As far as caliber goes, there aren't really any sponsors steering the choice of what people shoot. Guys will chase the new shiny, but that's human nature.
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Is the 6 dasher still relevant?
- Thread starter lte82
- Start date
I knew I was going to get some disagreement, sometimes it's not a popular opinion (especially on FB).
For scopes, Bushnell is on there solely because they sponsor team GAP. Khales grew on that list as they sponsored more shooters. MPA, Proof barrels, Defiance, etc., etc. Great products, and I even use some of the ones listed, but even Ray Charles can see there is a correlation.
I absolutely do believe that those lists would look different if no shooters were sponsored. How much different would be pretty interesting and is pure speculation.
And I agree, sponsorships don't drive cartridge choices (at least not yet).
While there are people that only run brand X because of sponsorship, I'd argue there's at least as many (including top shooters) that shoot the brands they want and go after sponsorships with those companies. Every single company that sponsors me is a company I pursued that relationship with because I already used their products and trusted them, and I know quite a few that feel the same way. That said, I know a few that are absolutely mercenary and will go wherever they think they're going to get the best deal. Some of it is also bandwagoning (IE: Oh, Shooter X is winning with Product Y, that must be the best, and I need to buy that if I want to be as good as him/her). I think Bushnell took a hit for a few years because of the perception (true or not) that the glass wasn't as good as other brands, but I've noticed a slow but gradual shift in that since the XRS2 and DMR2 Pro were released. I'm seeing a lot more of them showing up at matches outside of other Bushnell team shooters, as well.
Own one Dasher, have another on the way.
Fireformed Lapua brass has been great, but if Hornady made Dasher brass that fits a Lapua chamber (unlike the failed Norma experiment) I’d be ALL over that.
Fireformed Lapua brass has been great, but if Hornady made Dasher brass that fits a Lapua chamber (unlike the failed Norma experiment) I’d be ALL over that.
Seems like it would make more sense to just stick with a caliber/speed you know well instead of starting over all the time.
If somebody produces ammo for this and this isn't box art they are idiots.
6dasher for hipsters? I mean on another forum the 6.5 Creedmore is know as the 6.5 Manbun...
I'm ok with my 6BR. NC has no wind. Basically the whole east coast has no wind. Any given match here, your money is made inside 700. I've printed small groups at 1k on calm days. Really windy days, I can roll the dice on 800+ and still own 700 and in.
How are you determining efficiency? Does it it change with caliber? Say 6mm vs 6.5mm creed?
It's just a box in the bottom right corner of Quickload that Milo2.5 pointed out to me. Have no idea how they calculate it. Seems like smaller cases do better than larger and overbore does better than straight walled cases, but is also affected by what powder you choose and what pressure you input the load data at. Not sure if it's got real world implications, but roughly it does seem to somewhat correlate with how efficiently a case turns a given amount of powder into projectile velocity.
A lot factors in, like Sheldon mentioned, some huge cases shine too. There was talk of inherent accuracy of cases in a post, not coincidental that the high number cases rule the BR world for the most part.
I've also seen a 6 creed load with terrible numbers using Norma MRP and a hybrid shoot crazy accurate for 2400 rds, all a game I guess.
I really like efficient cartridges. One bad example of this is .224 Valkyrie. The ballistics look nice until you see that a similar size case can send a heavier 6mm bullet with a higher muzzle velocity burning the same amount of powder.
Thinking about it, the 6BR variants do very well and are quite efficient but 6GT does have a bit more case capacity so opening it up to .25 Merv Griffin might be a really nice chambering once the high BC .257" bullets become common.
Thinking about it, the 6BR variants do very well and are quite efficient but 6GT does have a bit more case capacity so opening it up to .25 Merv Griffin might be a really nice chambering once the high BC .257" bullets become common.
OK, I'll be the first to say it, 22GT Their it is. 
If George can keep up the hype with the 6GT and Alpha make enough GAP head stamped brass,
and some reamers become available, it could maybe surpass the 6 Dasher someday.
if all the stars aline, maybe. Only time will tell. It's not even out yet, and look at the talk about it.
I for one, won't buy into it. Like others have said, shoot what you have and shoot it well.
If George can keep up the hype with the 6GT and Alpha make enough GAP head stamped brass,
and some reamers become available, it could maybe surpass the 6 Dasher someday.
if all the stars aline, maybe. Only time will tell. It's not even out yet, and look at the talk about it.
I for one, won't buy into it. Like others have said, shoot what you have and shoot it well.
