Is Retumbo dirty?

[jonaddis84]

Shot 6 rounds through my Savage 338LM today testing out new stuff, and this is what the bore looks like. Wet patch did not even touch the stuff, had to run a brush with Montana Extreme on it to get it out.

I am experiencing awful accuracy with this gun, and feel like this crap could be my culprit. Is it possible for a barrel to cause this?

Ill try some H1000 next to see if it does the same thing.

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: Is Retumbo dirty?

Particulars of your loads?

Factory barrels can copper foul early on due to the fact that they are not hand lapped.

I've not shot Retumbo out of my five year old Sako TRG-42, but I do shoot H-4831sc, H-1000, VV-165 and VV-170 and even putting 80 rounds a sitting down the pipe, I don't get terrible fouling. Certainly not what I see in your bore from your picture.

Is all of the powder burning? Magnum primers?

USP and/or JB's bore paste might help in the beginning, but be judicious when you use it--full, even passes down the bore, maybe five to ten times.

I put 40 rounds down a few months back and didn't clean my bore until last week. Just some solvent, a few swipes with a bore brush and then a few passes with dry patches and I noticed a little bit of copper near the muzzle.

I had a new bottle of Sweets and soaked the bore for five minutes (don't go much longer) and the patch came out a pretty light blue, however the copper was no longer present.

Chris

 

[jonaddis84]

Re: Is Retumbo dirty?

Lapua brass, CCI magnum primers, 90ish grains retumbo (still working on load), 300gn Scenars seated .010 off

Headspace is set to a GO gauge perfectly.

I am shooting with a suppressor, but my factory 308 Savage barrel has never looked like this after even several hundred rounds.

Havent checked velocities yet, but its shooting roughly 2.5" groups at 100yds.

It doesnt look much like copper fouling to me, looks like powder fouling, horrible powder fouling. Never seen anything like this in any of my rifles.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Is Retumbo dirty?

2.5 @ 100 is awful....

Can YOU shoot this rifle? Not to condescend, but 338LM is a tough caliber to shoot well. I can't.

Hard to tell in your pic, but some residue is normal. Retumbo is definitely dirty with lowere pressure, but 90ish gr with a 300 ought not be low pressure.

Definitely try some RL25 and H1000...even 76ish of H4350. Ive had good luck with them in 338LM.

 

[desertHK]

Re: Is Retumbo dirty?

I tried Retumbo in my 338LM before switching to RL25, because of better velocity. I didn't have any problem with barrel fouling with Retumbo. In fact, I am using that for my 243.

 

[mscott]

Re: Is Retumbo dirty?

I've used Retumbo in a 7mmRM and .243 and never seen anything like that. It does leave the necks a little sooty, but nothing terrible. I've also never run it through a supressed rifle, so that may change things.

 

[bohem]

Re: Is Retumbo dirty?

I found it to be dirtier than some others, but NOTHING like that.

Have you put a borescope down that tube and checked the throat?

 

[jonaddis84]

Re: Is Retumbo dirty?

No access to a borescope unfortunately.

Not sure whats so difficult about 338LM? Especially with a brake or suppressor it is no different than 308.

 

[bohem]

Re: Is Retumbo dirty?

Before you chase your ass too much trying to get it to shoot, I'd suggest you send it in to Savage and make a complaint that nothing will shoot in it.

Remind them how much money you've spent on ammo trying to get it to work.

If it was a 1" rifle then I might understand if they said "too bad", but they're promoting this as a precision rifle while you're dealing with a 2000yd shotgun.

 

[Shireman]

Re: Is Retumbo dirty?

Retumbo is not that dirty. Have tried shooting it without the can?
I would put a few rounds through her without it and see what the barrel looks like then.

 

[jonaddis84]

Re: Is Retumbo dirty?

I really want to call Savage, I would just like to find out who a good person to call would be first. The last time I called I got some Dbag that all he would tell me was to try 250gn bullets because thats what its designed to shoot.... a 1-9 twist, really, come on

If anyone has a name or extension of someone helpful to talk to you that would be awesome.

