Is Uncle Sam buying up all the 22lr ammo??

[JG26_Irish]

I was at the range this weekend and was chatting with a very knowledgeable former Olympic match shooter about rimfire ammo. He remains fairly well connected in the shooting sports, especially in the rimfire match suppliers, coaches and movers and shakers. He claimed that he spoke to a fellow at Shot Show who had first hand eye-witness knowledge of US Gov't owned 10 acre (est) warehouses full of 22lr ammo, to be used for training both military and gov't security forces. A court of law would call this hearsay. I usually take such claims with a grain of salt. However, where there is smoke...

So, I know that many on this forum are former military or have friends or family who are on active duty. Or who may know others serving with Homeland Security or other groups like FBI, Treasury, ATF, etc. My question is this:

1.) Is the US Gov't currently using 22lr for marksmanship training? (discount the hunter safety courses which have always used 22's for as long as I recall.)
2.) If so, which weapon systems are using 22lr? i.e. M16/AR15 22lr adapters? Complete dedicated 22lr Semi-autos? 22lr bolt action rifles? Other?
3.) Which agencies? and is this a change or increase from past practice?

I know that US Army has used 22lr bolt action rifles in the past for training in a limited scope and DCM has long sold off older surplus rifles such as old Mod 52's, Kimber 82G's and others. Still, I wonder if my buddy is correct? I am told that gov't contracts take priority over all others for ammo suppliers. If this is true and there is an increase in gov't demand for 22lr, it could partially explain the shortage from domestic suppliers such as Federal, Winchester and CCI. Just looking for some independent data that either supports or denies his claims.

Irish

 

[3wide]

No

 

[BoilerUP]

If Unkie was hoarding 22LR on the taxpayer dime...there'd be procurement contracts somewhere on the interwebs saying as much...to say nothing of military folks, federal LEOs, etc. going on the internet talking about training with 22s instead of duty weapons.

Did he have a first-hand eyewitness location for these warehouses?

 

[bobtodrick]

No...it's us.
I was in my local gunshop this weekend to purchase a couple of hundred rounds of .22WMR.
Another fellow walked up to the counter with 14 bulk paks of .22LR...three different brands, all they had on the shelf.
The clerk joked that he must be planning a major shoot.
"nope, just buying everything I can find just in case" was the reply.
Jakwad!!

 

[DocUSMCRetired]

When I was younger, we never kept large amounts of .22LR on hand. We just bought a couple boxes on the days we were going to shoot. Maybe picked a couple up at a gun show. Maybe. The problem is people are hording. Not small amounts either. Some people are sitting on 30,000 rounds in fear that .22LR will disappear (don't see this happening). When I was younger, I knew a lot of .22 shooters. Now guys are going in buying thousands of dollars worth at a time. Most of the stores around here limit you to 200 rounds a week, or a month. Ive even seen guys standing outside offering pay people 5 or 10$ fees if they will pick them up two more boxes (happened outside academy a couple weeks ago). Its getting out of hand, and hopefully it one day stabilizes.

 

[thagunshow]

Maybe when everyone gets there closets full of ammo the the stores will start to gain some momentum on getting this back on the shelf. When this happens and people see they can once again walk in the day they want to shoot and get ammo this craze will end and hopefully the market will get folded with all the ammo that has been stocked piled and prices will drop, just like we are starting to see with the ar15's

 

[Hoser]

That is some funny shit.

Have your buddy add a layer or two to his tinfoil hat.

 

[kennyhollingsworth]

Well, I know for a fact the Air Force uses .22 LR for training in basic. Converted M16 platforms. However, I put no stock in the rumor of the govt buying it all up.

 

[was21]

Now if they would start buying up all the tinfoil then nobody could figure out what they were doing!
just sayin

 

[2Shots]

Heard a rumor the other day at a gun shop they were bringing in truckloads of rimfire every day into crane naval and destroying it. No idea if its true or not.

