Rifle Scopes Is this really what it has come to for S&B?

[MACHTECH]

What is up with the horrible resale prices on S&B right now? I have one that I can't seem to give away??? Is it really that bad out there, or is there just too much new stuff on the market?

I really just thought everyone could use a little laugh today. Have a great weekend!

Todd

 

[spife7980]

Thats a good looking red ryder!

Could use a cantilevered mount though to get enough eye relief.

 

[pmclaine]

what rail did you use to mount it?

 

[diverdon]

If your giving it away, PM me and I'll give it a good home.

 

[powdahound76]

I’ll give you $6. Can mail cash today.
Let me know and I will send extra for shipping and insurance.


Wait. Send me the serial # so I can verify it aint some knockoff POS before I part with my hard earned cash.

 

[MACHTECH]

Didn't use a rail. Just stuck it up there close to make it look like it was mounted. I've had that gun for 47 years believe it or not!

 

[pmclaine]

Didn't use a rail. Just stuck it up there close to make it look like it was mounted. I've had that gun for 47 years believe it or not!

Time for a rebarrel.......

 

[goatboy]

Oh oh oh, did you torque the mount to the rail at 45 inch-pounds?

 

[AIAW]

Hope that's in MOA, because it's more accurate. And it's a Daisy - American pride right there. Can't be using that metric crap.

Sigh.

 

[W54/XM-388]

The problem with trying to sell it right now is that while the S&B 5-25x56 scope is still a top tier scope that is actually currently an amazing value, it is no longer the new cool flavour of the day, especially if it doesn't have one of the new cluttered cool grid or Christmas tree reticles.

It doesn't help that Mile High had a falling out with S&B and cleared out their stock at cost so that kind of got everyone who was buying them bought.

I was trying to sell a brand new in box one, then just decided might as well keep it, or sell it locally when someone needs a good setup.

I'd by yours just to have more spares, (but I'll wait till it's a fair bit less), as I still buy them anytime someone wants to move them at a crazy low price, since I'm not as picky about cosmetics as most on ones I'm actually going to use.

I still recommend the S&B 5-25x56 scope as a really superb performance / value / reliability option for those looking to get into the high end.

 

[Basher]

I just picked up a 4-16x42 PMII P4F for an AR15 SPR build, or else I'd have picked yours up already!

Everybody jumps all over the new hotness and forgets about proven tech. Aside from a Gen2 Razor w/ EBR-7C I'm waiting for, all my other optics are older (USO SN3 and ST10, both w/ GAP, the S&B mentioned above, Aimpoint T1 4MOA). They all seem to run just fine for me. Indian vs arrow thing, really.

 

[myronman3]

^ not always a bad thing. folks want to dump their “old” gear so they can get the newest, latest, greatest....that just opens the door for us oportunists.

 

[patriot07]

Kahles, Minox, ATACR all offer better reticles and similar glass for $2200-$2500.

Vortex offers glass that's a hair below with good reticles for $1600-$1700 used.

S&B sits right in between those 2 with good glass and very outdated reticles. About where it should be. Going to be significantly less with a disabled illumination feature (someone else selling one like that - not you).

 

[JPOPS]

Fine. I guess I’ll say it if no one else will. You’ll shoot your eye out

 

[patriot07]

The real issue driving down scope prices, IMHO, is stuff like the Cronus with near-alpha glass for $1k or the BTR for a couple hundred more with near-alpha glass and good turrets and modern reticles. Razor Gen 2 isn't helping any of these $2k-$3k scopes either with alpha-level glass, good turrets, and modern reticles for under $2k.

Personally, if I was going to go past the $2k mark, I'd just get a TT. Anything above that is very difficult to justify with the Cronus, Razor, Stryker, etc. out there. Are the $2k-$3k scopes better? Sure. Are they twice as good...not really, especially with outdated reticles.

 

[M8541Reaper]

I'm actually in the market for an S&B for a GAP M40A3... But I'm deployed right now and in the middle of an upcoming PCS with the family. The new GR2ID reticle looks cool and I am looking at pre-ordering it but if we move abroad then I won't be shooting for a few years. If we stay in the states then do I go with an H59 or T3 and pick one up in the PX section for an awesome price? DECISIONS!!!

But yea, it seems to be a buyer's market. If I wasn't here right now, I'd have already ordered three of them at the prices I've seen lol.

 

[RedRyder]

I don't have anything to contribute other than my screen name.

 

[YF12A]

For me, it is about the arrow vs the Indian, all of my arrows are better than this old senior citizen. Since joining this site I have recently purchased a couple of new scopes ( from Hide vendors ) and I have been amazed at the glass and the reticles, especially for the price, for sale now compared to just 10 years ago. Will I be able to use more scope than an Athlon or a Vortex? I will not know until I can shoot through some of the Alpha glass, hopefully in the near future. The TT, love what I hear and see, but it is 2/3 the price of a particular used Ducati I have my old eyes on. I also have to feed my 1911 and rimfire addiction so something has to wiggle. Love this site and it has definitely made me a better and educated shooter, thank you all.

