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Gunsmithing Is torque wrench mandatory for barrel swap

Jmccracken1214

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  • Dec 10, 2018
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    Thomasville, NC
    I’m getting a fixed shoulder prefit for my tikka, I’ve got an action wrench but not an internal action wrench. Am I safe to just use the external action wrench to tighten the action on? I’ve done a lot of work on vehicles/equipment and have a fairly good idea to be “close” to let’s say, 80 ft lbs by hand.
     
    Torque wrench not at all required. I just use a breaker bar and lean into it. Some people just crank them on as tight as they can by hand and don't have issues, if you've got right-hand twist even this should be fine.
     
    Torque wrench not at all required. I just use a breaker bar and lean into it. Some people just crank them on as tight as they can by hand and don't have issues, if you've got right-hand twist even this should be fine.
    Good to hear, I figured get it snug and lean into it a tad with the action wrench will have me somewhere between 80-100ft lbs, which should be fine.
     
    Yeah. Ever tried removing a factory Remington barrel? Someone said the secret to TacOps’ amazing accuracy/repeatability is super high barrel torque. I don’t know if that’s true but the point is you probably can’t overdo it with normal tools and you can probably get away with hand-tight if you are of average strength. I use 50 ft/lbs on an impact action all the time and I’ve never had trouble.
     
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    I normally shoot for 100 ft-lb at install, just to have a repeatable number to target in the future. But for most men, leaning into it as you would a wheel lug will be sufficient. You simply need to be right enough to present unintended loosening. It's nearly impossible to go too tight.
     
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    Good to hear everyone.

    Are go/no go gauges needed for fixed shoulder installs ?
    I have a set for the prefits that I typically install but after checking and not having any trouble with about five of them in a row, I’ve basically stopped checking it. I also buy barrels from reputable barrel shops. On one hand better safe than sorry on the other hand it’s probably not necessary assuming you get your barrels from someplace other than “Uncle Shady’s tractor supply and sometimes barrel chambering“.
     
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    Hot take - headspace doesn't matter for competent handloaders. I say this super-seriously and not seriously at all, simultaneously.

    My advice used to be that one should have both go and no-go gages. But @LongRifles Inc. suggested something very smart a few weeks ago - stick a small piece of solder on the rear face of a go gage and measure it after closing the bolt, and then you can actually obtain a parametric measurement of the headspace.
     
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    Hot take - headspace doesn't matter for competent handloaders. I say this super-seriously and not seriously at all, simultaneously.
    Assuming your chamber was cut to something resembling “normal“ size, yes. But for verifying that the chamber was not cut too long, on initial install of the barrel, I think it matters.
     
    Might be a good question to ask the barrel manufacturer, i.e., what would be the consequences (if any) to under or over-tightening the barrel. As stated above, the factory barrel is installed by an over-caffeinated level 25 frost giant on a Monday morning so I wouldn't be concerned with the action.
     
    I have 3 barrels for one Tikka with 3/4" flats on the end so I can swap barrels with a crows foot and a torque wrench. I have checked headspace from 30-100 ft/lbs and in between. Never had any issues.
     
    Assuming your chamber was cut to something resembling “normal“ size, yes. But for verifying that the chamber was not cut too long, on initial install of the barrel, I think it matters.

    To be clear, I'd never let a gun out of my shop without verifying that headspace is within established limits, and I don't advocate anyone operating a firearm that falls outside such limits. But applying critical thinking to this hypothetical situation may result in some conclusions that differ from conventional wisdom.
     
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    I have 3 barrels for one Tikka with 3/4" flats on the end so I can swap barrels with a crows foot and a torque wrench. I have checked headspace from 30-100 ft/lbs and in between. Never had any issues.

    You shouldn't get any meaningful variation with properly-machined parts and the range of torque achievable with normal hand tools. Stretching a 1-1/16"-16 thread isn't easy.

