is this throat work acceptable?

[exoto1225]

I recently ordered a 308 barrel processed from a Bartlein 4 groove blank. At this point, I don't want to reveal the name of the company. But I received the barrel today and immediately examined it with my bore scope. The throat seems concerning: each of the lands at the throat showed at least some degrees of machine marks. In addition, in the second image, you can see this rifle land's transition is not smooth at all. In the third image, the transition of the two adjacent rifle lands is not consistent - judged from the bore scope, the three rifle lands' throats look deeper than the last one.
Should I be concerned and sent this back? This is supposed to be a precision rifle build. I don't think the throat is looking very good compared to my Wintac AI barrels. My 3 Wintac barrels have a very smooth transition in the throats, with no machine mark at all.

 

[Bacarrat]

I would shoot it and see.

 

[KnowNothing256]

Here for the inevitable "This is why borescopes are dumb" / "If it shoots who cares" / "Name the smith or gtfo" comments.

 

[NBPRP]

First off it would be advisable to contact who or whom you purchased the barrel from and find out what they did or how they "processed" the Bartlein barrel. That may explain a thing or two.

Secondly, borescopes tend to show imperfections that are minimal in their effect on accuracy.

Thirdly, if what you are concerned about, truly originated at Bartlein, Frank Green most likely will address the issue in a clear, concise and professional manner.

Fourthly it is considered 'Bad Form" to air ones grievances in a public forum prior to addressing the matter with who/whom most likely has the ability to make things right.

And Fifthly (is that even a word?) the barrel is pure crap, not worth the trouble even to use it as a handle on a bottle jack to jack up your car/truck. Your need to send it to me right away before the poor workmanship of it infects all the other firearms in your gun save. Bwahahahaaaa, just kidding you should be fine with what you have. Don't consternate over what is not important.

 

[Threadcutter308]

Borescopes are great ! What other tool known to man could do such a great job of facilitating a self fulfilling prophecy ?

In other words, you've looked, you're now bothered by what you (think you) see, but you have yet to shoot it ? How much do you think your (now) pre-existing bias is going to affect your ability to shoot the barrel accurately ?

I've got news for you, the majority of my barrels (Bartlein, Kreiger and Lilja) look a lot worse than yours, but they all shoot lights out. Funny thing is, I shot them all (and established highly accurate baselines) before ever even owning a borescope. Once I did look, I thought "huh, I wonder if what I'm seeing is affecting the barrel's accuracy ?" (That's sarcasm BTW).

Do like many others have done and put your borescope in the back of the bottom drawer of your toolbox to gather dust and just go shoot the barrel. Sadly, borescopes have helped to create a lot of boogeymen when/where they didn't previously exist.

 

[Pete B]

Borescopes serve a important purpose, but should mainly be used in adentifying an issue; in conjunction with an observed operational concern.
As stated, go put some rounds down range....... It is the only thing that will tell you

 

[exoto1225]

Borescopes are great ! What other tool known to man could do such a great job of facilitating a self fulfilling prophecy ?

In other words, you've looked, you're now bothered by what you (think you) see, but you have yet to shoot it ? How much do you think your (now) pre-existing bias is going to affect your ability to shoot the barrel accurately ?

I've got news for you, the majority of my barrels (Bartlein, Kreiger and Lilja) look a lot worse than yours, but they all shoot lights out. Funny thing is, I shot them all (and established highly accurate baselines) before ever even owning a borescope. Once I did look, I thought "huh, I wonder if what I'm seeing is affecting the barrel's accuracy ?" (That's sarcasm BTW).

Do like many others have done and put your borescope in the back of the bottom drawer of your toolbox to gather dust and just go shoot the barrel. Sadly, borescopes have helped to create a lot of boogeymen when/where they didn't previously exist.

I would disagree with you. I own 3 Wintac Bartlein barrels for my AT and one factory AI 308 barrel that came with it (I believe it's made by Lothar Walther). None of these barrels have a throat cut like this. All these barrels with AI logo shoot lights out (sub 3/8moa). I got this one about the same price range and also made-to-order, so I don't think being a little upset and concerned about this situation is me overreacting.

also I don't think it's wrong to at least see what people think of this before reaching out to the maker, because who knows what they'll say? I have had the experience to be fooled by someone who blames me for something he did wrong. That's why I post this here. If this throat is not good to the opinions of gs here, I will request to send it back at least with some ideas. otherwise, I will keep the barrel and no drama.
BTW, thanks for the suggestion from another member, I have reached out to Frank and am curious to see what his opinions are.