I fired it a few times without the can to see if thats what was killing my accuracy but that did not resolve anything, Im not sure however if it still got as dirty, dont remember looking at the bore before I cleaned it that time.

I have some Tubbs bullets for 338 that Im tempted to try, but dont really want to waste $40 on this barrel if its a dud anyway. Although, I have a Shilen coming for it so I guess Ill never use them anyway.

 

[CS95]

Re: Is Retumbo dirty?

Jon,
Retumbo, like the rest of Hogdon's extreme powders is a great powder. The reason you are getting what you are getting is a few things stacking up with the main one being that you are shooting with a can with a high volume high pressure cartridge which causes a large amount of blow back. Another is the fact that it is a brand new factory button rifled barrel. Savages barrels are notorious for being a little rough,so to speak, but almost always shoot well.

As far as the accuracy goes, believe it or not what the savage rep that you talked to said may have some merit as I have been around 3 of those guns now and they all liked the 250's better, which is a little weird considering the twist.


All in all I think you just havent found the load that the gun likes yet. I use Retumbo in my 338 and it is extremely accurate.
I run 92gr with Berger 300gr Hybrids and FGMM magnums. Just to clarify this is a custom rifle not a Savage.

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: Is Retumbo dirty?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sp95</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jon,
Retumbo, like the rest of Hogdon's extreme powders is a great powder. The reason you are getting what you are getting is a few things stacking up with the main one being that you are shooting with a can with a high volume high pressure cartridge which causes a large amount of blow back. Another is the fact that it is a brand new factory button rifled barrel. Savages barrels are notorious for being a little rough,so to speak, but almost always shoot well.

As far as the accuracy goes, believe it or not what the savage rep that you talked to said may have some merit as I have been around 3 of those guns now and they all liked the 250's better, which is a little weird considering the twist.


All in all I think you just havent found the load that the gun likes yet. I use Retumbo in my 338 and it is extremely accurate.
I run 92gr with Berger 300gr Hybrids and FGMM magnums. Just to clarify this is a custom rifle not a Savage.



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I'd try Retumbo first, without the can and then I'd try some different powders, without the can and then with the can to start ruling some things out.

No sense sending the rifle back without doing one's due diligence.

Chris

 

[jonaddis84]

Re: Is Retumbo dirty?

Thats what Ive been doing so far is just ruling things out.

First thing I did was disassemble the action, found a booger on the action face so I trued it up. At this time I bedded the scope base down thinking maybe it was moving around. This didnt fix anything.

Replaced the recoil lug with a SSS. At this point I didnt like the Accustock setup, especially without the wedge, so I milled it all out and did a proper Devcon bed job on the stock with a full size recoil lug instead of the accustock puny lug.

Headspaced the gun properly with a PTG gauge, the engraving still lines up so it must have been at least very close from the factory, in fact my ogive length is 0.001" longer now so the headspace was actually tighter from Savage.

This is where I noticed the awful fouling (not saying its the first time it did it, just when I noticed it) and still shooting 2.5" groups at 100.

Final thing Ive done that I havent tested yet is got a new QD brake for the can in 3/4-24 and re-threaded the barrel. For one thing the threads were slightly loose from the factory, second I think 5/8 is way too small for a 338 bore, and I could notice less resistance in the last 3/4" of the barrel when cleaning.

I will report whether the 3/4 threads helped at all. Unfortunately, now this barrel is just a project that is pissing me off, because like I said I already ordered a Shilen SS match barrel a few weeks ago for the gun. Problem is they are 20 weeks out.

ETA: Forgot what I sat down mainly to write... I think this gun may be beyond the point of being able to send back to Savage now. My project will be trying to get them to send me a barrel to test if I do decide to call them.

 

[Tyler Kemp]

Re: Is Retumbo dirty?

Give them a call and see what they say...not acceptable accuracy, and I'm assuming you're plenty competent to shoot better than 2.5" at 100 if you're getting a high dollar rifle.

 

[jonaddis84]

Re: Is Retumbo dirty?