So if a 6x47 is 30% efficient and a Dasher is 33% efficient, roughly, then the question becomes... Is the 3% worth the tradeoff?
More efficient, maybe by 3% but lower velocity and finicky feeding. I think so much of this is semantics. Guys are spending hundreds, maybe thousands of dollars to retool for a new caliber that is essentially no different.
Mayhaps we should all pick a caliber we like and master it instead of trying to be a jack of all trades, and a master of none.
More efficient, maybe by 3% but lower velocity and finicky feeding. I think so much of this is semantics. Guys are spending hundreds, maybe thousands of dollars to retool for a new caliber that is essentially no different.
Mayhaps we should all pick a caliber we like and master it instead of trying to be a jack of all trades, and a master of none.
Amen brother. I started shooting Border Wars matches last year with a Savage and an XTRII with a G2B reticle. The first match I got my ass handed to me. After that I practiced everything I saw in that match through dryfire and live fire. I committed myself to training hard. In the back of my mind I still thought I could never compete without all the whizbang new shit. Then the second match I almost got into the top twenty, and the third match I got into the top ten. After that I switched jobs and had no time to train. My scores steadily declined. It became apparent that the equipment has very little to do with it. If you have a rifle and load that shoots .5 moa and a scope that tracks and allows you to see the targets, the rest is about the skill of the shooter. Once I realized I could succeed with what I had, I stopped worrying about buying a custom gun and started worrying about buying more reloading components and barrels. I enjoy following all the new shiny as much as anyone else. If money ever becomes no object I will probably buy it. Until then, I understand that range time will add far more points to anyone's score than having a $10k set up. Now, before someone argues with me, I understand that if a guy was consistently placing top 5 that he may be able to buy a couple points with better equipment. What kills me is when I see people rack up credit card debt to buy top of the line shit to shoot matches. It's a hobby, and one where success isn't determined nearly as much by equipment as the majority of people think. The winners usually have nice equipment because they have been doing this for a long time. Over that time they have invested time and effort into being skilled while at the same time investing in better equipment because they know they enjoy this, and they are in it for the long haul. Take away their nice equipment and they will probably still figure out a way to win. Sorry for the rant. I just get sick of seeing threads about how equipment is going to help people win. Once you have stuff that works, equipment plays a minimal role.
Marketing hype is just how you explain to your wife how you "need" all this stuff you want.
My wife picked up on this very quickly. Now, all the stuff she "needs" comes before the stuff I "need." I shouldn't have taught her so well
I agree with this one. For calibers like 6 Creedmoor you still see VERY few people running Hornady brass even though you have to resize and fireform Lapua brass to make 6 Creed brass from it. The tolerances and quality of the brass aren't comparable, and the only way I could see people running Hornady brass is if they make 6 Dasher brass that doesn't require fireforming. It'll be the only way people would shoot it since Lapua lasts so much longer.
I've got quite a few friends still running Hornady brass in 6 Creed, and I run the same for one simple reason - cost. I can easily get single-digit SDs and sub-25ES on my hand loads with Hornady brass. Given how much I lose at matches, I have a hard time justifying $1+ per piece.
Cost is the same argument that led me to use Lapua brass even when running 6.5 Creedmoor. Hornady brass primer pockets were too loose to use after only 5-7 loads. Lapua brass would last 20+ loadings.
My experience of losing brass at matches was not similar to yours. Over the course of two national matches and nearly a dozen club series matches I only ever lost fewer than 10 pieces of brass.
The last time I bothered to document a batch of brass, I was comfortably getting 10 firings on Hornady brass from my bolt guns. Last year I used the same batch of 300 cases for 4 2-day PRS matches, a couple of club matches, training, and load development. Going into the AI match last weekend, I had 242 remaining. I haven't done a count yet, but I lost a lot of brass last weekend due to mud, so that match will probably be the end of that batch, and it will go in my practice brass bucket.
I run hornady brass in my 6 creeds,some brass probably had 15 firings on it.I was surprised as well.My experience with hornady brass before in larger calibers was not so good,but for me in match’s I love it,I don’t stroke out like some do about loosing brass.
It really depends how hard you're pushing. At the higher pressure of max loads the Lapua shines. If you're keeping them pulled back a bit and find a velocity node below max the Hornady can last quite a long time.
This is assuming you're annealing and not loosing cases to neck hardening and cracking.
Honest question as I have no personal experience with the Dasher.