 

[Donr13]

I heard they are flying shuttles each day to the moon for .22lr storage

 

[ddavis]

Read in a magazine recently that manufacturers don't make much on rimfire, and barely break even. They don't raise the prices because during normal times, people aren't willing to pay a whole lot for it. Think about it; before this hoarding BS, it was always on the shelf, and if it was over $20 a brick for blasting ammo, you thought twice about buying it. For this reason, they have been concentrating on centerfire ammo, where they make money. The major manufacturers have not increased production on rimfire, but kept it constant. This makes sense to me. The stuff is still being distributed, but the hoarders snap it up as soon as it hits the shelves. They are CREATING the shortage and keeping it that way. Don't tell me people aren't hoarding either. I have a family member who is one of them. He doesn't think twice about buying ammo until it looks like he won't be able to get it, and then he is willing to pay almost anything for it. It's silly but we have all types in our hobby.

 

[DocUSMCRetired]

Here is what ATK has to say about it: The current market and environment is causing stronger than usual demand for products in our industry. The current increase in demand is attributed to the civilian market. Our facilities operate 24-hours a day. We are continually making process improvements to increase our efficiency and investing in capital and personnel where we have sustained demand. We are bringing additional capacity online again this year"

 

[JG26_Irish]

So only US Air Force is using 22lr in converted M16 platforms for basic training? OK. I know that many guys have purchased 22lr AR15 look alike rifles to either train with or to play with. Those semi autos will burn thru tons of ammo fast and are not accurate enough to be fun shooting bench rest groups with. Sounds like my buddy's story is just BS. I have heard of massive military and gov't procurement of center fire ammo but not rimfire. I was having doubts believing that they would use much 22 outside of the training realm. All of my recent contacts in the military spoke only of shooting 5.56 and 7.62mm rds or larger. Nobody talked of 22lr. Just wanted to reach out to others to confirm. The shortage mindset once triggered, is tough to switch off. Many shooters are buying larger quantities of 22lr and other ammo. Just because it is harder to find. Center fire supply has rebounded here in recent months but I have not seen any 22lr in the stores since October. Walmart gets a handful of boxes almost every week (so I am told) but it sells within a few minutes of hitting the shelves. I bought an air rifle. It goes "Poof" instead of "Bang".

Irish

 

[Frank Green]

I say no! I've talked to guys that do ammo testing for the gov't etc.....and they cannot even get ammo. With that being said it was just estimated that the U.S. market alone needs 17 billion + rounds a year! I know for a fact that a two to three ammo makers here in the States cannot produce that much currently. I was also told by one maker they cannot get raw material in fast enough to run the .22rf line 7 days a week. Think about it! Demand suddenly goes thru the roof! You have to get your raw material suppliers up to speed and if you can do that do you add equipment and if you do that you also have to be buying/scheduling more test barrels for testing etc.....more than just one thing gets effected! Can you get the mining companies to get you more brass, more lead, more copper etc.....

Also keep in mind there are only one or two places that manufacture certain chemicals that go into the powder/priming compounds as well. There is only X amount of time and other supplies available on a moments notice and manufactures are only going to add major capital investments in machinery and employees when money and time permit.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[DocUSMCRetired]

So only US Air Force is using 22lr in converted M16 platforms for basic training? OK. I know that many guys have purchased 22lr AR15 look alike rifles to either train with or to play with. Those semi autos will burn thru tons of ammo fast and are not accurate enough to be fun shooting bench rest groups with. Sounds like my buddy's story is just BS. I have heard of massive military and gov't procurement of center fire ammo but not rimfire. I was having doubts believing that they would use much 22 outside of the training realm. All of my recent contacts in the military spoke only of shooting 5.56 and 7.62mm rds or larger. Nobody talked of 22lr. Just wanted to reach out to others to confirm. The shortage mindset once triggered, is tough to switch off. Many shooters are buying larger quantities of 22lr and other ammo. Just because it is harder to find. Center fire supply has rebounded here in recent months but I have not seen any 22lr in the stores since October. Walmart gets a handful of boxes almost every week (so I am told) but it sells within a few minutes of hitting the shelves. I bought an air rifle. It goes "Poof" instead of "Bang".

