I'm a long range target newbie. I've got a Begara 6.5 CM rifle. After a few months of practice and some lessons, I'm routinely hitting at 800 yds. My long-term personal goal is to hit 2M. Looking at my Kestrel BC it says I need 142 Mils of elevation adjustment for that shot. My Athlon 4-29x56 scope gives me 30 Mils. I have a 20 Mil scope mount. I bought an Ivy Adjustable Scope Mount that gives me 60. So, 60+30+20 gives me 110 Mils...so I'm 32-Mils (32 x 3.6 in=115 inches) short? So, I need to make that up using my base starting point, a hold over, etc.? Is my basic thinking logically correct?
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Is my thinking right on additional elevation needed for 2M shot?
- Thread starter rogerg12
- Start date
Two miles? 6.5 Creedmoor?
I wouldn't worry about figuring your mils for a two mile shot with 6.5. Learn all you can from it, then pick a suitable two mile caliber.
I wouldn't worry about figuring your mils for a two mile shot with 6.5. Learn all you can from it, then pick a suitable two mile caliber.
It’s doable if you hade perfect conditions for spotting but it won’t be easy.
Spotting will be the toughest challenge
Even spotting for my 7mm magnum was a challenge at two miles with a lot better speed, BC and mass.
It needed 75-79 mils depending on conditions.
You might consider a Charlie tarac as you’ll gain a bit of height over bore as well as elevation because with that much elevation your barrel will be an issue probably.
Also most running that much elevation are probably running an Offet like the Charlie delta.
Really I’d just stretch out your 6.5 out to maybe 2000 ish and get some experience then build something bigger
Mighty Mouse 260 and some more appropriate 2 mile options
Spotting will be the toughest challenge
Even spotting for my 7mm magnum was a challenge at two miles with a lot better speed, BC and mass.
It needed 75-79 mils depending on conditions.
You might consider a Charlie tarac as you’ll gain a bit of height over bore as well as elevation because with that much elevation your barrel will be an issue probably.
Also most running that much elevation are probably running an Offet like the Charlie delta.
Really I’d just stretch out your 6.5 out to maybe 2000 ish and get some experience then build something bigger
Mighty Mouse 260 and some more appropriate 2 mile options
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I've got a CHARLIE Tarac on the way. Should be here soon. I've also got a Serbu 50 cal 50-A, which is supposed to be fairly accurate. But I'm still learning, and still going slowly with the 6.5CM. I know it goes subsonic well before 2M. Right now I'm having a very hard time seeing my shots at 1000yds...which is a big part of the problem of why I'm doing OK at 800yrds, but not getting beyond yet. But I'm hoping my new shot cameras will help, as well as, shooting earlier at 1000yrds so that the mirages don't obscure the targets so much that I can't see where the bullets hit at all. It's all a learning process.
I think steelhead and forgevalley pretty much covered it already. Something I wanted to add…
Your 20 mil scope mount only allows you to use more of your available internal elevation and shouldn’t be considered part of your total elevation. Basically, you have a 100yd zero and your available elevation is what you can dial in the turret plus what you can adjust in your Ivy mount. Your Charlie is what will get you the elevation you need.
With regard to shot cameras, I haven’t found them to be very useful. They are designed (at least the ones I’ve used) to sit close to the target so you can see your bullet holes on paper. If you set the camera back further for a wide field of view, it goes out of focus. We went so far as to open up the Longshot housing and replace the camera with a wide angle camera with adjustable lens and it works ok. We eventually tossed it aside and now rely on forward observers and a 115mm Swaro spotter.
The two biggest factors for spotting shots seem to be soil conditions and bullet weight. The heavier the bullet and more “powdery” the soil is, the easier to spot.
I’ve made hundreds of hits to 1 mile with my 6.5CM but that’s about all it can do. I wouldn’t even bother with wasting ammo at 2 miles with it. 50cal is also not ideal for ELR either. Poke around here and read up on 375s, 408s, and 416s if you are serious about ELR. Find a place with loose dirt for a backdrop and experienced shooters that make those shots on a regular basis and you’ll be on in no time as long as you’re shooting the proper caliber.