This is all hypothetical being the GT is not proven yet, but if the GT can match the Dasher Ballistically, Accurasy wise and addresses the feeding issues of the Dasher, what would the downfall to moving from a Dasher to the GT?
Would it just be the crap Hornady brass? I’m assuming that at some point as they did with the Creedmore, if the caliber takes off it’s only a matter of time before Lapua begins manufacturing brass for it, at which point you have now eliminated the brass prep as well.
Yes, there’s along of assumptions in that post lol, but lets just say for this posts sake that the above criteria is met.
Again, Not trying to start an argument, just wondering your thoughts on it.
This is all hypothetical being the GT is not proven yet, but if the GT can match the Dasher Ballistically, Accurasy wise and addresses the feeding issues of the Dasher, what would the downfall to moving from a Dasher to the GT?
Would it just be the crap Hornady brass? I’m assuming that at some point as they did with the Creedmore, if the caliber takes off it’s only a matter of time before Lapua begins manufacturing brass for it, at which point you have now eliminated the brass prep as well.
Yes, there’s along of assumptions in that post lol, but lets just say for this posts sake that the above criteria is met.
Again, Not trying to start an argument, just wondering your thoughts on it.
The GT won’t be Hornady brass. It’s alpha which I’ve found as good as Lapua.
Oh nice. So with that being said, and if the above criteria is met, what would be the downfall to moving from the Dasher to the GT? From an outsiders perspective, if a new caliber can at least match my current calibers ballistics, and accuracy, feed more reliably, and eliminates the case prep, why would I not switch?
Again, the GT is not proven yet, so this is a hypothetical question.....
You would switch. However as You said this is all hypothetical until it can prove itself.
Agreed. At that point I don’t think it would be considered “caliber chasing” It’s just seems to be a prudent decision. Im looking forward to seeing what it can do.
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I don't know if GAP has listed pricing for the GT brass but if it's more than Lapua is, that is going to be a slow starter.
The case is a good size for efficient larger calibers with even longer bullets in AI style mags. Anymore I'm leaning more towards barrel life and highest BC vs fast and lightweight bullets.
Sure would be an easy neck up to 25 cal for the Blackjacks! Got this old 40x....
The case is a good size for efficient larger calibers with even longer bullets in AI style mags. Anymore I'm leaning more towards barrel life and highest BC vs fast and lightweight bullets.
Sure would be an easy neck up to 25 cal for the Blackjacks! Got this old 40x....
I believe the question is less "what would be the downfall", and more "what would be the upside"?
As I see it, downfall is going to be the initial lack of dies and brass as folks flock to the New Shiny, and the costs associated therein.
The only upside I see is no longer needing to form brass...though this could tip the scales for some users when it comes time to rebarrel due to time and/or cost savings.
Are the feeding issues of the Dasher being over blown? It seems some experience then and others don’t?
I would bet if you've been running Dasher for a while, you've probably got any feed issues figured out...
I run a Dasher on a 700SA, and Magpul Pmag 7.62ACs feed without issue. Hell, even 6BR fireform loads are 95% reliable...
Like you said, lots of assumptions in that question.
One of the big draws of the Dasher originally was that it was a time-tested caliber with benchrest level accuracy and world records to back that up. If if the accuracy of the 6GT matched it identically it would still need to develop that "reputation" of accuracy. More of a perception/marketing hurdle. But let's assume that's sorted out and the GT is the exact equal of the Dasher.
The feeding thing isn't really driving anyone. Most guys run the Dasher without issue. Might be nice to not have to buy a magazine spacer for the GT if you were just starting out. But if you already have the Dasher dialed in, there's no incentive to switch. Heck, I'd probably keep running the magazine spacer even with the 6GT if it fits in there.
You could probably rephrase to ask the same question about why guys don't shoot 6x47 instead of Dasher. The answer would be twofold, recoil and barrel life. The question is whether the GT splits that gap between 6x47 and Dasher in a desirable way.
As someone who is currently shooting Dasher I'd consider the GT after my Dasher brass and barrels are toast. My deciding factors are going to be whether it meets the accuracy, barrel life and brass life expectations, and if the brass is readily available (doubt Lapua is going to jump in). I'd also consider a couple more practical questions like whether my gunsmith already has the reamer and whether the OAL of the 6GT fits in my current mags so I can keep shooting my 6BRA with spacer kit and not need a whole second set of mags for the new caliber.