Irish

I would just like to share this photo with you. This is my Smith and Wesson Performance Center 15-22. This is one of the targets towards the end of the barrel break in process. The flier you see was accounted for. Its a cold, clean bore shot. The rest is a 5 shot group at 100 yards, with CCI Standard Velocity. I would say this is more than accurate enough. Bear in mind as well this was shot from lead sled. Also its double the cost of a normal AR in .22LR not including glass.

 

[BoilerUP]

I would just like to share this photo with you. This is my Smith and Wesson Performance Center 15-22. This is one of the targets towards the end of the barrel break in process. The flier you see was accounted for. Its a cold, clean bore shot. The rest is a 5 shot group at 100 yards, with CCI Standard Velocity. I would say this is more than accurate enough. Bear in mind as well this was shot from lead sled. Also its double the cost of a normal AR in .22LR not including glass.

That is exceptional 100yd accuracy from a 22LR, especially an AR22-type rifle shooting "only" CCI SV.

Is that representative of average accuracy, or a cherry-picked group?

 

[DocUSMCRetired]

That is exceptional 100yd accuracy from a 22LR, especially an AR22-type rifle shooting "only" CCI SV.

Is that representative of average accuracy, or a cherry-picked group?

That was average of the group. But the performance center rifles are twice what you pay for a standard AR .22 or even more so I would hope you don't get 10/22 out the box accuracy, which you don't.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

i heard it's the .44's that are eating the .22's so they can get their kicks being .66's

 

[Frank Green]

Also think of this. A gun shop where I use to work has one of the largest hand gun leagues in the country. Take the spring league. Roughly 275 guns and of those approx. 200 are Rimfire shooters. Now shoot 30 rounds for record only. 6000 rounds of just Rimfire one night a week. Now times it by say 12 weeks equals 72,000 rounds. Now add another winter league that makes it come to 144,000. Now throw in one practice relay? 288,000 rounds! I know as I've seen it. I've also seen guys shoot a 100 rounds a week just for practice.

Later, Frank

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

^ that's rimfire spent brass worth savin' for weight turn in.

 

[KUSA]

Here is some for you if you act quick.

CCI Standard Velocity 22 LR 40 GR LRN Brick of 500 Rounds

 

[ZombieMonkey]

As others have said, it's simply not happening. The conspiracies out there about a lot of the shortage are hilarious. As a society we are shooting more than we ever have. Even prior to this shortage 22lr supply had not recovered to where it had been prior to the shortage that came with Obama's first election. What has changed? Ammo manufacturers are making more 22lr than they ever have, but can't keep up with the demand. Think of all of the 22lr pistols and the AR patterned 22's that can chew thru a brick of ammo like nobody's business.

Truth is we are the problem, we have increased demand to the point that it far exceeds supply.

 

[RHunter]

Seems like every time I go to the range there are more people shooting 22lr than anything else.. .223 would be second and the rage is literally paved with fired 22lr brass.

I am sure you have your hoarders but you also have a lot of people shooting it. As expensive as this hobby is getting, even at .10 a round, 22 gives you a lot of play for not a lot of pay.

The guys in my "group" have their plinking stash but that stash was bought when cci mini mags were $4.99 a box.... long before all this BS happened.

A lot of guns have been sold the last few years and a lot of them were 22's.. So a lot of new demand is out there that is not being adequately supplied.

 

[JoeMartin]

So, is Uncle Sam hording ammo? Who knows? One thing for sure is we'll probably never know one way or the other.

 

[Graham]

Is Uncle Sam buying up all the 22lr ammo??

So, is Uncle Sam hording ammo? Who knows? One thing for sure is we'll probably never know one way of the other.