 

[Threadcutter308]

Good luck.

 

[camocorvette]

Just shoot the damn thing. If it doesn't shoot then you have an issue.

 

[cas6969]

A chambering or throating reamer wouldn’t only leave marks down in the grooves. I think you said the quiet part loud and the loud part quiet.

 

[holy cow]

I will never own a bore scope. The only way to ever know is go shoot it with quality ammo or work up a load if you roll your own. Over many years of loading for some different calibers their are always 2 or 3 go to powders to use for each caliber to use. Some good quality bullets seating depth and power charge will let you know what's going to work best.

 

[Edds]

I would disagree with you. I own 3 Wintac Bartlein barrels for my AT and one factory AI 308 barrel that came with it (I believe it's made by Lothar Walther). None of these barrels have a throat cut like this. All these barrels with AI logo shoot lights out (sub 3/8moa). I got this one about the same price range and also made-to-order, so I don't think being a little upset and concerned about this situation is me overreacting.

also I don't think it's wrong to at least see what people think of this before reaching out to the maker, because who knows what they'll say? I have had the experience to be fooled by someone who blames me for something he did wrong. That's why I post this here. If this throat is not good to the opinions of gs here, I will request to send it back at least with some ideas. otherwise, I will keep the barrel and no drama.
BTW, thanks for the suggestion from another member, I have reached out to Frank and am curious to see what his opinions are..

There is always some Parrot that comes along and says " hows it shoot" but that doesn't change the fact that you are looking at a poor chambering job.

Here is an example of a good chambering job.

Videos | wheeleraccuracy

www.wheeleraccuracy.com

 

[exoto1225]

There is always some Parrot that comes along and says " hows it shoot" but that doesn't change the fact that you are looking at a poor chambering job.

Here is an example of a good chambering job.

Videos | wheeleraccuracy

www.wheeleraccuracy.com

exactly. Btw, That is how all my Wintac bartlein barrels look, the transition is very smooth, no machine marks at all. I paid premium price for this, and I find it unacceptable regardless how it shoots

 

[Andrew863]

Pic 3 is slightly concerning to me. If it were mine I would contact the company or person that chambered it and just see what they have to say. It may shoot lights out but I would just see what the opinion is and go from there.

 

[Pete B]

Pic 3 is slightly concerning to me. If it were mine I would contact the company or person that chambered it and just see what they have to say. It may shoot lights out but I would just see what the opinion is and go from there.

Not questioning your opinion, but if it did infact shoot lights out, exactly would you be after? It just seems to be more expedient to shoot it, result crap, THEN take your concerns of the chamber AND the fact it is shooting sub par to the smith.
Unhappy with the machining, don't use his services again, whether it shoots or not, but if it shoots why fuck with it?

 

[Hennig]

Thats what she said.

 

[AccuSol-ERN]

Thats a bummer. The throat being "off-center" is the most concerning part. If the barrel is off the action, try to drop a factory 308 round in it. It SHOULD drop in fully......or at least until bullet/throat contact. Typically, when throats/chamber are off-center they won't allow a round to drop in and out freely.

I've also seen throats off enough that you can literally look through the bore and see the end of the freebore "edge" that gets thicker on one side and disappears on the opposite side. Or you can clearly see a rifling land the reamer freebore should have removed. In my experience, these problem chambers are really finicky to load for and can cause bullet blowups (on more sensitive jacket bullets.....i.e. Hornady).

I don't think any builder is above a mistake, I know I am not. So give them the chance to take care of you and move forward.

Like I have said in the past, budget borescopes are the thorn in the sides of some builders while others are going to keep on truckin like normal.

Ern

 

[AllenOne1]

With one land showing slightly longer or shorter than the other three I would be concerned that the chamber is just slightly off center. I have a barrel like that I'm running now and have never thought that it shot to the full potential of the barrel blank. But, it could just be me shooting it and thinking that it could do better.

I think that the centerline could be verified to be inline with the bore with the proper measuring tools. You might want to ask your gunsmith if he would be willing to reverify it for you. Mistakes happen.