Well, explain this one.

Went out to test the rifle after the re-threading today. Wasnt able to shoot sans suppressor due to being at my house...and I hate shooting without it. Thought I'd try a few and if it was dirty as all hell again Id clean it then try without.

Shot 11 rounds today, 5 more than last time, and the bore looks beautiful. Few specs of powder residue in there, but its what I would call the normal amount, looks like the rest of my rifles now. I cant explain why rethreading would have helped this situation, possibly due to how I thought the muzzle was notably larger than the rest of the bore, and it was causing excessive backpressure... I have no idea.

The accuracy is still yet to be determined. 91.0 grains shot just under a 1" group at 165yds and two were in the same hole. This is off a bipod on a cafeteria table, so not the best setup for testing. 91.5 also shot a decent group, assuming I held the 3rd shot on the wrong hashmark (was holding 2.5 mils since I forgot my allen to adjust the Razor).

It all went to hell though with 92grs, still no pressure signs, but this group was literally about 10". I dont know if I severely messed up my holds or what, I cant explain that one at all.

Ive got another batch of 91 and 91.5, plus 92.5, 93, & 93.5 ready to go, and I will chrono this session.

I think this barrel will be a good candidate for Tubbs final finish bullets. Ill document my velocities today, shoot the batch of Tubbs bullets, and see how much of a difference they make. Ive heard people say 50fps improvments are not uncommon, and also make factory barrels a breeze to clean.

 

[bohem]

Re: Is Retumbo dirty?

Jon, I sent you a PM, perhaps I can help.

Something strikes me as being really off in that barrel but perhaps it is just a load issue.

 

[CS95]

Re: Is Retumbo dirty?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jonaddis84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, explain this one.

Went out to test the rifle after the re-threading today. Wasnt able to shoot sans suppressor due to being at my house...and I hate shooting without it. Thought I'd try a few and if it was dirty as all hell again Id clean it then try without.

Shot 11 rounds today, 5 more than last time, and the bore looks beautiful. Few specs of powder residue in there, but its what I would call the normal amount, looks like the rest of my rifles now. I cant explain why rethreading would have helped this situation, possibly due to how I thought the muzzle was notably larger than the rest of the bore, and it was causing excessive backpressure... I have no idea.
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Jon,
I thought I already explained this in my previous post and maybe another guy did also, but the can is most definitely the culprit of the dirty barrel. When you are running a high volume, hi capacity case with a can you are going to get some serious blowback into the barrel. It happens with all guns running cans. It does not however seem to bother accuracy. I run cans on most of my guns and literally will not clean them until I start to notice accuracy starting to degrade which is usually between 400 and 600 rounds. The only time I clean it before then is if I have a comp coming up and I think this point of the round count will happen in the middle of the match.

I cant remember if you mentioned this yet, but have you tried the 300 gr bergers? They shoot unbelievably in my 338. I jump them about 70thou with 92gr of Retumbo and get 2760(nothing special velocity wise, but unreal accuracy).

 

[jonaddis84]

Re: Is Retumbo dirty?

I think you misunderstood my last post. I was saying that the only thing I changed from my original post to the last one was re-threading the muzzle. I was still shooting WITH the suppressor on, and this time the bore did not get one bit dirty, at least no wheres near the picture at the top of this thread.

I havent tried the 300 bergers, I would like to, but I have 500 Scenars already. Also, I just cant imagine that its just the bullet causing my problems. Ive done a lot of load development, and normally a BAD handload, or a gun that doesnt like a bullet shoots 1" groups at 100 yds, not 4" groups.

 

[CS95]

Re: Is Retumbo dirty?

Yup, I sure did. I also agree with you 100% on the rest of your last post, but I have seen big guns just shoot absolutely horribly with a bullet they didnt like and then shoot great with another which is one reason I mentioned the bergers. That 9twist might also agree with the longer bergers and you get quite a bit better BC. My 338 has a 9.6tw and by far shoots the bergers the best. That being said the twist really doesnt have much to do with that. They are just what this gun happens to like.