back in by manipulating those, then you know it needs bedded.
Edit to add: To answer the original question; your barrel isn't shot, its one of the other million 22lr idiosyncrasies.

 

[J_D]

Thats not uncommon. Give it a good cleaning, it's pretty likely not copper unless you shoot anything other than lead?

 

[grauhanen]

It's unlikely that there's brass in the bore. If it is in fact brass, where's it coming from? The only brass is the casing, which can't get into the bore.

It's quite possible there's debris from the "cleaning" still remaining in the bore.

Regarding why the rifle is giving 5" groups, follow justin amateur suggestion to check action and barrel screws for correct torque. Loose barrel retention screws can wreck havoc with performance.

 

[tsovern]

Its primer material.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Not mentioned but if you are using a suppressor, it may need a good cleaning. When ours collects gunk, accuracy goes south in a hurry.

 

[J_D]

5 inches at 50yds is way way out. I'd start with action screws, scope mount, barrel grub screws, etc.... That isn't just a fouled barrel.

 

[HenryRed]

Yellow is powder residue.
Look at the chamber for the carbon ring.
This will cause first round fliers in PRS. This will start as first round of match then turns into first round of stage. Also check crown for issues.
Picture is carbon ring. Sometimes you can see lead from bullet on ring.

 

[sachsmart]

Thats not uncommon. Give it a good cleaning, it's pretty likely not copper unless you shoot anything other than lead?

It was cleaned nicely. Will tighten down everything and check again

 

[sachsmart]

Not mentioned but if you are using a suppressor, it may need a good cleaning. When ours collects gunk, accuracy goes south in a hurry.

Jersey so not suppressed.

 

[sachsmart]

5 inches at 50yds is way way out. I'd start with action screws, scope mount, barrel grub screws, etc.... That isn't just a fouled barrel.

Checked the scope mount & base. Will check action screws & barrel

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Check the scope. I had one go bad (turret needed to be rebuilt, which factory did at no cost) gun back on track.

After checking everything listed, I found the problem replacing current with an older, proven scope. Rifle went back to shooting. After new scope was repaired, good to go.

 

[iceng]

The barrel is barely broken in.

STOP CLEANING IT. Go put 200 rounds through it, without checking your group size or fliers every 0.5 shots and enjoy it.

It will come back.

 

[accurate obsession]

New CZ, appx 1500 rounds, shooting SK ammo.
The barrel is not "shot out", it could possibly be damaged from very inappropriate cleaning practices, but probably not.

CZ bores are a little tighter than other manufacturers, at 1500 rounds you probably just have a carbon ring damaging the bullet.

Dry firing isn't an issue with a new CZ.

Sub moa to 5" groups, SK ammo (all the same SK?) Different lots or different varieties ( match, SA, HV match) could change things dramatically.

And of course you're checking for loose anything or maybe the scope just decided to shit, so many things can happen.

 

[grauhanen]

CZ bores are a little tighter than other manufacturers

CZ bores are by law made to meet CIP specifications, so they cannot be tighter than bores made by manufacturers in other CIP member countries. This includes rifles made in Finland, such as Tikka, and rifles made in Germany.

CIP specs for bore dimensions are "tighter" than bores made to SAAMI specs. SAAMI spec rifles are generally factory produced rifles made in North America.

For a comparison of CIP and SAAMI specs, consult the CZ-produced chart below. Note that measurements are in millimeters.

 

[accurate obsession]

CIP specs for bore dimensions are "tighter" than bores made to SAAMI specs. SAAMI spec rifles are generally factory produced rifles made in North America.

Ok, that explains the experience here in North America when the .22 cal rod you clean the Ruger with will drag in the bore of the CZ necessitating a .20 cal rod.

 

[Shoots 700's]

What is your cleaning process. Sounds like its to frequent or incorrect

 

[spamassassin]

You clean it when it stops feeding. It's a .22lr not a .69cal black powder rifle. Modern guns shooting non-corrosive modern smokeless ammo do not need to be cleaned after every use or even every year. Semi-auto 22's need cleaned lightly and only when there's so much carbon that they won't feed anymore. My match rifle, anschutz 54, has probably 10,000 rounds since it's last serious cleaning. I swab the chamber out and clean the breech face every few hundred shots just to avoid fail to fire and sticky extraction.

 

[Shoots 700's]

I run a patch of kroil down my Vudoo barrel and thats it. Follow it up with a dry patch and keep shooting.

 

[b6graham]

You're are ruining that gun. Match grade rifles need frequent cleaning especially since it's the dirty round of .22lr. If you let your guns go that long you either don't like your guns or just lazy. Br shooters clean after every card and there's a very good reason for that.

and there's also very good reasons to never fully clean a 22 as well. just cause BR does it doesn't mean it's right...just old

 

[grauhanen]

and there's also very good reasons to never fully clean a 22 as well. just cause BR does it doesn't mean it's right...just old

What are some of those "very good reasons" to never clean?

 

[Shoots 700's]

they never shoot good stripped. Shoot it some and run a patch of kroil follow up with-dry and keep shooting, although i have never seen anything shoot that bad

 

[sachsmart]

Thanks for all the helpful replies.

I have thoroughly tightened everything to spec from barrel screws, action screws to scope mount.

For those asking- I clean this 22 after 300-400 rounds, unless I change ammo. Bore tech rimfire blend & dry patches. There is no carbon ring.