 

[918v]

Borescopes are great ! What other tool known to man could do such a great job of facilitating a self fulfilling prophecy ?

In other words, you've looked, you're now bothered by what you (think you) see, but you have yet to shoot it ? How much do you think your (now) pre-existing bias is going to affect your ability to shoot the barrel accurately ?

I've got news for you, the majority of my barrels (Bartlein, Kreiger and Lilja) look a lot worse than yours, but they all shoot lights out. Funny thing is, I shot them all (and established highly accurate baselines) before ever even owning a borescope. Once I did look, I thought "huh, I wonder if what I'm seeing is affecting the barrel's accuracy ?" (That's sarcasm BTW).

Do like many others have done and put your borescope in the back of the bottom drawer of your toolbox to gather dust and just go shoot the barrel. Sadly, borescopes have helped to create a lot of boogeymen when/where they didn't previously exist.

How eccentric does the chamber have to be before it starts to affect accuracy?

 

[AccuSol-ERN]

How eccentric does the chamber have to be before it starts to affect accuracy?

That is the golden question. There are too many variables to say for certain. I have been in too many arguments on here to take a side. I will say that you will never convince me that an off-center chamber/throat/freebore/whatever will shoot BETTER than a straight one.

Not a true "measurement" but I will say that any off-center amount that doesn't allow a factory round or a good reload to go in/out of a new/clean chamber easily has a good chance of effecting accuracy.

Ern

 

[918v]

That is the golden question. There are too many variables to say for certain. I have been in too many arguments on here to take a side. I will say that you will never convince me that an off-center chamber/throat/freebore/whatever will shoot BETTER than a straight one.

Not a true "measurement" but I will say that any off-center amount that doesn't allow a factory round or a good reload to go in/out of a new/clean chamber easily has a good chance of effecting accuracy.

Ern

A good gunsmith who takes his time will cut a visibly concentric chamber that will make the customer happy.

 

[AllenOne1]

How eccentric does the chamber have to be before it starts to affect accuracy?

How concentric to you want your ammo to be .002/.004/.006? It seems these would go hand in hand. Concentric chamber combined with concentric ammo should produce good results.

 

[AccuSol-ERN]

How concentric to you want your ammo to be .002/.004/.006? It seems these would go hand in hand. Concentric chamber combined with concentric ammo should produce good results.

Yeah it makes me laugh when I see guys brag about their new geewhiz press and minimal ammo runout..... but say "stop being a borescope bitch and just shoot it" when asked about a chamber like the above.

Fortunately you have some case sizing induced slop that works in your favor with ammo lining up in the chamber. Thats why I say if the chamber misalignment isn't enough to cause a "bind" it is acceptable......although not perfect. Keep in mind you are literally talking about +.0005" TOTAL freebore diameter vs bullet diameter...... it doesn't take much to put things in a bind or be visible by naked eye.

Ern

 

[Threadcutter308]

A good gunsmith who takes his time will cut a visibly concentric chamber that will make the customer happy.

You do realize that the reamer itself defines concentricity, right ? (assuming that the 'smith has dialed in the bore to the lathe with the minimum amount of runout).

If the bore of the barrel is not dialed in to the headstock of the lathe properly, that's about the only way to get a chamber that's "out of concentricity". And, even that's difficult to do.

 

[918v]

You do realize that the reamer itself defines concentricity, right ? (assuming that the 'smith has dialed in the bore to the lathe with the minimum amount of runout).

If the bore of the barrel is not dialed in to the headstock of the lathe properly, that's about the only way to get a chamber that's "out of concentricity". And, even that's difficult to do.

It doesn’t matter. If you spend that much on a barrel the chamber should be perfect.

 

[AccuSol-ERN]

You do realize that the reamer itself defines concentricity, right ? (assuming that the 'smith has dialed in the bore to the lathe with the minimum amount of runout).

If the bore of the barrel is not dialed in to the headstock of the lathe properly, that's about the only way to get a chamber that's "out of concentricity". And, even that's difficult to do.

That is incorrect.

Even a mis-dialed in barrel will not end up like the above.......the reamer will just act like a boring bar and cut a larger hole (Another issue I have seen regularly, look at the amount of swell just above the case web). Assuming you are machining in a traditional way (spinning barrel and dead reamer).