Assuming it matches the accuracy, velocity, and barrel life I'd go with a GT over a Dasher just because it eliminates the need to fireform. If someone comes out with Dasher brass, however, then I'd still go with Dasher just because of the large amount of load data floating around for the caliber and the proven history it has.
That said, personally I went with 6BR over a Dasher because fireforming is a PITA. I know fireforming loads still shoot great, but it's an extra step in the load development process that I don't want to deal with (make a fireforming load that shoots well, then later make a load with formed brass that will shoot well). The barrel life was also a big plus to me, because with a 6BR I can shoot even a busy match schedule on a single barrel all year long instead of 2-3 barrels like some guys using Dashers or 6x47/6XC/6Creed.
If the GT barrel life claims, of being longer than a Dasher, are true and it ends up in the 3,000+ round region I'd probably switch just to get faster velocities with an acceptable (to me) barrel life. Otherwise, realistically, I'll probably just stick with 6BR because the one or two tenths on a 10mph wind at 1,000 yards isn't something I can really justify switching for (with all the associated costs and time investment) when my 6BR can already run DTACs well at 2,800 fps.
There would be no down fall. If it does all that, it will be an excellent cartridge.
That said, even if it does all that, I still wouldn't change over from 6BRA. There still wouldn't be any reason for me to do so.
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It makes sense that if someone’s running a Dasher successfully, has addressed the feeding issues, has all the brass, dies, etc and doesn’t mind the case prep than there would be no reason to switch over if the GT met the ballistics and accuracy of the Dasher.
Maybe it would be more of a option to someone who is looking to get into the 6mm game initially that the GT would be a better option.
Much like the 6.5x284 vs 6.5 PRC. It would make sense that someone who has been shooting the .284, has the ballistics, components etc dialed in, has no need for factory ammo or a short action, there would be no reason to switch over. Now it wouldn’t make much sense in my mind for someone who initially making the decision between the 2 to go the 6.5x.284 route when the PRC with factory ammo and in a short action is available.
IMO, I don’t suspect the Dasher (or any caliber for that matter) will ever be irrelevant to those using is as successfully as they currently are.
Exactly. I believe George designed this cartridge for those that want the advantages of a 6 Dasher/BRA/BRX, etc but without all the "hassle".
Those already setup for the above cartridges won't really have reason to go to 6GT.
It removes some "barriers of entry" that may dissuade others from the 6BR family of cartridges. Some of the above cartridges are easy to fire form, and it's easy to get them to feed in rifles reliably. I think the "hassle" of these cartridges are over-exaggerated, as it was incredibly easy to get into 6BRA, but nonetheless, gives people more options. And more options are always a good thing.
For what it’s worth I have a 223, a BR and a 6 creedmoor. For short matches and little wind matches I use the BR for it’s minimal recoil and exceptional accuracy. However when shots are often past 600-700 and the wind kicks up I use the creedmoor. As much as I’d want a GT I’m not sure how much I’d use it as it would not have the qualities I’d want to see on a creedmoor or the BR. Perhaps it will eventually replace my BR IF it can prove to be as forgiving to load and is as accurate as my BR
No way in heck that's gonna happen. Barrel life is pretty predictable based on powder quantity and bore diameter. Bigger cases are going to have less barrel life and the 6GT is going to have less barrel life than the Dasher. You could probably make it close to a net wash if you ran the 6GT at Dasher speeds.
I think that's where it's going to shine. I'd recommend it to a new shooter over the Dasher simply for the reduced hassle factor of the brass.
Kinda funny, I'd see the 6GT in a similar way, but as the "larger" cartridge. Keep a 6BRA with 105's at around 2900 for most matches, 6GT with DTAC's at 2900 for when the wind is blowing a bit harder. Of course I could do that with a 6 Creed or 6x47 too, but would be nice to accomplish with less powder in a more efficient case.
Yup. One of the reasons I haven’t gotten into those “wildcat” type cartridges. I like to reload and all, but I like shooting a lot more. Reloading is just a necessary evil. If I was to go 6mm at this point it would probably be the 6CM, but im gonna keep shooting my 6.5 CM and if this GT turns out pretty satisfactory I foresee another build in my future. We’ll see though.
For sure man. Just depends what qualities appeal to you the most. My guns are reallly heavy 28” MTU in weighted chassis so a creedmoor recoils like most peoples BRs to begin with haha. I love everything about the creedmoor, except barrel life.... my creedmoor pushes a dtac at 3080 and it’s actually crazy how much less wind I hold than those shooting BR cases with Berger’s on windy days.
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