 

[Ravenyzf-r6]

Watch that recoil, you’re gonna get a black eye!!!

 

[Luvman]

I’ve wanted an AI AT with a 3-20 PM2 on top since the AT launched in ‘14. I have the AT. It’s currently wearing a 3-18 razor.

I’ve run across your ad multiple times. Part of me wants to try a fire sale on some stuff to pick it up. But to be really honest I HATE the tunneling from 5-7 on the 5-25. With the prices or the 5-25 market lately I may just have to get over it.

 

[YF12A]

Forgot to ask, what brand and model silencer are you planning on using on this magnum?

 

[Glassaholic]

What a great post Mach, that really got me to laugh. Just looked up your scope and that is a crazy good price, but to be honest I think what has hurt S&B resale values is Schmidt & Bender themselves, a couple years ago they dropped the price across the board on all their scopes in the US, most likely because they weren't selling due to all the competition these days. I sold my S&B Ultra Short 3-20 last year, it took over a month and I had to keep doing price drops and was shocked because a few months before it seemed like they were selling for about $300 more than what I could get. I think part of the issue is there are so many options in the classifieds these days there is much more competition especially if what you're selling is not the flavor of the day. I am on the verge of ordering another Schmidt 3-20 with the new MSR2 reticle and wondering how much of a hit I'll take in selling my Kahles K318i. To quote from Bill Clinton, "I feel your pain."

 

[Wyfox]

Tax season is around the corner, I think if you're patient It will sell for your current asking price without issue. I just sold a 5-25 P4f for 2100, it sold in a day. Just takes the right buyer to see it. I bought a 5-20 Ultra Short off here recently for $2200, hence why I sold the 5-25.

 

[steve123]

I bought S&B at exactly the wrong time frame, when it was the highest! That really pissed me off that S&B dropped their prices!

If the H59 is antiquated, lol..... Now the new hotness is .2 mil reticles, and rightly so. Busy - my ass!

Oh well, guess I'm stuck with these horrible scopes till the new ones are $6000 or so and resale is more in line with what I paid.

As it is, the $500-$850 range scopes are fine for the lesser rifles anyway.

 

[W54/XM-388]

As it is, the $500-$850 range scopes are fine for the lesser rifles anyway.

That's about the price of a top shelf scope mount these days.

 

[pmclaine]

They are selling so cheap that maybe I can convince my wife that rather than sell the unused 5-25X I have and lose money I should probably buy another rifle and keep it.

 

[steve123]

That's about the price of a top shelf scope mount these days.

It must be time to "go be poor" on my own rifles, lol.

 

[thejeep]

Is that a buck or full size?
I’ve got 3 that need glass and I can’t decide between s&b or ncstar.

 

[JFComfort]

I just started running a 5-25x PM II. I have other good scopes like my Kahles, Hensoldt & Leupold but am really liking the Schmidt.

 

[Shanerbanner10]

Prices are crazy on Schmidts. I've seen MTC LT's with H2CMR's for 2k$ and sell as much as 3200$. Honestly if you're patient and either a buyer or seller someone will pick it up eventually almost regardless of what its priced at.
DT's i've seen as low at 1750$ with P4LF. Really just depends on reticle and feature and as silly as it sounds color.

 

[patriot07]

That's about the price of a top shelf scope mount these days.

There will always be products that cater to people with more money than sense.

 

[W54/XM-388]

There will always be products that cater to people with more money than sense.

I take it you haven't checked out the adjustable ELR scope mounts or the high end of the Sphur or ERA-TAC ones.
Sometimes you do need better tools for what you want to do.

 

[DellaDog]

IMO, 3 reasons, all aesthetic and revised in recent “tier 1” scopes.

1. The 3rd knob.
2. OAL at 16+ inches.
3. Reticle choices.

 

[ThePretzel]

Just bought a S&B recently and saw a bunch of them on the firing line at a match I attended this morning. If you have no need for the latest and greatest reticle (which is another revision of the same tree reticles that have been around for a while), then the PMII is a great value. I like the Tremor3, so the S&B has all the reticles I need or want anyways.

The problem, for sellers anyways, is that you can't attract high prices without the new and shiny. When people all want to try something that just came out, or is more recent, the prices will go up while the prices on the old standby go down. Once the new reticles and scopes have been circulating around for a while prices will "normalize" again until the new hot thing is released and the cycle will continue.