A grossly undersized pilot may have been an issue here but I doubt it. Bore sizes are a known and very consistent in a Bartlein. You can pretty much guarantee a great bushing fit in a Bartlein by going .0002-.0004 under land size.

The chambering issue above is common (especially in 5R) and can be minimized with particular methods while chambering. Nuff said.

Ern

 

[Threadcutter308]

That is incorrect.

Even a mis-dialed in barrel will not end up like the above.......the reamer will just act like a boring bar and cut a larger hole (Another issue I have seen regularly, look at the amount of swell just above the case web). Assuming you are machining in a traditional way (spinning barrel and dead reamer).

A grossly undersized pilot may have been an issue here but I doubt it. Bore sizes are a known and very consistent in a Bartlein. You can pretty much guarantee a great bushing fit in a Bartlein by going .0002-.0004 under land size.

The chambering issue above is common (especially in 5R) and can be minimized with particular methods while chambering. Nuff said.

Ern

Yeah, bullshit.

Once again, the latest “borescope” thread proves to be nothing but a colossal pain in the ass, just like every one in the last 10 years.

If anything, I’m disappointed in myself for even diving in to the deep end.

OP, go ahead and send your “shitty” barrel back to the smith for a refund.

Colossal waste of time.

 

[168BTHPM]

Yeah, bullshit.

Once again, the latest “borescope” thread proves to be nothing but a colassal pain in the ass, just like every one in the last 10 years.

If anything, I’m disappointed in myself for even diving in to the deep end.

OP, go ahead and send your “shitty” barrel back to the smith for a refund.

Colossal waste of time.

Is this still available? AFAF

 

[Threadcutter308]

Is this still available? AFAF

F
U
K
2

 

[168BTHPM]

F
U
K
2

U 2pid Phuk Ewe Too

 

[Edds]

The chambers in the link I provided may have been cut with the pilot bushing removed.

 

[AccuSol-ERN]

This thread is awesome.

You do you man.

Cheers.

Ern

 

[Threadcutter308]

U 2pid Phuk Ewe Too

E
A
T

M
E

 

[exoto1225]

This thread is awesome.

You do you man.

Cheers.

Ern

indeed, lol. Again, thank you for your valuable info. I have reached out to the gs who did this with this concern. Let’s wait and see how they want to handle this.

 

[just browsing]

JFC, being a gunsmith should be a pre-req to owning a borescope at this point. Holy hell.

 

[RTH1800]

Regardless of what the pro ignorance, anti bore scope folks post it’s not all about “how’s it shoot”? It’s also about how’s it going to shoot in 1000/2000/3000 and more rounds. A crankshaft with a poorly fitted bearing might run fine today but that bearing could spin or gall down the road.
No substitute for doing things correctly.

 

[Frank Green]

That is incorrect.

Even a mis-dialed in barrel will not end up like the above.......the reamer will just act like a boring bar and cut a larger hole (Another issue I have seen regularly, look at the amount of swell just above the case web). Assuming you are machining in a traditional way (spinning barrel and dead reamer).

A grossly undersized pilot may have been an issue here but I doubt it. Bore sizes are a known and very consistent in a Bartlein. You can pretty much guarantee a great bushing fit in a Bartlein by going .0002-.0004 under land size.

The chambering issue above is common (especially in 5R) and can be minimized with particular methods while chambering. Nuff said.

Ern

Ern, Don't see issues with the 5R or any other type of rifling that we chamber barrels here etc....

The OP's barrel is a 4 groove.

Also Ern you are correct our bore sizes are very consistent. Thanks for the nice comments!

Later, Frank

 

[Frank Green]

First off it would be advisable to contact who or whom you purchased the barrel from and find out what they did or how they "processed" the Bartlein barrel. That may explain a thing or two.

Secondly, borescopes tend to show imperfections that are minimal in their effect on accuracy.

Thirdly, if what you are concerned about, truly originated at Bartlein, Frank Green most likely will address the issue in a clear, concise and professional manner.

Fourthly it is considered 'Bad Form" to air ones grievances in a public forum prior to addressing the matter with who/whom most likely has the ability to make things right.