Your 20 mil scope mount only allows you to use more of your available internal elevation and shouldn’t be considered part of your total elevation. Basically, you have a 100yd zero and your available elevation is what you can dial in the turret plus what you can adjust in your Ivy mount. Your Charlie is what will get you the elevation you need.
With regard to shot cameras, I haven’t found them to be very useful. They are designed (at least the ones I’ve used) to sit close to the target so you can see your bullet holes on paper. If you set the camera back further for a wide field of view, it goes out of focus. We went so far as to open up the Longshot housing and replace the camera with a wide angle camera with adjustable lens and it works ok. We eventually tossed it aside and now rely on forward observers and a 115mm Swaro spotter.
The two biggest factors for spotting shots seem to be soil conditions and bullet weight. The heavier the bullet and more “powdery” the soil is, the easier to spot.
I’ve made hundreds of hits to 1 mile with my 6.5CM but that’s about all it can do. I wouldn’t even bother with wasting ammo at 2 miles with it. 50cal is also not ideal for ELR either. Poke around here and read up on 375s, 408s, and 416s if you are serious about ELR. Find a place with loose dirt for a backdrop and experienced shooters that make those shots on a regular basis and you’ll be on in no time as long as you’re shooting the proper caliber.
Thank you all for the replies. I'm by myself trying to get into this hobby. No friends or anyone I even know of locally that does this...so I'm reading and lurking as much as I can as I pursue this new hobby. I've found a 2000yd range and I've taken all the related classes I can so far (2 classes, a beginning and intermediate). But I've still not run into a lot of people who do it...who can mentor me...but I'm trying. Thoughtful replies like this really help. So thank you!
Don't waste your time trying to shoot a Creed at 2 miles it's a waste of time you're going to send crap piles of shots down range before you get lucky enough to hit even on a day with perfect conditions
what is 2 miles in yards? 3500+ ish, I believe. That is a helluva poke with any 308 bolt face load, even with the fanciest mono's and 30+" of barrel. Shooting at an air density from the top of Mt Everest would help however, if you want to hike up to a FP at Camp 4 or whatever the highest level spot is on that mountain.
Post up any pics you get from this crazy adventure. Want to hear how it goes (w/ an honest AAR)
Those who dare, win (some times...)
Post up any pics you get from this crazy adventure. Want to hear how it goes (w/ an honest AAR)
Those who dare, win (some times...)
2M is 3520yds. My current configuration (6.5CM Begara with Athlon scope (30 Mils) plus Ivey Mount (60 Mils) plus Charlie Tarac (30 Mils)) gives me 120 Mils of adjustment elevation. According to my Kestel BC that gets me to 3260 without a holdover. So the 3520 is possibly in the range of possibility. But all this great feedback to my newbie brain and looking at the subsonic speed the 6.5CM bullet will be going at that distance (644 mph)..., plus difficulties I will have with even seeing it...boy those 115mm Swaro spotters are pricey...even for me, a guy that can actually afford it if I want it. So, yeah, I see, I need another gun configuration more suited to the task if I ever get there. With that said, I'm still learning....and my local range only goes up to 2000yds anyway...so I'll see if I can even do that with relative consistency...before I move on. If I become "King of the 2000 yd", then I'll re-assess and see what I want to do from there, and what I want to do it with. Maybe I'll decide to shoot my 6.5CM from atop my minivan using my big toe. Who knows? <grin> Right now my intermediate goal is to move from 800 to 1000 and not feel like an idiot. Baby steps.
Check your math. If you're going to figure it in inches as you did above, the 32 Mils looks more like 4055 inches at 2 miles to me. Remember, this is an angular measurement. 1 mil=3.6" only at 100 yards.
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I really admire your enthusiasm. 2 miles is a long way off, and soon you will find that the difference between 800 and 1000 yards is a lot bigger than you think. Good luck and keep us posted
Lemme guess: you've been watching Mark and Sam after work?