Last season we shot about 5 rimfire PRS/MARS matches. The rifle shoots single hole & shot very well. Did not get to shoot too much rimfire this year as I was busy with my PRS matches.

Scope is a fairly new Vortex razor Gen 2. Looks solid and tracked very well.

So its not the Ammo, probably not the scope (but you never know), not the cleaning.

I will find out tomorrow at the range if something was loose.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

I'd swap scopes just to see and double check for a carbon ring and inspect the muzzle crown meticulously. Chamber a round or two and carefully remove and inspect those as well.

If it shot as well as you said before and not now for no obvious reason except a scope swap, I'm betting on the new scope and or rings/mount being the culprit.

 

[sachsmart]

I'd swap scopes just to see and double check for a carbon ring and inspect the muzzle crown meticulously. Chamber a round or two and carefully remove and inspect those as well.

If it shot as well as you said before and not now for no obvious reason except a scope swap, I'm betting on the new scope and or rings/mount being the culprit.

If it doesn’t shoot tomorrow, will do a scope swap.

 

[Williwaw]

What are some of those "very good reasons" to never clean?

Your going to get the extra 2 minutes for being the instigator!

 

[iceng]

22lr match ammo, or almost all 22lr ammo come oily, greasy or waxy.

Did you know the coating is a lubricant, which is matched to the shore hardness of the lead. When people talk about "seasoning" a 22lr barrel, its about the bullet leaving a thin layer of said lubricant to the next projectile to ride along. It can take upwards of 25 rounds to "become properly seasoned", which is where it is depositing as much lube as it is pushing out.


Do a full scrub / clean of a 22lr barrel. Go shoot 50 rounds over a chronograph. Plot each round on a chart. Report bwck your findings.

Benchrest shooters, and fclass, want to shoot their barrel under the same, repeatsble conditions. Thus, their conditions which can be easily reproduced, are cold/clean.

Do the full clean test in winter then summer. I say this because temperature effect wax / lube.

 

[iceng]

No, the most accurate people on the planet want Consistency.

If the barrel is always in a clean state when they shoot, it will be consistent. It means they can plan on it each match.

Our club 22 (stainless cz452) has over 100,000 rounds thru it. Have a guess how often we clean it, and guess how well it shoots ?

Im not claiming its a record breaking gun, but it does certainly shoot real well, enough to give some of the top end brands a real hard time.

My last centre fire barrel went 1700 rounds before i cleaned it. I reguarly go 1000 to 1200 rounds between cleaning on centre fire.

 

[krw]

When I was shooting IR50/50, I would give my Lilja bbled Sako a really good bbl scrubbing once a year

 

[b6graham]

I will bet money on how well it shoots or how well it doesn't shoot. It won't be competitive that's for sure. What you consider accurate may not be the same for me. You guys think cause it shoots 1/4" groups that's accurate. Our guns have to shoot a 1/8" group consistently to just be competitive .you won't achieve that level of accuracy with a dirty gun. You can sit here and come up with a million excuses as to why you don't clean that's fine, you won't win at a top level though and that's what we all strive for top level performance. Guys will argue no matter what even if you're wrong lmao

you're not on a rimfire BR forum and your 'standards' aren't necessary or even attainable/reasonable in what the majority of shooters on here use their rifles for

 

[Shoots 700's]

I will bet money on how well it shoots or how well it doesn't shoot. It won't be competitive that's for sure. What you consider accurate may not be the same for me. You guys think cause it shoots 1/4" groups that's accurate. Our guns have to shoot a 1/8" group consistently to just be competitive .you won't achieve that level of accuracy with a dirty gun. You can sit here and come up with a million excuses as to why you don't clean that's fine, you won't win at a top level though and that's what we all strive for top level performance. Guys will argue no matter what even if you're wrong lmao

You clearly don't know anything about rimfire

 

[littlesister]

You clearly don't know anything about rimfire

I have to say you're absolutely wrong about TUrbo2. He does know remfire and yes he is a benchrest shooter as am I. Have nothing against The other shooting disciplines. They look like fun, but it's not for me. I only shoot off a bench for accuracy and have probably been doing it longer than a lot of shooters on this forum have been alive! The accuracy level we enjoy today can be contributed to 50yd/meters benchrest shooters and the Gunsmith who build these guns. Accuracy is accuracy no matter what Shooting discipline you enjoy. The better it shoots at 50 yds. the better it will shoot down range! If there was a better cleaning technique other than the one being used in 50yd benchrest they would be using it. As to the OP, I have know idea what has happened to Sachsmarts CZ . Nor does anyone else!

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

If you shot it then it is indeed shot.

/close thread

 

[accurate obsession]

Rimfire cleaning black magic and secret sauce.
Love it!!

 

[sachsmart]

Well, we will file this under the many unsolved mysteries of the universe.

After taking the rifle apart (did not remove the barrel) and putting everything back to spec torque (nothing seemed loose per say) I went back to the range today.

I first shot CCI, the groups were bigger but much smaller than my previous outing. There were fewer fliers and the fliers were not too outrageous like before. I shot about 150 rounds and the group progressively got smaller.

Switched to SK, shot about 30 rounds so the wax from the SK gets evenly distributed and then zeroed. The accuracy is back to what it was before & the fliers are gone.

I have cleaned the gun before using the same components and method; it did not affect the accuracy like this. Possibly a combination of a few things but I am glad its in good shape again so we can shoot another rimfire match for the season.

Thanks for all the helpful advice