And Fifthly (is that even a word?) the barrel is pure crap, not worth the trouble even to use it as a handle on a bottle jack to jack up your car/truck. Your need to send it to me right away before the poor workmanship of it infects all the other firearms in your gun save. Bwahahahaaaa, just kidding you should be fine with what you have. Don't consternate over what is not important.

We didn't chamber the barrel. We made the blank only. No threading etc...

Yes you should contact the gunsmith first etc...

Borescopes are good and bad.....Most people don't have a clue as to what they are looking at. Just last week we had two different customers call us complaining about pitting in the bore or porosity in the steel. One guy wanted us to have the barrels shipped back on our dime just for us to look at them. We got in almost heated argument over it and told him no pitting or porosity in the steel. You don't know what your looking at!!!!

Told both guys to run a couple of patches down the bore and look at them again. So both customers where stand up in the end...they called us back and said sorry! All the pits where gone after they patched out the barrel. Just dust/lint or solvent in the barrels.

Later, Frank

 

[Frank Green]

I recently ordered a 308 barrel processed from a Bartlein 4 groove blank. At this point, I don't want to reveal the name of the company. But I received the barrel today and immediately examined it with my bore scope. The throat seems concerning: each of the lands at the throat showed at least some degrees of machine marks. In addition, in the second image, you can see this rifle land's transition is not smooth at all. In the third image, the transition of the two adjacent rifle lands is not consistent - judged from the bore scope, the three rifle lands' throats look deeper than the last one.
Should I be concerned and sent this back? This is supposed to be a precision rifle build. I don't think the throat is looking very good compared to my Wintac AI barrels. My 3 Wintac barrels have a very smooth transition in the throats, with no machine mark at all.

Pic 1 are what I would call bushing marks from the pilot on the reamer. Are they bad? Hard to say. Might look worse then what they really are.

Pic 2 and 3. Again I don't have the barrel in front of me...so hard to say if it's how the borescope is being held/indexed but it would appear that the throat doesn't stop in the same spot on the lands. Also it looks like the reamer is starting to leave a burr in the throat as well. Could've been in the set up....causing the issues and or how the reamer was ground or how many times has the reamer been used.

Pic 4 kind of goes back to pic 2. How the reamer was ground or how many times it was used leaves the finish questionable looking.

Before you shoot it...I would call the gunsmith/shop up and talk to them before you do anything.

Next step would be to shoot it. If it shoots good and the barrel doesn't foul bad etc...don't fret over it too much. The throat area of the chamber is the only thing you break in on a good barrel. The reamer cuts opposite direction of bullet travel. The nicer the reamer cuts (nicer the finish) the faster this area polishes and breaks in / settles down etc....

If it doesn't shoot good and you have fouling issues....then you have problems for sure.

Give the gunsmith a call....that's the first stop.

Any questions or problems give me a shout.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[exoto1225]

Pic 1 are what I would call bushing marks from the pilot on the reamer. Are they bad? Hard to say. Might look worse then what they really are.

Pic 2 and 3. Again I don't have the barrel in front of me...so hard to say if it's how the borescope is being held/indexed but it would appear that the throat doesn't stop in the same spot on the lands. Also it looks like the reamer is starting to leave a burr in the throat as well. Could've been in the set up....causing the issues and or how the reamer was ground or how many times has the reamer been used.

Pic 4 kind of goes back to pic 2. How the reamer was ground or how many times it was used leaves the finish questionable looking.

Before you shoot it...I would call the gunsmith/shop up and talk to them before you do anything.

Next step would be to shoot it. If it shoots good and the barrel doesn't foul bad etc...don't fret over it too much. The throat area of the chamber is the only thing you break in on a good barrel. The reamer cuts opposite direction of bullet travel. The nicer the reamer cuts (nicer the finish) the faster this area polishes and breaks in / settles down etc....

If it doesn't shoot good and you have fouling issues....then you have problems for sure.

Give the gunsmith a call....that's the first stop.

Any questions or problems give me a shout.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

Thank you, Frank and everybody who tried to help here! I reached out to this company last night, and this morning I heard back from them. Apparently, the owner of the shop was not happy after seeing those pics. He wants to take this barrel back and apologized for this situation. I'm going to send this barrel back today after work and see how things go from there.

 

[exoto1225]

We didn't chamber the barrel. We made the blank only. No threading etc...

Yes should contact the gunsmith first etc...