In all seriousness, put an 18" plate at a mile wait till some pre-designated time that you post here for us in advance, start the video rolling at that pre-designated time (showing your watch) and post that video of you shooting a 1 MOA target at a mile. If you hit it with your Creed more than 2 out of 10 shots I'll give you kudos and lots of advice on progressing to 2 miles. Indeed I have a place you can come shoot 2 miles.
Not busting your balls. The point I'm trying to make is that you need to be realistic. And your challenge at a mile is going to be a big enough one. If you're honest with yourself about your hit rate at 1 mile - meaning you don't come back here and tell us how great your 6.5 is at one mile because you remember that one cherry-picked string that one day when the wind was perfect and you hit it 4 in a row - you can do some back of the envelope calculations and see that 2 miles is out of your depth. If you want to do more calculations, see Bryan Litz's books the section on WEZ analysis.
I wish you luck in your challenge and I'll eagerly await your video. I hope you prove me wrong.
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I'm not sure why you are throwing any potential hostility my way? I don't doubt anything you or anyone else in this thread is saying. I was just clueless enough to think I could get to 2M with the CM 6.5 and people here corrected me of that notion. The whole reason I bought a 6.5CM is I read somewhere that it was more than enough gun to hit 2M. I'm learning here that it's not. I'm corrected. I don't need to prove anything to you or anyone. I'm asking for advice...as a newbie. I got it. I've learned. I've corrected my understanding. Not sure why you or anyone else would throw hostility my way at all? I teach for a living...computer security and quantum physics. If I responded to newbie questions the way you did I wouldn't have a lot of students. Perhaps some of the reason why this sport doesn't pick up more membership is all the shit talking that goes to new people asking questions?? I've seen it at the range as well, with some seasoned veteran dogging the crap out of some new guy's $15K setup. There's a good chance that guy doesn't go back to that range or stay long in the sport if he's getting his ass handed to him every time he shows up to the range and asks a few questions.
With that said, I realize you've been relatively gentle with me, and I appreciate it.
Now that I've got more input from you and everyone else my plans are changing. Since I already spent the money on the 6.5CM, like the setup I have, and have a local range that goes to 2000yds, I'll probably just focus on that for the next few months to a year. See how accurate I can be at that distance eventually...and buy another gun to help me get to where I want to go. And I do appreciate your response as well.
I think you’ve picked up on the needed info here. 6.5 is not a 2 mile gun. But a good 1 mile starter package. Sling enough ammo and eventually you’ll hit something. Even if the bullet keyholes it eventually comes down somewhere
Also the sport of long range shooting has picked up more memberships lately than it can handle. With more and more people getting into it than say 10 years ago when 1500 yards was a long shot, savage was the only lower cost switch barrel option and SWFA fixed powers were the go to optics
You must remember the Hide and long range sport in general are filled with many former and active LE or military guys. Guys who learned to give and take shit.
Definitely stay clear of the bear pit if shit giving/taking isn’t your thing
That said the hide is a great place full of knowledge and great vendors. Hang out, get the proper equipment and you’ll get your 2 mile shot
Also the sport of long range shooting has picked up more memberships lately than it can handle. With more and more people getting into it than say 10 years ago when 1500 yards was a long shot, savage was the only lower cost switch barrel option and SWFA fixed powers were the go to optics
You must remember the Hide and long range sport in general are filled with many former and active LE or military guys. Guys who learned to give and take shit.
Definitely stay clear of the bear pit if shit giving/taking isn’t your thing
That said the hide is a great place full of knowledge and great vendors. Hang out, get the proper equipment and you’ll get your 2 mile shot
Definitely a 1 mile starter package!
My advice, run your 6.5 from 100 yards to a mile and maybe even 2K for a good year, get lots of experience and you’ll learn what you like and dislike and be in a much better place for something bigger.
I burned out a 260 barrel in 7 months when I found my first consistent 1 mile spot.