It's more likely to be uncle Elmo.

 

[LanceS4803]

I don't know anything about .22lr, but I did see an amazing amount of 357SIG for the Federal Air Marshals.
This cage contained cases of ammo and I couldn't even begin to tell you how many cases. I'll give you the dimensions of the stack:
7' h x 10' wide x 15' deep

 

[jbell]

I would just like to share this photo with you. This is my Smith and Wesson Performance Center 15-22. This is one of the targets towards the end of the barrel break in process. The flier you see was accounted for. Its a cold, clean bore shot. The rest is a 5 shot group at 100 yards, with CCI Standard Velocity. I would say this is more than accurate enough. Bear in mind as well this was shot from lead sled. Also its double the cost of a normal AR in .22LR not including glass.

Not to derail this thread, but if your rilfe can honestly do this repeatable I would love you shoot BM11 6X5 challenge!! Also what is your rimfire break in process by the way?

 

[anon]

I do wonder what Sam Walton would have done about this. Empty shelves for more than a year?

 

[VTSEAL]

There was a fairly well reasoned post last week from industry insider Matt Reams (VP of Sales at Sierra bullets). I would say that his back of the envelope math may not be accurate; but if it is anywhere in the ballpark then his reasoning makes good sense. Why Can?t I Find .22 LR Ammunition?!?!? | Sierra Bullets Pay attention to the figure he quotes for daily production: "25-30 Million rounds per day". That is a whole lot of ammo being produced and either shot or stuck in people's closets...

The other thing to keep in mind is that the rimfire manufacturing industry is relatively small and configured for steady production with only relatively small incremental swings in demand (say under 10% YOY change). Most industries like this cannot easily deal with disruptive spikes in demand (e.g. demand increases over 15-20% monthly) and quickly become way behind when those spikes are sustained. The immediate spike wipes out several months of on-hand inventory, and new orders cannot be filled after the first month, because the backorder is now growing at nonlinear rate. Same thing happens to the medical industry for example when there is a bad flu season; or toy manufacturers when their toy gets ping'd as the "must-have Christmas toy", or electronics manufacturers when the latest uber-nerd model comes out. The difference is that the demand dries up after a couple of months in those industries, and they can either catch up or their product is now out-dated. When you're selling tons of new guns (lots of them rimfire), and lots of new shooters, that demand has stayed pretty steady and the ammo guys haven't had a chance to catch up, even if they've ramped up manufacturing a bit...

 

[DocUSMCRetired]

Not to derail this thread, but if your rilfe can honestly do this repeatable I would love you shoot BM11 6X5 challenge!! Also what is your rimfire break in process by the way?

I followed the GA Precision break in process. Only exception is 6 rounds instead of 5 when you go to grouping, and I only did 10 single shot passes not 12. I will give the BM11 a go at next time we take it out.

 

[JG26_Irish]

As others have said, it's simply not happening. The conspiracies out there about a lot of the shortage are hilarious. As a society we are shooting more than we ever have. Even prior to this shortage 22lr supply had not recovered to where it had been prior to the shortage that came with Obama's first election. What has changed? Ammo manufacturers are making more 22lr than they ever have, but can't keep up with the demand. Think of all of the 22lr pistols and the AR patterned 22's that can chew thru a brick of ammo like nobody's business.

Truth is we are the problem, we have increased demand to the point that it far exceeds supply.

Zombies quote above as well as others about the supply side of 22lr ammo production is likely parts of the issue. Anytime we elect a President who states publicly that "They can buy all the guns they want, but I will make it impossible for them to get bullets..." and who makes a practice of enacting law by executive fiat, without the support or envolvement of Congress, has a chilling effect on manufacturers who might want to expand production as well as spooking the American public into the belief that our federal gov't might attempt to restrict the supply of ammunition to the people? For an executive to make such radical, un-constitutional statements is rash and irresponsible. It also reveals a mindset that he wants to control things that are not within his granted span of control. Such dictatorial behavior is a red flag to all voters come the next election cycles. Just sayin...