    I think that a consideration for some users would be to provide sufficient prevailing torque as to withstand attempts to remove muzzle devices.
     
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    I normally shoot for 100 ft-lb at install, just to have a repeatable number to target in the future. But for most men, leaning into it as you would a wheel lug will be sufficient. You simply need to be right enough to present unintended loosening. It's nearly impossible to go too tight.

    I do the same.

    However, @Jmccracken1214, there's not really a need to hit a specific torque number. See the Jacob Bynum video above.

    I do it because its a variable I can easily control when I swap barrels, not because I need to.
     
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    6sqmyc.jpg



    Legit, who doesn’t have a torque wrench?
     
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    I'll put in my experience... If you put it on with less than 15-20 ft-lb, you might experience POI shift from banging the barrel around.

    For accuracy in a controlled environment, literally hand-tight is plenty-- like 5-15ft-lb, but I don't necessarily trust it in a match in and out of barricades. Whatever torque you can put on it by holding the stock in your feet and wrenching the barrel on with a flat on the barrel is sufficient, IMO, to get the job done and be pretty resistant to side impacts.

    What I typically do anymore is (I'm guessing) 60-100 ft-lb by feel with a breaker-bar and and action wrench using a SAC vise.

    You can lose a couple thou of headspace by torquing a barrel on. .002-.003" IME
     
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    Do you care about accuracy and repeatability? How about just hand tighten your action screws and scope rings as well.

    You can change POI and grouping by changing the torque value. We used to see it all the time building accursed AR's, each one was tested to figure out which setting provided the best accuracy.

    You have a $5K most likely 10K+ gun plus all the other thousands in shooting accessories, reloading, travel plus time and people want to fuck around and assume hand tighten is good? A vise is , action wrench and torque wrench is like $150. Its a tank of gas.

    Buying a good action and barrel does not require go/no go gauges. What most think are good are shit. Be selective who you source parts from.

    Want your brass to last?

    Actual fucking retardation at work here gentlemen.
     
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    Mounted my viper barrel vice, got everything tightened up and put the wheeler #1 wrench on (top piece flipped upside down)

    tighten it down and both bolts strip out...... what a piece of shit.
    How many threads were engaged? Are you sure the bolts are long enough? Just asking, because I've seen a lot of reviews where the bolts were too short.
     
    Been using a Viper barrel vice for about 5 years. I have pull Remington 700 and AI factory barrels without issue. When I install a barrel I do a three stage torque 35 FP than 65 FP and a final to 90FP. I torque the bolts on the viper to 50 FP.
     
    Do you care about accuracy and repeatability? How about just hand tighten your action screws and scope rings as well.

    You can change POI and grouping by changing the torque value. We used to see it all the time building accursed AR's, each one was tested to figure out which setting provided the best accuracy.

    You have a $5K most likely 10K+ gun plus all the other thousands in shooting accessories, reloading, travel plus time and people want to fuck around and assume hand tighten is good? A vise is , action wrench and torque wrench is like $150. Its a tank of gas.

    Buying a good action and barrel does not require go/no go gauges. What most think are good are shit. Be selective who you source parts from.

    Want your brass to last?

    Actual fucking retardation at work here gentlemen.

    Tightening a barrel is far less critical than scope rings. Fine line between loose scope ring screws and pulled threads with small fasteners, especially for the inexperienced. Barrel torque really isn't that big of a deal. The brass lasting comment shows you don't understand how little the headspace varies when talking 50 ft lbs vs 100 ft lbs on barrel torque.
     
    Tightening a barrel is far less critical than scope rings. Fine line between loose scope ring screws and pulled threads with small fasteners, especially for the inexperienced. Barrel torque really isn't that big of a deal. The brass lasting comment shows you don't understand how little the headspace varies when talking 50 ft lbs vs 100 ft lbs on barrel torque.
    We arent talking about 50 to 100 there superstar. You aren't getting 50 or even 25 with just hand tightening. If you throw a breaker bar on there and go to town you can easily go over 150 ftlbs if you aren't a pussy. Good chance of wrecking the threads and helping them gall.