I had a ton of fun and learned a lot.
Yeah, people can easily go from 0-100 in a single post around here, but I think the best reason to avoid the Bear Pit is because it's just an unbelievable firehose of partisan propaganda, racism, conspiracy theories, appeals to emotion and other stupid shit. Unless of course that's your jam. It is however a good central location to monitor if you're working the intel side of DHS.
When I go to the Bear Pit, I see nothing but untapped potential.
You have potential...
You have potential...
OP, others have said most of what needs to be said on this thread.
The 6.5 CM is a fine round and you can have a lot of fun with it, but, as with everything, it has its limitations.
I will make some predictions:
- You will be shooting out to a mile with your 6.5 on a calm day and get some hits and be happy.
- You will go out on a day where the wind is gusty and unpredictable, and be lucky to walk away with a couple hits out of 50.
- You will say to yourself, "well, I want something bigger for just this type of condition... so I can shoot in the wind better."
- You go build a rifle with a bigger caliber.
- You are happier at a mile, but say to yourself, "I can shoot farther now! I want to try 2000 yards."
- You will go out on a calm day and get some hits at 2000 yards and be happy.
- You will go out on a day where the wind is gusty and unpredictable, and be lucky to walk away with a couple hits out of 50.
- You will say to yourself, "well, I want something bigger for just this type of condition... so I can shoot in the wind better."
- You go build... well, you get the picture.
It's an addiction.
Bottom line is to decide where and what ranges you want to shoot at and build a rifle that best matches those conditions. Can a 6.5 shoot a mile and a half or farther? Yes. Is it practical? No. Can a big 30 cal shoot a couple miles? Yes. Is it practical? No.
For me, I like to be challenged, but I prefer not to be gimped. I want to be challenged by the conditions, not by the equipment. I don't want to go out and shoot a bunch of rounds for which I can see neither the hits nor misses and I'm just shooting blind.
As an example, I'll take my 6 BRA with me when I go to do some ELR. If the conditions are right (and there's dry ground around the target for the splash), I might take shots with it at 1500 or a mile. If not, it's a fool's errand and a waste of components. Instead, I'll set closer targets and shoot unsupported, off a fence post, or do something else to make it challenging - and leave the longer range stuff for my 300 PRC.
The 6.5 CM is a fine round and you can have a lot of fun with it, but, as with everything, it has its limitations.
I will make some predictions:
- You will be shooting out to a mile with your 6.5 on a calm day and get some hits and be happy.
- You will go out on a day where the wind is gusty and unpredictable, and be lucky to walk away with a couple hits out of 50.
- You will say to yourself, "well, I want something bigger for just this type of condition... so I can shoot in the wind better."
- You go build a rifle with a bigger caliber.
- You are happier at a mile, but say to yourself, "I can shoot farther now! I want to try 2000 yards."
- You will go out on a calm day and get some hits at 2000 yards and be happy.
- You will go out on a day where the wind is gusty and unpredictable, and be lucky to walk away with a couple hits out of 50.
- You will say to yourself, "well, I want something bigger for just this type of condition... so I can shoot in the wind better."
- You go build... well, you get the picture.
It's an addiction.
Bottom line is to decide where and what ranges you want to shoot at and build a rifle that best matches those conditions. Can a 6.5 shoot a mile and a half or farther? Yes. Is it practical? No. Can a big 30 cal shoot a couple miles? Yes. Is it practical? No.
For me, I like to be challenged, but I prefer not to be gimped. I want to be challenged by the conditions, not by the equipment. I don't want to go out and shoot a bunch of rounds for which I can see neither the hits nor misses and I'm just shooting blind.
As an example, I'll take my 6 BRA with me when I go to do some ELR. If the conditions are right (and there's dry ground around the target for the splash), I might take shots with it at 1500 or a mile. If not, it's a fool's errand and a waste of components. Instead, I'll set closer targets and shoot unsupported, off a fence post, or do something else to make it challenging - and leave the longer range stuff for my 300 PRC.