As for the "Gentleman" with the Smith and Wesson Performance Center 15-22 that shoots one hole groups at 100yds???? JBell was gentle in challenging you to go to the range and shoot the six target 5 rd challenge (30rds) that BM11 has on the sticky at the top of the Rimfire forum. Or I would add the 30rd Dot Shoot "So you think you can shoot?" started by JBell using the tgt posted by JustinAmateur. Both are a test of gun/ammo/shooter. 1/4-1/3 moa is possible but it is not easy.

I need to see a few more groups. I do not doubt that you may have shot that group at 100yds but I would like to see more groups on the same tgt at 100yds and 50yds. Sorry but there are too many variables. Lead sled or not. Wind alone at 100yds is capable of moving the bullet several 1/10ths of inches even when it is very light. Let's chalk that group up to luck, random chance. If you disagree, then fire six such groups in a row all on the same tgt and then post them to the forum for score. Shoot the cold bore shot onto another tgt, so we do not have to "Call a flyer". The results will speak for themselves. Am giving you the benefit of the doubt though. I have been in your position, where I claimed a rifle shot better than folks could accept or believe. I understand, it is human nature to question a performance that we cannot come close to equaling (which I cannot). But if your rifle is as good as you claim, it will be able to do similar feats of accuracy and precision over and over again. Please Sir, indulge us.

Respectfully,

Irish

 

[TommyAtkins]

The price of Rimfire has stabilized and is beginning to drop. The asshats who have been at Walmart every morning at 0400 hoarding it are beginning to realize their investment is diminishing, so now they are coming out to dump it while they can. And the people who legitimately bought enough for a safe cushion (5000 rounds) are deciding they can use that money for something else and are selling in the hope of breaking even. As the panic subsides availability will increase.

 

[thagunshow]

The price of Rimfire has stabilized and is beginning to drop. The asshats who have been at Walmart every morning at 0400 hoarding it are beginning to realize their investment is diminishing, so now they are coming out to dump it while they can. And the people who legitimately bought enough for a safe cushion (5000 rounds) are deciding they can use that money for something else and are selling in the hope of breaking even. As the panic subsides availability will increase.

Let's hope this is the case. I believe it to he so.

 

[russ10x]

We are our own worst enemies. Quit hoarding it, mass buying it, and it will be back on the shelves with reasonable prices.

 

[yoteman]

Zombies quote above as well as others about the supply side of 22lr ammo production is likely parts of the issue. Anytime we elect a President who states publicly that "They can buy all the guns they want, but I will make it impossible for them to get bullets..." and who makes a practice of enacting law by executive fiat, without the support or envolvement of Congress, has a chilling effect on manufacturers who might want to expand production as well as spooking the American public into the belief that our federal gov't might attempt to restrict the supply of ammunition to the people? For an executive to make such radical, un-constitutional statements is rash and irresponsible. It also reveals a mindset that he wants to control things that are not within his granted span of control. Such dictatorial behavior is a red flag to all voters come the next election cycles. Just sayin...

As for the "Gentleman" with the Smith and Wesson Performance Center 15-22 that shoots one hole groups at 100yds???? JBell was gentle in challenging you to go to the range and shoot the six target 5 rd challenge (30rds) that BM11 has on the sticky at the top of the Rimfire forum. Or I would add the 30rd Dot Shoot "So you think you can shoot?" started by JBell using the tgt posted by JustinAmateur. Both are a test of gun/ammo/shooter. 1/4-1/3 moa is possible but it is not easy.