Specifically I imagine your issue has a lot to do with selling right around the time SHOT Show rolled around. That's when everybody is offloading their old gear to upgrade or try something new that they saw announced or released for this year, and when everybody sells the prices go down thanks to supply and demand.

 

[patriot07]

Just bought a S&B recently and saw a bunch of them on the firing line at a match I attended this morning. If you have no need for the latest and greatest reticle (which is another revision of the same tree reticles that have been around for a while), then the PMII is a great value. I like the Tremor3, so the S&B has all the reticles I need or want anyways.

The problem, for sellers anyways, is that you can't attract high prices without the new and shiny. When people all want to try something that just came out, or is more recent, the prices will go up while the prices on the old standby go down. Once the new reticles and scopes have been circulating around for a while prices will "normalize" again until the new hot thing is released and the cycle will continue.

Specifically I imagine your issue has a lot to do with selling right around the time SHOT Show rolled around. That's when everybody is offloading their old gear to upgrade or try something new that they saw announced or released for this year, and when everybody sells the prices go down thanks to supply and demand.

Just curious - what is the MR4, Mil-C, or SKMR3 a revision of in the S&B lineup?

 

[blbennett1288]

I will admit that one of the reasons I have never seriously considered S&B when purchasing a new scope is because of their reticle selection. They only ones I find appealing are the H2CMR and Gen2XR, which are both fairly dated and due for a upgrade.

The LRR-Mil had promise but is too fine and busy with the ranging and mag portions.

The new GRID is too much like the H59

I cant help but think S&B missed the mark on what the overwhelming majority are looking for in a reticle; SKMR, MPCT, MIL-C

What is old is new again and simpler less busy x-mass tree reticles seem to be where we are headed.

 

[ThePretzel]

Just curious - what is the MR4, Mil-C, or SKMR3 a revision of in the S&B lineup?

They are simply different variants of the tree reticles, including Gen 2 XR, H59, and Tremor3. Each different tree reticle has pros and cons, with the Gen2XR being sparse (some love it, some hate it), the H59 and T3 being loaded with measurements/information (some love it, some hate it) and the reticles like the SKMR3 falling somewhere in the middle. S&B currently doesn't have that middle ground in a tree reticle yet, and I personally think they missed the mark if that's what they were aiming for with their new grid reticle.

The middle ground kind of tree reticle is the "new hotness" that everybody wants to have and try, while still (in my opinion) being a revision of other tree reticles that preceded them.

 

[JFComfort]

Not to get off subject here but I think you can say the same thing about Kahles price wise, but they have always had solid reticles IMO.

 

[patriot07]

They are simply different variants of the tree reticles, including Gen 2 XR, H59, and Tremor3. Each different tree reticle has pros and cons, with the Gen2XR being sparse (some love it, some hate it), the H59 and T3 being loaded with measurements/information (some love it, some hate it) and the reticles like the SKMR3 falling somewhere in the middle. S&B currently doesn't have that middle ground in a tree reticle yet, and I personally think they missed the mark if that's what they were aiming for with their new grid reticle.

The middle ground kind of tree reticle is the "new hotness" that everybody wants to have and try, while still (in my opinion) being a revision of other tree reticles that preceded them.

IMHO, clearly the market has headed towards a floating dot/crosshair, .2 mil wind holds on the main line and preferably on the tree also, and trying to be as unobtrusive as possible. S&B hasn't really tried to achieve any of this with their offerings until the LRR-Mil, which is a really poor attempt.

Essentially, the market caught up to them both in terms of optical performance and build quality, passed them up by a mile in reticle design, and under-cut them on price. That's why it got cheap - not because people want something "new and shiny". I honestly believe that if a company came out tomorrow and released the exact S&B lineup under a different name without the S&B reputation, they'd struggle to sell enough scopes to stay in business. It's S&B's reputation that's keeping them in business now, not their value proposition in the marketplace.

 

[jbell]

I shot only PMII's for years, back when they were all the money. When NF came out with the ATACR F1 scopes I dumped my Benders for the NF's and was happy. As of late I have been shooting the new tree style reticles and honestly hate them for my style of shooting. I mainly shoot alone so I have to spot my own impacts and it seems that the damn tree is covering the impact area when I am off target. It pisses me off. I have now gone full circle and am back into a PMII P4F (which is what my first Bender was, back when the P4F was the best option), it does everything I want and for me a little more than the tree reticles b/c I have so much more uncluttered field of view. Funny how things go...

 

[W54/XM-388]

I shot only PMII's for years, back when they were all the money. When NF came out with the ATACR F1 scopes I dumped my Benders for the NF's and was happy. As of late I have been shooting the new tree style reticles and honestly hate them for my style of shooting. I mainly shoot alone so I have to spot my own impacts and it seems that the damn tree is covering the impact area when I am off target. It pisses me off. I have now gone full circle and am back into a PMII P4F (which is what my first Bender was, back when the P4F was the best option), it does everything I want and for me a little more than the tree reticles b/c I have so much more uncluttered field of view. Funny how things go...