Exactly how the sickness evolves.
Op you could save your self a ton of money by just sticking with 1000 yards and be happy. Sounds like your screwed and already have the sickness.
It never goes away. There’s always that next rung on the ladder
If you really want to save money just do what I should have done years ago
Buy an AI AXMC or AXSR. Or DT if you like bullpups
Spend coin on 1 rifle with kick ass optics. NF Atacr, ZCO or TT
Have your go to caliber (6.5 CM) that you shoot 95% of the time. Then a setup for 300 PRC, 300 NM or 338 LM.
When you take her out for ELR shooting you can swap the bolt/barrel in a few minutes
Or do two dedicated rifles 6.5 and 300 NM/375 etc
I prefer the switch barrel platform because I don’t regularly go out to a mile. Most of my shooting is done inside 1200 yards so my preference is 6.5 and 300 PRC. The 6.5 being target only and 300 PRC setup for LR hunting
Buy an AI AXMC or AXSR. Or DT if you like bullpups
Spend coin on 1 rifle with kick ass optics. NF Atacr, ZCO or TT
Have your go to caliber (6.5 CM) that you shoot 95% of the time. Then a setup for 300 PRC, 300 NM or 338 LM.
When you take her out for ELR shooting you can swap the bolt/barrel in a few minutes
Or do two dedicated rifles 6.5 and 300 NM/375 etc
I prefer the switch barrel platform because I don’t regularly go out to a mile. Most of my shooting is done inside 1200 yards so my preference is 6.5 and 300 PRC. The 6.5 being target only and 300 PRC setup for LR hunting
If you want to be a man, get a 300 Weatherby Magnum, no muzzle break. Then shoot that to 2-miles. Screw the 300 RUMs and the Cheytacs and the PRCs and the doodly-dee-dees. Go get yourself the obscure, ridiculously expensive to shoot 300 Weatherby Magnum... the original ultra mag.
And then once you hit 2-miles, you can go hunt Thanos and win.
And then once you hit 2-miles, you can go hunt Thanos and win.
Hate to yell you this but the 300 weatherby mag is slower then the 300 ultra mag run at max with the same grain weight bullet. And the belt is not always conducive to accuracy and brass quality is crap as well. Mark v actions are weak and most of the time not accurate and their stock designs are poor for prone shooting. The 300 weatherby mag is basicly a performance match the the 300 prc inferior to the 300 norma and 300 ultramag
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I went with one rifle set up. I shoot long range and hunt. I just switch barrels when its time to hunt then put my target barrel back on. If you torque everything the same and keep track of zero it's very easy to zero at 100 again. I would suggest 1 rifle long action that you can swap bolt heads go from 6.5 cm to 300 rum ect. Just have multiple barrels on standby for what distance you want. Cheapest and easiest way. I decided to go with a 7mm-300 win mag it gets me to 2000 yards easy ( longest I can shoot for now) kind of in the middle but I have great backgrounds for spots.
260, 7 saum, 338 edge and now I’m piecing together a 375I went 6's, 7's, 300 Norma, 375 Cheytac.
The slippery slope!
Thanks for short cutting my learning curve <grin>...that sounds about right.
So, on a related note, what are the calibers that most people would use to 2M? I've got a 50 cal (Serbu 50A) that is supposedly 1-MOA or better. And I know the longest confirmed kill shot in the world was made by a 50 cal. But from previous replies, I get that it's not what most people use to go to 2M.
Just a small example
- Robert Brantley – 416 Barrett
- John Buhay – 375 CheyTac Improved
- Paul Phillips – 416 Barrett
- Duncan Davis – 375 CheyTac
- Gene Nowaczyk – 375 CheyTac
- Tom Manners – 416 Barrett
- James Foster – 375 CheyTac
- Rudy Gonsior – 375 CheyTac
- Libert O’Sullivan – 375 Libert. This is obviously a wildcat that Libert designed himself. The case is based on a shortened 50 BMG that is necked down to 375. For more info visit 375Libert.com.