    There is no repeatable way unless you use a TR so you are going to have different headspace, even if its just a thou or two, it will wreck your brass and be enough to have potential sizing issues.

    What we know about barrel harmonics, you may also see POI shift and groups opening up as a result.

    People can use 30-50-70-100 or 150 for all I care. As long as they do the same value each time, there should be no issues.

    This would be like people saying you don't need to use a torque wrench on wheel lugs. Just hand tighten. Then when their vehicle turns into a tricycle at 70 mph they realize how fucking dumb they actually are.

    The fact this has to be explained on a site decided to precision rifles just shows how stupid some of the people here are.

    If you are going to be dumb you better be tough.
     
    Asking for a friend, is TR short for Torque wRench?

    Craziest thing... I went out and checked my car that I've never in my life used a torque wrench to put the lug nuts on.. and sure enough I only have 3 wheels. fuck me.

    If only he knew how few shops use a torque wrench on lug nuts and how many don't get their aluminum wheels retorqued after a few miles like recommended. Most wheel off situations on big trucks and trailers is from hub assemblies improperly installed...
     
    If only he knew how few shops use a torque wrench on lug nuts and how many don't get their aluminum wheels retorqued after a few miles like recommended. Most wheel off situations on big trucks and trailers is from hub assemblies improperly installed...
    ANY shop who does not do this is waiting to get sued into the ground. My pops owned a chain of auto repair shops and torque sticks at a minimum were always used. I grew up around ASE master techs so whatever inbred sister fucking retard mechanics you know, are just that. Its not that uncommon to see a car on the side of the road with a wheel missing and lots of damage to that quarter panel. Wonder how that happens?

    I was lucky enough to have this happen to me, as a passenger. Girlfriends car went into shop for brakes when we were in college. Picked car up and the next day we were on an entrance ramp getting to highway when it started shaking violently, she was able to slam the brakes and pull over before getting up to speed. Every single stud but one was ripped off with about half a nut worth a thread on there. You know what happened? Mechanic never torqued the nuts. In less than a few dozen low speed miles, they all vibrated themselves loose. They ended up eating the $3500 worth of damage and repairs because not torquing the nuts is virtually the ONLY way for that to happen. Now if someone would have died, they would be looking at bankruptcy and the owners assets being seized because most bonds and insurance polices do not go over $1M. They could also be looking at criminal negligence depending on area and how froggy the DA is.

    Now that we are far off topic, you are as wrong about this as barrel torque.
     
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    ANY shop who does not do this is waiting to get sued into the ground. My pops owned a chain of auto repair shops and torque sticks at a minimum were always used. I grew up around ASE master techs so whatever inbred sister fucking retard mechanics you know, are just that. Its not that uncommon to see a car on the side of the road with a wheel missing and lots of damage to that quarter panel. Wonder how that happens?

    I was lucky enough to have this happen to me, as a passenger. Girlfriends car went into shop for brakes when we were in college. Picked car up and the next day we were on an entrance ramp getting to highway when it started shaking violently, she was able to slam the brakes and pull over before getting up to speed. Every single stud but one was ripped off with about half a nut worth a thread on there. You know what happened? Mechanic never torqued the nuts. In less than a few dozen low speed miles, they all vibrated themselves loose. They ended up eating the $3500 worth of damage and repairs because not torquing the nuts is virtually the ONLY way for that to happen. Now if someone would have died, they would be looking at bankruptcy and the owners assets being seized because most bonds and insurance polices do not go over $1M. They could also be looking at criminal negligence depending on area and how froggy the DA is.

    Now that we are far off topic, you are as wrong about this as barrel torque.


    One thing I've learned about the internet is not to argue with someone that should have been swallowed.

    I'm done with this discussion.
     