I need to see a few more groups. I do not doubt that you may have shot that group at 100yds but I would like to see more groups on the same tgt at 100yds and 50yds. Sorry but there are too many variables. Lead sled or not. Wind alone at 100yds is capable of moving the bullet several 1/10ths of inches even when it is very light. Let's chalk that group up to luck, random chance. If you disagree, then fire six such groups in a row all on the same tgt and then post them to the forum for score. Shoot the cold bore shot onto another tgt, so we do not have to "Call a flyer". The results will speak for themselves. Am giving you the benefit of the doubt though. I have been in your position, where I claimed a rifle shot better than folks could accept or believe. I understand, it is human nature to question a performance that we cannot come close to equaling (which I cannot). But if your rifle is as good as you claim, it will be able to do similar feats of accuracy and precision over and over again. Please Sir, indulge us.

Respectfully,

Irish

not to jack the thread, but irish, i agree.
i shot the 6x5 test some time back, with a witness, i just about shit myself when we walked down to the target,
best i shot with any rifle, but have tryed it again an no where as close.
i tryed the dot drill an did ok, but still, not as good as that perfect day 5x6.
i think now when i try to match that target, i can not control that 6" gray matter between my ears
to many things to keep under control when shooting groups, with a rimfire.


now to OP , no i do not belive the GOV, is buying all the rimfire.(we the people are)
i am seeing more & more of the standed an hi Vel. ammo these day's hitting the shop's
but not the match stuff.(i think we have more matches now for rimfire then ever, an shooters are buying most online so they will have it to shoot in what ever match they shoot, i do)

i hope the good ol days come back.
but from what i hear for the gunshop owner's not soon.
stop an think just how many 22 rifles an pistols are out there (an beening bought every day)
how many here on the hide have more then 1 of each (i do)

 

[JG26_Irish]

Yup, Yotemans score was phenomenal and remains the best on the 100yd 30rd challenge. And he did have witnesses. If any rimfire rifle shoots one hole groups at 100yds, it will be in the hunt for top honors (no small feat) and as Yote himself freely admits, it is not easy to repeat such a performance with any 22lr. It is possible to shoot one group that is amazing, it is a whole lot harder to shoot several in a row, all equally amazing. But to better guage our rifles and shooter performances, we ask for six 5rd groups all fired in a row on the same card, with both average group size and best group size in inches and MOA. This is a test of man and machine and it gets to the heart of what both can do on average as well as that best of the lot group. Try it, it is fun, addictive and very, very difficult to do. Post the results so we can all enjoy your skill and performance.

Irish

 

[rockbox]

I can get the 20 dollar federal ultramatch pretty any time I want at the local Academy. Aguilla is pretty available also. Anything else is a crap shoot.

 

[Prebanpaul]

Read books. Patriots , Expatriots, survivors, founders. Then you can tell me how my 120k rounds of 22 is hoarding. More like a necessity

 

[Geno C.]

Yup, Yotemans score was phenomenal and remains the best on the 100yd 30rd challenge. And he did have witnesses. If any rimfire rifle shoots one hole groups at 100yds, it will be in the hunt for top honors (no small feat) and as Yote himself freely admits, it is not easy to repeat such a performance with any 22lr. It is possible to shoot one group that is amazing, it is a whole lot harder to shoot several in a row, all equally amazing. But to better guage our rifles and shooter performances, we ask for six 5rd groups all fired in a row on the same card, with both average group size and best group size in inches and MOA. This is a test of man and machine and it gets to the heart of what both can do on average as well as that best of the lot group. Try it, it is fun, addictive and very, very difficult to do. Post the results so we can all enjoy your skill and performance.

Irish

Same here. I've tried to duplicate the magical day I was able to lay down a pretty decent score with my shorty Quad but haven't been able to match it. You kinda hate to call a guy out but.... Seeing is. believing around here. Even then we sometimes have a hard time swallowing it.

Walmart here actually has some yellow jackets sitting on the shelf any guys are actually walking by it.

This too shall pass

 

[delixe]

Read books. Patriots , Expatriots, survivors, founders. Then you can tell me how my 120k rounds of 22 is hoarding. More like a necessity

If you are stocking up on .22LR for self defense or a coming revolution, I would suggest you rethink your strategy to include a round that can't be stopped by several layers of thick clothing.