- Jeff Heeg – 375 Warner. Jeff explained this to me as a wildcat that is basically a 50 BMG case necked down to a 375. He said he was originally running 193gr of Hodgdon 50 BMG powder, which pushed a 400gr bullet at 3,355 fps!!! Unfortunately, barrel life was under 200 rounds on his first barrel, so on this second barrel he switched to a cooler burning powder that still produced good pressures. He was anxious to get home and see how the throat had worn over the match.
Again, no perfect answer. My 2-mile build is going to be a 37XC (at smith now). I went this route because I wanted a Lapua bolt face and a more efficient round over a CT. I get to keep using my same press and other tools (for the most part), and it's less powder, more consistent, etc.
One other thing...
Just because one rifle is a good setup for 2500, 3000 or 3500 yards, for example, it doesn't mean that it's good for 1000, 1500, a mile, etc.
When I get my 37XC, the only time I'll be shooting it at less than mid-2000s is sighting it in at the range. With component shortages/costs, bullet costs, barrel life, and a whole host of other reasons, using it for nearer ranges just doesn't make sense. That's what my 300 is for - or closer in, my 6 BRA.
The one on the right is the little-known .750 Cigaro?
I wish you the best of luck you can do it send in video or it never happened mostly cause sniff sniff there is no 2 mile range anywhere near us
lol just to ask which bullet are you planning on using ? 147gr 153 ?
lol just to ask which bullet are you planning on using ? 147gr 153 ?
Colossus of course
But I’m a poor so it won’t be a fast build
I figure the 20x action will be great no matter which direction I wonder after that build. Plus by the time I’m able to finish it up and shoot it you guys will have more data available
Welcome to the Hide! We are probably all somewhere along the same journey and 2 miles is a hell of a long ways. 6.5 CM is a great practice round and will help you develop your skills, it’s actually like cheating compared to 308 or something similar. A mile is doable but not consistently to the point where you could do it on command in adverse conditions, I would say 1200 is as far as pure factory ammo is good for. 300 Norma or something similar will be fairly reliable to 2000. Beyond that your preference is as valid as anybody else as the jury is still outing that…
Serbus are great options as well. Easy to clean after they detonate and get lodged in your chest cavity
Personally I’d sell the Serbu and fund a 416 or 375 CT if you want a great ELR option
you going 37XC? or full 375 ct?260, 7 saum, 338 edge and now I’m piecing together a 375
The slippery slope!
I thought that was just because that chucklebucket didn't read the directions that came with his Serbu and his Sabots
I took a path similar to this. About 10 years ago, we decided to test the limits of a 5.56 AR-15 and an 308 AR-10. We could get hits out to 1K on 1.5MOA steel, but with the wind of our area being typically like a frustrated bitch, it was more worth our time to work in the 600-800 range to learn wind calls, etc.
I probably should have bit the bullet and jumped to an AXMC, but instead made an intermediate diversion to an MPA in 338LM. That made the jump to 2K trivial and 2400 just a bit more work on the spotting end. Then I added an AXMC in 338LM and loved it. I can shoot the AX much better and can spot my own shots way more easily. We added a 30" 300PRC barrel and 1.5 miles was straightforward for both calibers.
So basically, I'm agreeing with the others about learning from what you have, then stepping up and learning more. Most days now, a mile with the PRC is pretty casual, but if you shoot in a place with flaky wind, casual is a relative word. I like to do ELR in 2 to 4 day trips, where I can get set up and get the rewards of the times with calmer winds and also take the beatings when reality is a bitch. You really do want to try to understand what it takes to shoot in horrible conditions of all kinds, because, unless you've found some tricks I haven't, Mother Nature does not give a fuck about your wishes for easy conditions.
Ditto on range with lose dirt to spot shots. Was shooting my .50 couple weeks ago just over a mile and was hard even with a 750g bullet to see the hits sometimes if they were in tall grass.
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