    We arent talking about 50 to 100 there superstar. You aren't getting 50 or even 25 with just hand tightening. If you throw a breaker bar on there and go to town you can easily go over 150 ftlbs if you aren't a pussy. Good chance of wrecking the threads and helping them gall.

    You're not hurting a 1 1/16"-16 Class 3 thread at 150 ft-lbs, or even double or triple that value. It's not particularly easy to casually obtain a potentially harmful level of barrel torque, given the lack of tooling features to do so. You'll spin the barrel (which I remind you is round and thus tends to spin in the vise) or damage the receiver and/or receiver wrench well before the barrel threads are at risk of harm.

    Since you want to apply your knowledge of automotive repair, please consider that the little lugs on my van are 14.5x1.5 mm (way smaller diameter and similar pitch to a standard R700 tenon), and carry a recommended torque of 165 ft-lb. They don't gall or break, despite dozens of torque cycles over their life. It's also not a torque value that will be casually exceeded by most men, although my dad was a diesel mechanic who thought that 150 ft-lb was a good spec for the pickle jar lid and maybe that's also the case for everyone else in this thread.

    I understand that one of the requirements of maintaining the Loudmouth Asshole persona requires diligently weighing in on a nuanced discussion with overwhelming certainty that is based upon irrelevant experience. but this is one of those times where you could likely find easier pickings in a different conversation. Hint: find something that's subjective and non-technical, or at least one in which guys like @kthomas haven't already contributed.
     
    You're not hurting a 1 1/16"-16 Class 3 thread at 150 ft-lbs, or even double or triple that value. It's not particularly easy to casually obtain a potentially harmful level of barrel torque, given the lack of tooling features to do so. You'll spin the barrel (which I remind you is round and thus tends to spin in the vise) or damage the receiver and/or receiver wrench well before the barrel threads are at risk of harm.

    Since you want to apply your knowledge of automotive repair, please consider that the little lugs on my van are 14.5x1.5 mm (way smaller diameter and similar pitch to a standard R700 tenon), and carry a recommended torque of 165 ft-lb. They don't gall or break, despite dozens of torque cycles over their life. It's also not a torque value that will be casually exceeded by most men, although my dad was a diesel mechanic who thought that 150 ft-lb was a good spec for the pickle jar lid and maybe that's also the case for everyone else in this thread.

    I understand that one of the requirements of maintaining the Loudmouth Asshole persona requires diligently weighing in on a nuanced discussion with overwhelming certainty that is based upon irrelevant experience. but this is one of those times where you could likely find easier pickings in a different conversation. Hint: find something that's subjective and non-technical, or at least one in which guys like @kthomas haven't already contributed.
    not 100% necessary but they can be obtained fairly cheep. You really should own one.
     
    This is a really entertaining thread! Lots of laughs this morning. I will say when I swapped my barrel, I picked up a needle/scale $14 needle torque wrench from Autozone. I had one of the click variety, but it was old and I wasn't confident in its calibration anymore. Watching youtube videos I learned that the old-style torque wrenches with a needle and scale are just as accurate as the click variety and maybe more so. Anywho, that's me. You do you.
     
    You would be surprised that one of the largest most well known rifle companies on this site doesn’t use torque wrenches when installing barrels. They use a longer T handle action wrench. They screw action on until it touches barrel shoulder, then put in action wrench, go to touch and then back off about 1/4-1/2 turn and slam it tight. Done. Was told that once the action and shoulder meet you aren’t compressing steel on steel so it’s tight.

    That said I use a needle type torque wrench I had for years and just go to about 60 ft/lbs. don’t think any specific is needed but that’s where I settled.
     
    Was told that once the action and shoulder meet you aren’t compressing steel on steel so it’s tight.

    You will, .002" give or take from snug to 100 ft-lb usually. Obviously this varies with thread fit and even material. Applied force always causes compression or tension and the material will respond accordingly, even if it's several decimal places behind the zero. Metals act like rubber, just on a sliding scale of young's modulus.