You are not alone in that, I've heard others also commenting that the more "busy" reticles can make spotting your own misses a bit harder.

 

[patriot07]

I shot only PMII's for years, back when they were all the money. When NF came out with the ATACR F1 scopes I dumped my Benders for the NF's and was happy. As of late I have been shooting the new tree style reticles and honestly hate them for my style of shooting. I mainly shoot alone so I have to spot my own impacts and it seems that the damn tree is covering the impact area when I am off target. It pisses me off. I have now gone full circle and am back into a PMII P4F (which is what my first Bender was, back when the P4F was the best option), it does everything I want and for me a little more than the tree reticles b/c I have so much more uncluttered field of view. Funny how things go...

One of the reasons I love the SKMR - floating dot, .2 mil wind holds, extremely uncluttered

 

[smokeon]

I second what's been mentioned here so far.

S&B is fantastic glass - no arguments there, but they've been resting in their laurels for too long now.
Especially in the "reticle department".

Either they catch a wake up soon or they may very well be left far behind by all the many other scope manufacturers producing similar glass & a far better reticle selection...IMHO.

 

[Steel+Killer]

I love my S&B 5-25 PMII and I love that nobody can tell me "well its just another private label scope made by LOW to company XYZ's specs" like 75% of most other scopes.
All S&B has to do is make a PMIII with updated features and most people wouldn't be able to pull their CCs out fast enough to get one.....and I think S&B probably knows it.

 

[lte82]

Everyone says they want a tree reticle, but unless a MD makes you do a no-dial stage nobody uses them. Why? If they were really that beneficial, why are we all still dialing elevation? And if we are dialing for elevation, why put up with all of the distraction and clutter below the aiming point? Resale value? Because the next guy literally buys it because of perceived resale value too? No ones going to want it unless it has a tree? I'm at a disadvantage by not having a reticle that's been released in the last 3 years? Literally people complaining about a reticle because it is "growing long in the tooth", like after some time the usefulness of a reticle degrades over time like siding on your house? A Horus option in the Razor 2 is "new" because it's never been done before, yet it's been offered in the S&B for so long, clearly it needs a new option now. Lolol

 

[jbell]

Everyone says they want a tree reticle, but unless a MD makes you do a no-dial stage nobody uses them. Why? If they were really that beneficial, why are we all still dialing elevation? And if we are dialing for elevation, why put up with all of the distraction and clutter below the aiming point?

I have tried many different tree style reticles and have given them all a very fair attempt to learn them, but I find that I am not as fast as when I simply dial and hold wind. If I am trying to hold elevation and wind (even after quite a lot of time using the reticle) I find myself questioning my hold if I am going fast, meaning I stop and count. When I dial elevation and hold wind I feel much more confident just having to work on 1 axis and don't find myself counting or missing because I am 1 section off.

Maybe I am just too simple to become more proficient holding both elevation and wind, so I dial...

 

[steve123]

We are all different, prefer different things, stages are different, time limits are different, target sizes are different.

So you use what works for you.

I've used the H59 with it's ,2's just fine in field course matches off the bipod prone, both dialing or for holdovers and holdoffs. I've found what works for me. I just adapt for the situation.

From what I've read it's much easier to see misses here in the dry west than out east, maybe that's why you struggled to see where the misses went??

 

[lte82]

I have tried many different tree style reticles and have given them all a very fair attempt to learn them, but I find that I am not as fast as when I simply dial and hold wind. If I am trying to hold elevation and wind (even after quite a lot of time using the reticle) I find myself questioning my hold if I am going fast, meaning I stop and count. When I dial elevation and hold wind I feel much more confident just having to work on 1 axis and don't find myself counting or missing because I am 1 section off.

Maybe I am just too simple to become more proficient holding both elevation and wind, so I dial...

Exactly. Tree reticles are the BDC of the PRS world... not useless, but mostly not used at all other than to help sell product.

 

[MOUNTIC]

I'm hoping S&B adopts the MSR2. Been waiting to pick up another S&B for some time once they bring that reticle abord I'll snag one. I did the whole tree reticle thing for a while and ended up going back to more basic reticles.

 

[carlm338]

I'm hoping S&B adopts the MSR2. Been waiting to pick up another S&B for some time once they bring that reticle abord I'll snag one. I did the whole tree reticle thing for a while and ended up going back to more basic reticles.

FinnAccuracy lists some S&B's (5x25 PMII and 3-20 US PMII) for sale with the MSR2 but I'm not sure they are available in the states yet...
https://finnaccuracy.com/collections/msr-msr2-rifle-scopes?page=1

- Carl