 

[Diablo]

Shhhh! The gov't is stockpiling it for the .22LR mini's on all the new drones they're building.

 

[Prebanpaul]

Again read those before mentioned books, 22 not gold or silver will become the new currency and if not I will have lots and lots of fun shooting it.

 

[BERTMAN77MK2]

Ha! Good reading here---I for 1 cannot pay the high .22 prices and have switched to air rifles for the time being. Even when a youngster, I was given a brick at a time to practice with (with awesome instruction) until I could shoot in any position with a .22 rifle or handgun from 0 to 75yds. I love shooting and a "couple boxes" just doesn't do it for me. Thus I will continue practicing with precision air rifles and handguns. Wish we had a separate thread for the air rifles as most have no idea of the precision available in a modern PCP gun.

 

[yoteman]

How many here on the Hide, own or work at a gun shop.(help me out here)
we get 22 ammo in about every 2 weeks, what ever brand, an type we can get.
but we have to limit 2 boxes per customer, (not to be an asshole) but we have found that,
some customer's we have never met, was buying all they could get, just to flip it on the internet.(for profit)
there words not mine.
Plus we have to set some back, for every 22 in stock (rifle, pistol, revo,) just to make the sale, can't sale a rifle, pistol if we don't have ammo to go with it.
sometimes we hear customers tell us they do not even own a 22 but, buy all the ammo they can find,
because some day they plane to get one, an want plenty of ammo when they do.
now had do you respond to such thinking as that,
after the owner of the shop, has fingered these people, he tells them we our out of ammo for 22lr
just so he has some left for the people that do indeed shoot.
YO
ps BERTMAN77MK2 got you down

 

[JG26_Irish]

If you are stocking up on .22LR for self defense or a coming revolution, I would suggest you rethink your strategy to include a round that can't be stopped by several layers of thick clothing.

I think I will start stocking up on 50BMG just in case I want to buy a M2 or Barrett someday, lol. I have to agree that 22lr is one of the last choices I would make for self defense. But also would say that I have seen it kill a man just as dead as any other bullet. Finally, want to share something from a recent range day with my daughter and her boy friend. Most of you here are I would expect, better than average marksmen who know how to hit their target with whatever weapon they choose, right? I took my daughter (who is an experienced shooter but who does not shoot often) and her boy friend (who has almost zero shooting experience) to my local range to try out several weapons. We went during the week so as to have the range to ourselves and I spent time on teaching basic safety, and handling of each piece as we went. Deciding to have desert before the meat and potatoes, I had them firing my M16 first at a IPSC tgt at 50yds. Both in semi and full fun settings. The BF was interested in it and the other tactical rifles and I was out to make a point also.

Out of 40 shots fired, they hit the tgt 4 times (likely the 4 semi-auto shots) with one of those being a ricochet in the dirt. Not unusual for inexperienced shooters dealing with the excitement of full auto. We then set them up on benches with one of my tactical 22 rifles and a 17hmr rifle. Both are proven performers. Shooting at a USBR tgt from sand bags at 50yds they both immediately began to drill 9's and 10's which within 20 rds apiece boosted their confidence immensely. We then advanced using the same rifles, to shooting 2-3 inch pieces of broken orange clay birds at 230yds. I was spotting for them with my scope and both of them could hit the small clay birds within 3-4 shots at each. That with 22lr or 17hmr. Wind was not blowing at all that day. I was pleased to no end to see their looks of pride/pleasure/accomplishment when they busted those first long range shots. It was priceless and two shooting converts were made that day.