    Torque specs are great, don't get me wrong, but there are applications where it's absolutely critical to have specific values, and there are applications where it doesn't really matter as long as it's tight enough and the fastener is amply strong enough to handle the broad range of acceptable clamping force that will keep shit together. The other thing is that a torque spec is a back-calculated value to achieve a clamping force, but the coefficient of friction between the threaded parts makes a significant difference in the torque necessary to achieve said clamping force. A small burr, a tiny piece of debris in the threads, lube/no lube, lube types etc. are all going to throw clamping force one way or another with the exact same torque applied. If you want to follow dogma for the sake of your mental state, go nuts. Real-world, for the game we're playing, "enough clamping force to hold it in place" is enough, and anything extra is bonus.

    Scope rings- Torque specs to keep even force on all screws and keep from crushing the tube-- great idea!

    Barrel into receiver- You don't posses the necessary gumption to hurt anything. As long as it stays snug and aligned it's going to shoot. Only concern really is if you're super variable... like hand tight vs. all you got, you might need to bump your size die up or down a couple thou to keep cases fitting like a guy wants. But if you bust out the breaker bar and do 40 ft-lb one day and 70 the next, I really doubt you're going to see any perceptible change.
     
    You will, .002" give or take from snug to 100 ft-lb usually. Obviously this varies with thread fit and even material. Applied force always causes compression or tension and the material will respond accordingly, even if it's several decimal places behind the zero. Metals act like rubber, just on a sliding scale of young's modulus.

    Torque specs are great, don't get me wrong, but there are applications where it's absolutely critical to have specific values, and there are applications where it doesn't really matter as long as it's tight enough and the fastener is amply strong enough to handle the broad range of acceptable clamping force that will keep shit together. The other thing is that a torque spec is a back-calculated value to achieve a clamping force, but the coefficient of friction between the threaded parts makes a significant difference in the torque necessary to achieve said clamping force. A small burr, a tiny piece of debris in the threads, lube/no lube, lube types etc. are all going to throw clamping force one way or another with the exact same torque applied. If you want to follow dogma for the sake of your mental state, go nuts. Real-world, for the game we're playing, "enough clamping force to hold it in place" is enough, and anything extra is bonus.

    Scope rings- Torque specs to keep even force on all screws and keep from crushing the tube-- great idea!

    Barrel into receiver- You don't posses the necessary gumption to hurt anything. As long as it stays snug and aligned it's going to shoot. Only concern really is if you're super variable... like hand tight vs. all you got, you might need to bump your size die up or down a couple thou to keep cases fitting like a guy wants. But if you bust out the breaker bar and do 40 ft-lb one day and 70 the next, I really doubt you're going to see any perceptible change.

    You can fight that out with them but seeing as they have been doing it over 20 years now I’m not going to doubt them either. .002” seems like a lot to me but not a smith.
     
    not 100% necessary but they can be obtained fairly cheep. You really should own one.

    I don't know who you're trying to reply to, but if it's me, then please understand that I have a few thousand dollars invested in torque wrenches.

    And while a torque wrench can be obtained fairly cheap, the performance may very well reflect that price. When it comes to installing a quality shouldered pre-fit barrel, anyone who's successfully changed a tire on a roadside can get it tight enough but not too tight.
     
    You can fight that out with them but seeing as they have been doing it over 20 years now I’m not going to doubt them either. .002” seems like a lot to me but not a smith.

    I suspect that 0.002" is also on the high side for Class 3 threads and trued shoulders - my experience is that once the shoulders touch, there's not much movement up to normal torque values. Factory barrels might very well change more from snug to tight (technical terms, I know).
     
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    You can fight that out with them but seeing as they have been doing it over 20 years now I’m not going to doubt them either. .002” seems like a lot to me but not a smith.
    Really good write up off of Accurate shooter for the math. I didn't verify the math, but I know this discussion has been repeated on here and from what I remember, it was very similar results.