Borescopes are good and bad.....Most people don't have a clue as to what they are looking at. Just last week we had two different customers call us complaining about pitting in the bore or porosity in the steel. One guy wanted us to have the barrels shipped back on our dime just for us to look at them. We got in almost heated argument over it and told him no pitting or porosity in the steel. You don't know what your looking at!!!!

Told both guys to run a couple of patches down the bore and look at them again. To both customers being stand up in the end...they called us back and said sorry! All the pits where gone after they patched out the barrel. Just dust/lint or solvent in the barrels.

Later, Frank

I totally understand your point, Frank. I've look through a lot of dirty and high-mileage barrels using borescope. Trust me, I can tell the differences. Compared this barrel with my Wintac bartlein barrels that I knew were made right, I found that the throat on this one look nothing like those, that's why I asked for opinions in the first place. My 6.5x47 lapua Wintac bartlein barrel has ~2200 rounds through it and has some degree of throat erosion. BTW, the accuracy is still amazing. However, even with all the firing cracks+carbon fouling, this used Wintac barrel throat looks better than the one in the pic. It is not visibly crooked or full of machine marks at all, just firing cracks.
The amount of cash I paid for this barrel is enough to buy a new, nice hunting rifle, so I want perfection. If it's a 100 dollar barrel with same issues, I won't care a bit.

 

[exoto1225]

oops

 

[exoto1225]

oops

 

[AccuSol-ERN]

Ern, Don't see issues with the 5R or any other type of rifling that we chamber barrels here etc....

The OP's barrel is a 4 groove.

Also Ern you are correct our bore sizes are very consistent. Thanks for the nice comments!

Later, Frank

Your welcome Frank, just being honest about Bartlein's consistency.

I agree there is nothing wrong with a 5R barrel, in my experience they need to handled a little differently when chambering. This may very well be an issue I see ONLY with my chambering setup too.

I only offer my opinion because I used to have the same issue unknowingly...... then it hit me square in the face and I figured out a better way.

Ern

 

[Frank Green]

Your welcome Frank, just being honest about Bartlein's consistency.

I agree there is nothing wrong with a 5R barrel, in my experience they need to handled a little differently when chambering. This may very well be an issue I see ONLY with my chambering setup too.

I only offer my opinion because I used to have the same issue unknowingly...... then it hit me square in the face and I figured out a better way.

Ern

No sweat Ern!

Later, Frank

 

[Baron23]

the owner of the shop was not happy after seeing those pics. He wants to take this barrel back and apologized for this situation.

Gee....bet you're glad you didn't listen to the "just shoot it crowd".

I'm glad the smith is a stand up guy and will...hopefully...make you 100% whole on this deal.

And I personally think we are fortunate to have @Frank Green and @AccuSol-ERN as resources on this board...but hey, I'm a suck up so what do I know! haha

Cheers

 

[Pete B]

Gee....bet you're glad you didn't listen to the "just shoot it crowd".

I'm glad the smith is a stand up guy and will...hopefully...make you 100% whole on this deal.

And I personally think we are fortunate to have @Frank Green and @AccuSol-ERN as resources on this board...but hey, I'm a suck up so what do I know! haha

Cheers

100% right, if he had shot it first and it had no issues that would have been a major drama!
Plus we all know once you shoot a barrel, no stand up guy/smith is going to be interested in rectifying the issue.

Mate there was always two choices, the OP posted for opinions, he got some. It should never have been seen as a pissing contest.
Hope it all works out for him and it ends up being a hammer
Have a good day

 

[NBPRP]

Frank, no Dis to you, in my response, it sounded like some other entity got their hands on one of your barrels, did something to it and then the OP received it.

What he received may have been or most likely was altered once it left your shop and not a reflection of you workmanship.

I did not post to offend. Don't currently need a barrel but no need for me to burning any bridges of spread ill will in anyone who is a potential/future customer.

 

[Frank Green]

Frank, no Dis to you, in my response, it sounded like some other entity got their hands on one of your barrels, did something to it and then the OP received it.

What he received may have been or most likely was altered once it left your shop and not a reflection of you workmanship.

I did not post to offend. Don't currently need a barrel but no need for me to burning any bridges of spread ill will in anyone who is a potential/future customer.

I didn't take it in a bad way at all brother!

All cool!

Later, Frank