I ask you, if you were sitting at 200 yds from my group and they had the option of shooting at you with either an iron sight M16 in FA or a 22lr scoped with a 6-24x mil-dot scope? Granted the 22 at 200 yds has about as much energy as a sling shot, but it will still hurt and when the marksmen (and women) have the skill to hit you in either the left or right eye at will?, well I think I have made my point. With the 22 an untrained marksman with about 2hrs instruction can be converted into a very dangerous man. More importantly, with the same 22lr he or she can hunt and provide critical fresh protein food such as squirrel, rabbit, duck, goose, even deer in a survival situation (not legal sport hunting) for weeks with only one brick of ammo. 22 ammo is compact, light, portable, quiet, etc. Yeah, Yeah, I know I could scope the black rifle and it would be much more effective but, here is my reasoning for not doing that. I have other bolt action and semi-auto scoped rifles that are more accurate, more powerful and more effective for shooting at ranges in excess of 200yds. Why add the extra weight and complexity of a scope to what is a very effective short to medium range weapon system? Now if one faces a situation where you can only choose one gun? Then it is a different case. In that case, my go-to is a Colt CAR15 shorty with the original compact 3x bullet drop compensating scope in a see-thru mount. Small, light, portable, 30rd capacity, reliable, and accurate enough out to 300yds or maybe a bit more. I cannot hit prairie dogs at 300yds with it, but I can hit the larger varmints.

If the world went to Hell, and I was facing a bug out to a remote location on short notice, the first gun I would grab is my 45 (which is always nearby), the 2nd would be my 22lr hunting rifle and ammo. I would grab my bible too. I would still grab the AR, M16 or one or two of the other black rifles but they would not see as much service unless things got really bad. That might?? be why some folks want massive quantities of 22lr. As for me, I just shoot a lot in practice and in matches, like to hunt and want enough to feed my habits. I am not all that pleased when our capitalist system gets so tied into knots that it cannot respond to legitimate market signals better than it has so far. It speaks volumes to what is wrong these days and to what needs to change. When enough citizens become disenfranchised with the "System", the system often changes in a precipitous manner. Examples: American Revolution, French Revolution, the Scottish Highlanders led by William Wallace over the King of England, Bolshevik Revolution, Iranian Revolt over the Shah. Libya revolt recently, and the rise of the Nazis in Germany. The list is long. The problem with rapid precipitous change is that it is not always for the better.... Our founding fathers knew this better than most Americans today. They lived it first hand. They built into our constitution a means and method to affect peaceful change. We just need to protect and defend and use our constitution and the rights it grants and remind our leaders that they serve us and serve at our pleasure and not the other way round. We have the best, most f-ed up system in the world and we have been fat, dumb and happy too long. It is time for all of us to get off our fat A$$es and get to work.

Irish

 

[BoilerUP]

Again read those before mentioned books, 22 not gold or silver will become the new currency and if not I will have lots and lots of fun shooting it.

You realize those are works of fiction, right?

I mean its your money, spend it when and how you want to, but prepper porn probably isn't the best way to glean investment advice.

 

[DocUSMCRetired]

You realize those are works of fiction, right?

I mean its your money, spend it when and how you want to, but prepper porn probably isn't the best way to glean investment advice.

I would say you should have at least 1000 rounds on hand. No incredibly unrealistic numbers, but 1000 rounds could be helpful in the even of a serious natural disaster like Katrina was. My grandfather lives in Venice LA and when Katrina hit it was bad, however he did have enough ammo to feed himself for a year easily. Granted he didn't need to go that long, he just needed to feed himself for about a month. But still a month is a month. So outrageous prepping probably isn't necessary. But I would say have enough to zero a weapon, and feed yourself for a month or two is smart.

 

[rdinak]

I have seen the light and decided to reload 9mm until the availability of .22 improves.

 

[Charger442]

Read books. Patriots , Expatriots, survivors, founders. Then you can tell me how my 120k rounds of 22 is hoarding. More like a necessity

if you base your ammo purchases on, and justify your hoarding habit through, post-apocalyptic fiction books, you may need to re-evaluate some life choices.


oh and I dont know why you are typing here on Snipershide, you should be out trying to take down and stop Cyberdyne, like, yesterday. 120K rounds of 22lr will also be tough to carry out on the Road.