    Screenshot_20220909-055013_Samsung Internet.jpg
     
    .002 is enough to have a round chamber or not chamber based on where you bumped. Also, depending on who cut the barrel, what action you are using and if any work was done to the action, you may or may not have a concentric threading that fully seats the barrel on the recoil lug. The surface finish could also effect this value. If you aren't using a good anti seize, go crank on 150lbs plus stainless on stainless and let us know how that works out for you.

    There are steps and measures we take to ensure we get the optimal performance of the system. A properly torqued barrel that can be repeated is one of of them.

    There are enough "bad" smiths out there I always hear recommended (Yet have examples of them doing terrible work), I would be interested in learning which shop Rob is talking about. We are very selective about who we let build our guns and chamber our barrels for this reason. 100% function is the primary and secondary goal.
     
    You're not hurting a 1 1/16"-16 Class 3 thread at 150 ft-lbs, or even double or triple that value. It's not particularly easy to casually obtain a potentially harmful level of barrel torque, given the lack of tooling features to do so. You'll spin the barrel (which I remind you is round and thus tends to spin in the vise) or damage the receiver and/or receiver wrench well before the barrel threads are at risk of harm.

    Since you want to apply your knowledge of automotive repair, please consider that the little lugs on my van are 14.5x1.5 mm (way smaller diameter and similar pitch to a standard R700 tenon), and carry a recommended torque of 165 ft-lb. They don't gall or break, despite dozens of torque cycles over their life. It's also not a torque value that will be casually exceeded by most men, although my dad was a diesel mechanic who thought that 150 ft-lb was a good spec for the pickle jar lid and maybe that's also the case for everyone else in this thread.

    I understand that one of the requirements of maintaining the Loudmouth Asshole persona requires diligently weighing in on a nuanced discussion with overwhelming certainty that is based upon irrelevant experience. but this is one of those times where you could likely find easier pickings in a different conversation. Hint: find something that's subjective and non-technical, or at least one in which guys like @kthomas haven't already contributed.
    You should probably stop talking.

    The materials between your lugs and the studs are generally a dissimilar metal, and even if they aren't, its not stainless which has a much higher risk of galling. What do you think a common barrel and action is made of?
     
    I've literally seen Jacob Bynum use a crescent wrench and a hammer. He has flats milled on his barrels to quickly change them out. Soooo does a specific torque amount really matter? Look at WTO switch lug, your screw them on hand tight. Same with all other quick change actions. I mean to each their own but I thing some of yall are thinking inside of a small box.
     
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    IMG_20220909_111504004.jpg


    Informal test time... I have a bighorn tl3 with a shouldered 6.5 creedmoor barrel. I also have a GO gauge from a wildcat I did a while back that has the creedmoor body/shoulder geometry but is roughly .075" shorter on headspace. I grabbed a few chunks of lead and smooshed them between that guage and the bolt face as a sort of comparator for change in headspace at different torque values.

    Hand snug- .0742
    80ft-lb- .0736
    120ft-lb- .0731

    So about a thou. I know I've seen .002 or nearly that going from the lathe to final assembly before, but that may not be necessarily representative of swapping a barrel that's already been mounted before.
     
    You should probably stop talking.

    The materials between your lugs and the studs are generally a dissimilar metal, and even if they aren't, its not stainless which has a much higher risk of galling. What do you think a common barrel and action is made of?

    What vehicle uses dissimilar metals for the lug nuts and studs? :ROFLMAO: I mean, there are some ways to poke holes in my arguments, but that's not one of them. Steel-on-steel is about as common as it gets for bolted joints.

    Galling is corrected by appropriate clearance and proper application of coatings and/or anti-seize compounds, and not by being scared of tightening a bolted joint to ~15% of the yield torque.
     
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